RAIL - Back On Track Forum

QuoteIt will cost alot of tax payer funds to run trains every 7.5 mins from Darra through to the city as well as Northgate to the city and  Park road to the city. Unsustainable for the budget with guards, drivers and security onboard 7 days until late. 20 mins or better off-peak and 15 mins peak should be appealing frequency to improve patronage until 2032.

Well, some on this forum seem to think that the costs for such additional services would be negligible in the overall scheme of things? What's your view on that??

I don't think 20 min frequencies will stimulate passenger growth the way 15 min services would due to 15 min being the minimum for turn up and go.

I think Springfield services should be run at 15 min frequency all day until 7 PM (shorter line means lower cost to roll out than a longer line). During this time the Ipswich services should be run on an all-day express pattern (express running will reduce costs marginally as well plus the faster trip will stimulate some extra pax to take the train).

Quote from: #Metro on August 31, 2019, 20:24:41 PM

QuoteIt will cost alot of tax payer funds to run trains every 7.5 mins from Darra through to the city as well as Northgate to the city and  Park road to the city. Unsustainable for the budget with guards, drivers and security onboard 7 days until late. 20 mins or better off-peak and 15 mins peak should be appealing frequency to improve patronage until 2032.

Well, some on this forum seem to think that the costs for such additional services would be negligible in the overall scheme of things? What's your view on that??

I don't think 20 min frequencies will stimulate passenger growth the way 15 min services would due to 15 min being the minimum for turn up and go.

I think Springfield services should be run at 15 min frequency all day until 7 PM (shorter line means lower cost to roll out than a longer line). During this time the Ipswich services should be run on an all-day express pattern (express running will reduce costs marginally as well plus the faster trip will stimulate some extra pax to take the train).

I don't believe that express patterns are viable to Ipswich until track is amplified to Redbank inline with Toowoomba services. Yes cost will be too much with the current wage agreement and the crew needed to run the trains every 15 mins 7 days throughout the Brisbane basin.

Trains already run express in peak, so why is track amplification needed for express services outside of the peak?

Quote from: #Metro on August 31, 2019, 21:13:04 PM
Trains already run express in peak, so why is track amplification needed for express services outside of the peak?

Yeah I know but there is also the need to run frequent all stop trains. So yes amplification is important.

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 31, 2019, 21:57:00 PM

Quote from: #Metro on August 31, 2019, 21:13:04 PM
Trains already run express in peak, so why is track amplification needed for express services outside of the peak?

Yeah I know but there is also the need to run frequent all stop trains. So yes amplification is important.

The stops in-between are covered by Springfield trains.  Ipswich line passengers for intermediate stations would just change at Darra if Ipswich was to go 30 min full-time express and Springfield 15 mins all-stops.

Same as Beenleigh/GC at Beenleigh for the all-stoppers and Nambour/Caboolture at Petrie for the Redcliffe trains.

Quote from: Arnz on August 31, 2019, 22:24:11 PM

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 31, 2019, 21:57:00 PM

Quote from: #Metro on August 31, 2019, 21:13:04 PM
Trains already run express in peak, so why is track amplification needed for express services outside of the peak?

Yeah I know but there is also the need to run frequent all stop trains. So yes amplification is important.

The stops in-between are covered by Springfield trains.  Ipswich line passengers for intermediate stations would just change at Darra if Ipswich was to go 30 min full-time express and Springfield 15 mins all-stops.

Same as Beenleigh/GC at Beenleigh for the all-stoppers and Nambour/Caboolture at Petrie for the Redcliffe trains.

Still cost too much and doesn't solve the stops needed from Darra to Redbank and from Redbank to Booval.

20 mins or better would provide a network wide solution in the Brisbane basin intensifying frequency where needed in the higher density areas. While providing extra frequency in low density areas.

Quote from: #Metro on August 31, 2019, 21:13:04 PM
Trains already run express in peak, so why is track amplification needed for express services outside of the peak?

You can lock out freight for 4 hours a day. Not really for 15.

That's my understanding of the problem anyway. Slow freight trains eat track capacity for breakfast. As do expresses!

If suburban expresses prevent the core all-stations from running frequently - and by frequent I mean 10 minutes or better - it's a hard no from me.

Quote from: AnonymouslyBad on August 31, 2019, 22:37:10 PM

Quote from: #Metro on August 31, 2019, 21:13:04 PM
Trains already run express in peak, so why is track amplification needed for express services outside of the peak?

You can lock out freight for 4 hours a day. Not really for 15.

That's my understanding of the problem anyway. Slow freight trains eat track capacity for breakfast. As do expresses!

If suburban expresses prevent the core all-stations from running frequently - and by frequent I mean 10 minutes or better - it's a hard no from me.

Yes that too! Freight along the lines can't support 15 mins or better 7 days. While 20 mins or better is doable. Another reason for amplification to Redbank

Quote from: timh on August 31, 2019, 17:52:57 PM
Really unfortunate

At the very least the duplication though would still be a no brainer, at least to Hendra. Dead simple. Just lay the track.

To get to Ascot they'd probably want to remove the LX at Zillman road, and past Ascot there's the Nudgee road LX and those funny little rail bridges near the racecourse. So that may be slightly trickier but not impossible.

Hamilton extension still doable as AFAIK the corridor is still there, it's just a makeshift parking lot. I don't think the land was sold. Skyrail would be the way to go now though, as I think BCC/TMR would be hesitant to chop up KSD again since they only just finished putting that bit back together...

You reckon it's worth bringing this point up again with the powers that be? Re: Doomben duplication+Hamilton extension, or do we have bigger fish to fry at the moment?

I spoke with the Quest journalist a few months ago who really gets why the Doomben line needs performance improvements.  Just waiting for now ..

I'd like it confirmed by QR whether Springfield line can support 15 min all day.

Expresses to Ipswich all day needs to be confirmed too.

Quote from: #Metro on September 01, 2019, 02:04:29 AM
I'd like it confirmed by QR whether Springfield line can support 15 min all day.

Expresses to Ipswich all day needs to be confirmed too.

I'm not QR but I honestly can't see any reason that Springfield can't run 15 minutes all day. It's basically got 2 dedicated tracks all the way to Roma St.

Ipswich might be a different issue, because of freight. If the Springfield trains run on the subs Darra-Roma St and the Ipswich trains run on the mains and are express Darra to Milton stopping at Indooroopilly (the current express pattern), they might catch up to freight trains ahead of them.

Also I guess there's the issue of the flat junction at Corinda, being that most of the freight from the west is headed toward the port.

Quote from: AnonymouslyBad on August 31, 2019, 22:37:10 PM

Quote from: #Metro on August 31, 2019, 21:13:04 PM
Trains already run express in peak, so why is track amplification needed for express services outside of the peak?

You can lock out freight for 4 hours a day. Not really for 15.

That's my understanding of the problem anyway. Slow freight trains eat track capacity for breakfast. As do expresses!

If suburban expresses prevent the core all-stations from running frequently - and by frequent I mean 10 minutes or better - it's a hard no from me.

Freight trains are actually quite quick but it's the junctions at Roma Street and Corinda/Tennyson (25kph and the length of the freight train to slowly traverse the multiple points), all stoppers or late running passenger trains that slow them down. Exhibition-Caboolture a freight train generally takes the same time as the current Caboolture/Nambour express train (freight limited to 80kph but gain the time back by not stopping). Start throwing yellows and red signals at them and suddenly they just eat up so much capacity (atp in the inner city would help freights a bit). At night you'll see them flying on greens but when the yellows and double yellows come out they really, really have to drop their speed as a result. Sometimes this is where the lack of freight priority hurts as if it had priority it would drop the all stopper instead of following it on restricted signals.

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 31, 2019, 20:18:46 PMIt will cost alot of tax payer funds to run trains every 7.5 mins from Darra through to the city as well as Northgate to the city and  Park road to the city. Unsustainable under the current budget with guards, drivers and security onboard 7 days until late. 20 mins or better off-peak and 15 mins peak should be an appealing frequency to improve patronage until 2032.

Has anyone ever been on a train after 7pm? They are basically 25% full. It doesn't justify services running every 15 mins and 7.5 mins.

20 mins or better would address overall frequency gaps and improve services and crosstown trips under current and proposed infrastructure improvements.

Given the sort of cretins which roam the network after 7pm, the poor frequency and lack of safety at night, I would see 25% full as incredibly encouraging. Imagine if the frequency was doubled, the network cleaned up and the cost made less expensive than driving for short-distance trips - you'd have people everywhere getting on board the network. You'd see more than a doubling of patronage.

Quote from: #Metro on September 01, 2019, 02:04:29 AMI'd like it confirmed by QR whether Springfield line can support 15 min all day.

Expresses to Ipswich all day needs to be confirmed too.

I think the every 15 minutes to Springfield is more about serving the intermediate stations, and hence allowing the Ipswich line to be 2tph express, rather than the current situation of 2tph each between SPC/IPS.

As it currently stands, the Ipswich line expresses save 8 minutes in peak hour. Between each Springfield Central train there is a 15 minute gap - even after accounting for the 3 mins either side you would need to give each Springfield train the required buffer, there's still 9 minutes in there to run an Ipswich express train. So in theory (ignoring the need to coordinate connections), it would be possible to use only two tracks Roma Street - Darra, leaving the other two clear for freight operations.

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 31, 2019, 20:13:50 PMAged care facility going in on the Eastern side of Doomben race course. Not a fan of duplicating the Doomben line this area should be converted to LRT.

The appeal of LRT would be as a "shiny new operation", rather than any operational benefit. The only benefit of LRT I can see is that it could simply cross roads at-grade or run along some local streets as needed.

If the state got serious about heavy rail and reserved a corridor now, this wouldn't be an issue.

Quote from: James on September 01, 2019, 11:42:31 AM

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 31, 2019, 20:13:50 PMAged care facility going in on the Eastern side of Doomben race course. Not a fan of duplicating the Doomben line this area should be converted to LRT.

The appeal of LRT would be as a "shiny new operation", rather than any operational benefit. The only benefit of LRT I can see is that it could simply cross roads at-grade or run along some local streets as needed.

If the state got serious about heavy rail and reserved a corridor now, this wouldn't be an issue.

I see no benefit in converting Doomben to Light rail. The line is a commuter service that runs through a mostly residential area. LRT works well for an area with frequent stops at trip generators (see Glink that stops at shopping centres, tourist attractions, etc). No one really wants to travel between Doomben and Eagle Junction as a destination. I feel like most of the patronage is headed to the city.

Doomben line just needs to be upgraded (ie duplicated with improved frequency) to the point where locals actually see it as a convenient transport option.


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" ... Doomben line just needs to be upgraded (ie duplicated with improved frequency) to the point where locals actually see it as a convenient transport option.  ... "

AMEN ! 

And run seven days a week ..  Doomben is a high priority for #Target400

Doomben line has heritage value, so that weighs against conversion.

Quote from: #Metro on September 01, 2019, 14:24:08 PM
Doomben line has heritage value, so that weighs against conversion.

What about the St Kilda line in Mel and the Lilyfield line in Syd. All heritage lines and successfully converted to LRT with heritage aspects retained. 

Quote from: verbatim9 on September 01, 2019, 14:36:03 PM

Quote from: #Metro on September 01, 2019, 14:24:08 PM
Doomben line has heritage value, so that weighs against conversion.

What about the St Kilda line in Mel and the Lilyfield line in Syd. All heritage lines and successfully converted to LRT with heritage aspects retained.

V.  Melbourne has a tram network, Ditto Sydney ...

brisBANE is in cloud cuckoo land sadly ...

The defence rests ..   

It has heritage signalling, what would happen to that?

Quote from: #Metro on September 01, 2019, 14:58:45 PM
It has heritage signalling, what would happen to that?

The semaphores were decommissioned many years ago Metro. The value of the Doomben line is apparent.  It is a class A ROW through a seriously congested road mess and offers fast safe transport to and from the CBD. In view of the developments of late it is now even more crucial to get it working right.  The line has a chequered history, but now is the hour !!

COME ON DOWN DOOMBEN LINE !!   

Quote from: verbatim9 on September 01, 2019, 14:36:03 PM

Quote from: #Metro on September 01, 2019, 14:24:08 PM
Doomben line has heritage value, so that weighs against conversion.

What about the St Kilda line in Mel and the Lilyfield line in Syd. All heritage lines and successfully converted to LRT with heritage aspects retained.

I don't see any 24 hour casinos or hugely dense development coming for the immediate environs of the line apart from Hamilton itself, unlike those examples.  In fact, basically every "light rail" service in Australia (in Melbourne the 2 tram routes specifically called that) services a casino and a major entertainment precinct.

is probably best served by light rail heading directly into the city (or at least a proper BUZ route).

Do you think a casino could go in at Hamilton Portside?

I'd be fine with it being converted to a shuttle, with a new platform at EJ and an extension to Northshore. It probably only needs a passing loop halfway along to permit a 15 min service.

Quote from: Gazza on September 02, 2019, 14:06:00 PM
I'd be fine with it being converted to a shuttle, with a new platform at EJ and an extension to Northshore. It probably only needs a passing loop halfway along to permit a 15 min service.

Might as well convert it to LRT run it to Skygate and to the cruise terminal, as well as to Portside and Hamilton Northshore. This area is also earmarked as one of the proposed Olympic sites #BneOlympics2032 with a New Stadium, Aquatic centre and Village.

Quote from: verbatim9 on September 02, 2019, 17:42:14 PM

Quote from: Gazza on September 02, 2019, 14:06:00 PM
I'd be fine with it being converted to a shuttle, with a new platform at EJ and an extension to Northshore. It probably only needs a passing loop halfway along to permit a 15 min service.

Might as well convert it to LRT run it to Skygate and to the cruise terminal, as well as to Portside and Hamilton Northshore. This area is also earmarked as one of the proposed Olympic sites #BneOlympics2032 with a New Stadium, Aquatic centre and Village.

But before then on most key lines 20mins or better would be ideal. Doomben line every 40mins Sat night Sunday and Public Holidays?

Quote from: verbatim9 on September 02, 2019, 17:42:14 PM

Quote from: Gazza on September 02, 2019, 14:06:00 PM
I'd be fine with it being converted to a shuttle, with a new platform at EJ and an extension to Northshore. It probably only needs a passing loop halfway along to permit a 15 min service.

Might as well convert it to LRT run it to Skygate and to the cruise terminal, as well as to Portside and Hamilton Northshore. This area is also earmarked as one of the proposed Olympic sites #BneOlympics2032 with a New Stadium, Aquatic centre and Village.

Apart from a reduction in capacity of the line, what will conversion to light rail bring that duplication, extensions and additional platforms at Eagle Junction won't?

Quote from: Cazza on September 02, 2019, 17:52:34 PM

Quote from: verbatim9 on September 02, 2019, 17:42:14 PM

Quote from: Gazza on September 02, 2019, 14:06:00 PM
I'd be fine with it being converted to a shuttle, with a new platform at EJ and an extension to Northshore. It probably only needs a passing loop halfway along to permit a 15 min service.

Might as well convert it to LRT run it to Skygate and to the cruise terminal, as well as to Portside and Hamilton Northshore. This area is also earmarked as one of the proposed Olympic sites #BneOlympics2032 with a New Stadium, Aquatic centre and Village.

Apart from a reduction in capacity of the line, what will conversion to light rail bring that duplication, extensions and additional platforms at Eagle Junction won't?

The main thing I can see is the possibility of on-street running where there is no reserved rail corridor.

Quote from: Cazza on September 02, 2019, 17:52:34 PM

Quote from: verbatim9 on September 02, 2019, 17:42:14 PM

Quote from: Gazza on September 02, 2019, 14:06:00 PM
I'd be fine with it being converted to a shuttle, with a new platform at EJ and an extension to Northshore. It probably only needs a passing loop halfway along to permit a 15 min service.

Might as well convert it to LRT run it to Skygate and to the cruise terminal, as well as to Portside and Hamilton Northshore. This area is also earmarked as one of the proposed Olympic sites #BneOlympics2032 with a New Stadium, Aquatic centre and Village.

Apart from a reduction in capacity of the line, what will conversion to light rail bring that duplication, extensions and additional platforms at Eagle Junction won't?

LRT is far cheaper to run than heavy rail.

Grain Corp still has the contract for services open. From what I understand they want to keep options open/expansion for their facility there as we have seen with watco about to haul grain to their fisherman's island depot. Lrt is foam and the discussion on the doomben line lrt conversion should move on.

A study should be done.

LRT would be cheaper to run because there would be no guard.
However, you would need a depot.

LRT would also be able to penetrate into the development better than heavy rail.

LRT would probably have to terminate at Eagle Junction, but could run frequently.

The other option would be to convert it to a busway, possibly guided for part of its length. Feed into Eagle Junction.

The frequency would be excellent then, also cheaper than either LRT or train. No new depot required either.

I don't think it would be cheaper, it lacks the economies of scale of Just minorly  updating an existing service versus ripping up and essentially starting from scratch with new low level platforms, new depot, new stock, new DC power system etc.

Quote from: Gazza on September 02, 2019, 20:38:23 PM
I don't think it would be cheaper, it lacks the economies of scale of Just minorly  updating an existing service versus ripping up and essentially starting from scratch with new low level platforms, new depot, new stock, new DC power system etc.

+1. There's very little benefit of  LRTing the line (considering the enormous upfront cost) over just doing very minor infrastructural work to improve frequency with the current heavy rail. And as HTG said the line is still open to freight. If Light rail were to ever come to Brisbane there would be much better places to put it first

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Quote from: timh on September 02, 2019, 21:07:32 PM

Quote from: Gazza on September 02, 2019, 20:38:23 PM
I don't think it would be cheaper, it lacks the economies of scale of Just minorly  updating an existing service versus ripping up and essentially starting from scratch with new low level platforms, new depot, new stock, new DC power system etc.

+1. There's very little benefit of  LRTing the line (considering the enormous upfront cost) over just doing very minor infrastructural work to improve frequency with the current heavy rail. And as HTG said the line is still open to freight. If Light rail were to ever come to Brisbane there would be much better places to put it first

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If an Olympic Village and Sporting arena
is ever announced out there near Hamilton? Then for certain it would be beneficial to convert to LRT. Don't think the residents would want it down Kingsford Smith drive.

Until then, the Doomben line every 40 Mins or better Saturday night, Sundays and Public Holidays. The other main lines off peak 20mins or better. Rather buy some more new trains, and duplicate the Sunshine coast line, than duplicate the Doomben line anyway.

I think the buses would be a goer, could run every 15 min all day, excellent match with trains at Eagle Junction

Studies??? Busways??? Olympic venues??? Oh for gods sake. If an Olympic venue ever went in there it would be easier and cheaper to just duplicate the line. The hardest part would be doing Hendra and Eagle junction as the rest of the line is already set up for duplication. Busway is just p%ssing money away. Nothing built up along it. No need for a study when it's still a freight corridor. Ideas closed.

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on September 02, 2019, 19:34:21 PM
Grain Corp still has the contract for services open. From what I understand they want to keep options open/expansion for their facility there as we have seen with watco about to haul grain to their fisherman's island depot. Lrt is foam and the discussion on the doomben line lrt conversion should move on.

Yo.  Not hard to improve Citytrain services on the Doomben line.  I would like to see it running for 7 days a week for a start.

If anyone wants to discuss the conversion of the Doomben line to LRT please start a new thread.  This thread is really about 20 minute off peak frequency on Citytrain. 

All star cast:

https://youtu.be/PlkSwDzrR6U

Quote from: #Metro on September 03, 2019, 09:04:04 AM
All star cast:

https://youtu.be/PlkSwDzrR6U

This video is posted here >> https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=13665.msg226622#msg226622

Quote from: verbatim9 on September 02, 2019, 21:43:30 PM

If an Olympic Village and Sporting arena
is ever announced out there near Hamilton? Then for certain it would be beneficial to convert to LRT. Don't think the residents would want it down Kingsford Smith drive.

If an Olympic sporting arena were built then heavy rail would provide better capacity for special events, and would be able to leverage the ample spare capacity in the QR fleet outside peak (Which gets used for special events all across SEQ, eg Boondall, Robina, Ekka, Milton)
This would be cheaper than buying extra trams for events that only happen at this new Olympic arena.

Re Outcomes from the Ministers meeting.

Now that the cat is out of the bag regarding funding and resources not being available for 15 mins or better network wide, it's time to push for 20 mins or better as a staged solution. This can be easily achieved with the current infrastructure in place along with a few tweaks.

Benefits include

Faster cross town trips

Turn up and go with 10 mins or better from Darra to Roma Street as well as on the inner north and south lines.

Better off peak frequency, especially on weekends.

As well as many more...

***20 mins or better 7 days from 7am-9pm with frequency dropping back to 30mins or better outside those times except for the current BUZ services and event services.

TBH , RBOT has been advocating for nearly 20 years on 15 mins or better and it's still unlikely to come into fruition, as a result of the minister's meeting last week. Thus, 20 mins or better will be a huge improvement for the travelling public.