Discussion on 20 minute off peak frequency

[HappyTrainGuy]

What about the mtce sector?? Or the hellwith them?

[achiruel]

What about the mtce sector?? Or the hellwith them?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Schedules for rollingstock, crews available to undertake the additional load and the facilities to do so. And the costs associated with doing so. Remember just because the train isn't in the sheds doesn't mean that any mtce is being undertaken on them.

[verbatim9]

While I don't mind staying up the night.  The overall 20 minute proposal is going to end up moot in a few years as we don't have the drivers for it in the first place for the next 2-4 years.

Small steps first, let's get a Mon-Fri consistent timetable back for 2019 with the Cleveland, Shorncliffe and Ipswich gaps filled first.  That should not take much extra resources.  Then work on restoring the October 2016 timetable from there.

By the time QR does get enough drivers with excess, whatever incarnation of "ConnectingSEQ" the current state government posts up will be posting either "4TPH" or better on their glossy posters.  Thus it's likely by that point, politicians and gunzels will be debating 15 mins or better on all rail lines (maybe also debating whether Beerwah/Landsborough should be included), with the exceptions of Rosewood, beyond Landsborough (and perhaps) Doomben.

I tend to disagree. The best option is an affordable network wide solution of 20mins or better rather than 15mins or better. Especially with 9 car sets coming into play with CRR. It would be a strain on the budget as well as money that was meant to go into extending trains south to Coolangatta and other vital infrastructure will go into more trains and wages for empty trains that run off-peak. Such a waste. 20mins or better is a network solution best for Brisbane's population until higher density occurs in the late 2020's early 2030's, while providing ample peak and counter peak services network wide.

[Arnz]

While I don't mind staying up the night.  The overall 20 minute proposal is going to end up moot in a few years as we don't have the drivers for it in the first place for the next 2-4 years.

Small steps first, let's get a Mon-Fri consistent timetable back for 2019 with the Cleveland, Shorncliffe and Ipswich gaps filled first.  That should not take much extra resources.  Then work on restoring the October 2016 timetable from there.

By the time QR does get enough drivers with excess, whatever incarnation of "ConnectingSEQ" the current state government posts up will be posting either "4TPH" or better on their glossy posters.  Thus it's likely by that point, politicians and gunzels will be debating 15 mins or better on all rail lines (maybe also debating whether Beerwah/Landsborough should be included), with the exceptions of Rosewood, beyond Landsborough (and perhaps) Doomben.

I tend to disagree. The best option is an affordable network wide solution of 20mins or better rather than 15mins or better. Especially with 9 car sets coming into play with CRR. It would be a strain on the budget as well as money that was meant to go into extending trains south to Coolangatta and other vital infrastructure will go into more trains and wages for empty trains that run off-peak. Such a waste. 20mins or better is a network solution best for Brisbane's population until higher density occurs in the late 2020's early 2030's, while providing ample peak and counter peak services network wide.

We don't have the drivers for the next 4 years at maximum (taking into consideration driver attritution such as retirements or promotion to trainers, or drivers moving to elsewhere either in QR or to the freight companies Aurizon or PN).  Plus theres the EBA requirements such as driver breaks, and as HTG pointed out, MTCE requirements to upkeep the reliability of the train fleet.

Edit: Where it was possible to convert some (peak-forming) empty movements to passenger services in the past, may no longer be possible for some empty services due to the changed EBA requirements for drivers.

Besides, there is barely anyone catching cross-town services (either bus or train) in the first place if we apply the feeder bus argument (outside of GC or SC) to that as well. Most cross-town potential passengers on either bus or trains drive, not much is going to change that, and that's just the way it is.

Counter peak traffic especially around the inner Ipswich line is strong due to the commercial development in the area.

By the time the driver issue is fixed in 4 years at the maximum (which by then the population would've grown), pollies/gunzels will be debating over 15 mins or better across most of the network where infrastructure permits.  At least from Landsborough/Beerwah/Kippa-Ring (Caloundra instead of Landsborough/Beerwah in a further 3-4 years) to Ipswich/Springfield and Shorncliffe/Airport/Ferny Grove to Manly/Gold Coast/Kuraby via CRR or via South Brisbane.

[HappyTrainGuy]

You know its foam when 7 or 9 car sets make an appearance in this forum.

9 car sets are well and truly off and internally inside QR 9 car sets are the preferred option instead of providing a higher frequency (this is the current case for Roma Street and north - more than likely running on a capped 15 minute frequency since its a long distance service where frequency doesn't need to be as high with more emphasis put on increasing the frequency of short haul services which actually require the higher frequency). Any 9 car sets will be restricted to CRR/Gold Coast + Trouts Road and or Landsborough-CAMCOS extension only.

[SurfRail]

^ Honestly, who cares what QR's preference is?  I would have thought that decades of crap were enough to disabuse anybody of the notion that they know what they are doing, or what is good for the region at large.

That said - 20 minute headways are unworkable and will break critical network connections with bus services unless we want to spend another 50% on all connecting services even if there are higher network priorities elsewhere.

[achiruel]

That said - 20 minute headways are unworkable and will break critical network connections with bus services unless we want to spend another 50% on all connecting services even if there are higher network priorities elsewhere.

This.

[James]

The problems with 20 minute frequency are this (ignoring the lack of drivers and rolling stock, although that's two right off the bat):

1. Is it almost frequent. It is almost good enough. It isn't quite 15 minute frequency (which is the minimum required for turn up and go). It's an improvement, but not much really.
2. It does not connect with half-hourly bus services running into rail, of which there are a number all over SEQ. Sure, a lot of routes are hourly, but are timed such that they provide a half-hourly frequency to a certain commercial centre, or spend half an hour on one side of a suburb, then half an hour on the other side.
3. When downgraded to lower levels of frequency late at night/in the early morning, it turns into unworkable 40 minute frequency. And from my experience in Melbourne, 40 minute frequency sucks - I'd rather just have hourly trains because at least I can remember when they will go.

Personally, I would rather see 15 minute frequency concentrated in select areas with some areas missing out, rather than everybody getting 20 minutes. Then we can get BUZ routes feeding into rail stations.

This topic has been done to death anyway, it is like the 'HSR to the Gold Coast' threads, has been talked about too many times. Time to move on and put our energy into something more productive, e.g. extending Coopers Plains terminators to Altandi - which could happen today FWIW.

[tazzer9]

My 2 cents.  The topic focus is on off peak frequency.  Changing that has very little bearing on peak frequency.  feeder buses are only used well on the gold coast and southern logan areas.   Ipswich and sunshine coast area the buses run are well patronised but do run at such low frequencies changing timetables isn't too hard.  In the brisbane there there is FA feeder services.

I have stated this in the past, i would love the focus on weekday 15 minute services, but 20 minute services on the weekends.  All on the current weekday stopping patterns.   
Only exception would be sunny coast on 80 min frequency.  rosewood remain 60 minute, and extra 3 car only northgate- park road services every 20 mins (so northgate - EJ has 10 min frequency). 

The thing about 20 minute services compared to 15 minutes services is that 20 min frequency is very easily accomplish-able and would be reliable on our network.  Only hairy points would be the beenleigh-GC line which on the weekend could easily be made up by using the third road, and the landsborough-nambour section on 80 minute frequency and the doomben line, which could be made 40 minute frequency if its too hard, and still an improvement over the current hourly services. 

[verbatim9]

My 2 cents.  The topic focus is on off peak frequency.  Changing that has very little bearing on peak frequency.  feeder buses are only used well on the gold coast and southern logan areas.   Ipswich and sunshine coast area the buses run are well patronised but do run at such low frequencies changing timetables isn't too hard.  In the brisbane there there is FA feeder services.

I have stated this in the past, i would love the focus on weekday 15 minute services, but 20 minute services on the weekends.  All on the current weekday stopping patterns.   
Only exception would be sunny coast on 80 min frequency.  rosewood remain 60 minute, and extra 3 car only northgate- park road services every 20 mins (so northgate - EJ has 10 min frequency). 

The thing about 20 minute services compared to 15 minutes services is that 20 min frequency is very easily accomplish-able and would be reliable on our network.  Only hairy points would be the beenleigh-GC line which on the weekend could easily be made up by using the third road, and the landsborough-nambour section on 80 minute frequency and the doomben line, which could be made 40 minute frequency if its too hard, and still an improvement over the current hourly services.

Just to let people know with advanced computer timetabling and rostering systems that rail and bus operators have at their disposal. You can have a mixture of 20/15 mins or better. Example the Sandringham Line is every 30 then every 20 then every 10 back to 15 then at the end of the day every 20 then every 30 with late night trains.

Every 30/20 mins on weekends and public holidays

https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/langsing/timetable/pdf?net=vic&line=02SDM&project=ttb&sup=D&itdLPxx_selLineDir=R&itdLPxx_selWDType=&global_line=28&contentFilter=ALLSTOPS

[ozbob]

Pakenham line is 20 minute off peak, Cranbourne line 20 minute off peak, in from Dandenong overlap = 10 minute trains.

That works fine.  When you have good frequency the bus connections are not really an issue.

[Otto]

Hastus is what is used by Translink / Bcc for scheduling /  Timetables

http://www.giro.ca/en/solutions/bus-metro-tram

http://www.giro.ca/en/solutions/passenger-rail

[achiruel]

Hastus is what is used by Translink / Bcc for scheduling /  Timetables

http://www.giro.ca/en/solutions/bus-metro-tram

http://www.giro.ca/en/solutions/passenger-rail

Not being familiar with either of these products, is it possible to integrate HASTUS and HASTUS-Rail to allow whole-of-network planning to take place? Or is this simply impossible?

Pakenham line is 20 minute off peak, Cranbourne line 20 minute off peak, in from Dandenong overlap = 10 minute trains.

That works fine.  When you have good frequency the bus connections are not really an issue.

Brisbane doesn't really have any branches that split that far out from the CBD, though. Dandenong is about 37km from the CBD, our most distant branch point is Petrie at about 27.

[Arnz]

Hastus is what is used by Translink / Bcc for scheduling /  Timetables

http://www.giro.ca/en/solutions/bus-metro-tram

http://www.giro.ca/en/solutions/passenger-rail

Not being familiar with either of these products, is it possible to integrate HASTUS and HASTUS-Rail to allow whole-of-network planning to take place? Or is this simply impossible?

Pakenham line is 20 minute off peak, Cranbourne line 20 minute off peak, in from Dandenong overlap = 10 minute trains.

That works fine.  When you have good frequency the bus connections are not really an issue.

Brisbane doesn't really have any branches that split that far out from the CBD, though. Dandenong is about 37km from the CBD, our most distant branch point is Petrie at about 27.

Didn't the rail network had a different timetabling provider from memory.  Some company from Canada from memory?

Edit: Scratch that: QR are listed here as one of the GIRO (Canada) users. http://www.giro.ca/en/solutions/passenger-rail

HASTUS is used across most (if not all) TransLink bus operators from memory.  BCC and the private operators e.g TAG (Sunbus, Surfside), CBL, Logan, etc use HASTUS for driver scheduling.

Another edit: GIRO also warns the scheduler if there's a resource shortage (Drivers, Infrastructure, etc).  As outlined in the October 2016 #RailFail. 

This won't be much different if anyone tried to schedule 15/20 mins to almost everywhere tomorrow or in a few months time.

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/queensland-rail-driver-shortages-more-reports-handed-to-minister-20161101-gsfpcu.html

[verbatim9]

https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9891.msg226218.msg#226218

If Matt wants people to move over from their cars to Public Transport then off peak frequency for trains need to addressed. 15mins or better weekdays and  20 mins or better on Weekends, Public Holidays and Event days.

The off peak service at 2 trains per hour is just token public transport and will not make a dent or influence drivers to make the change to Public transport in Se Qld.
Waiting times, cross town trip duration and safety reasons all citing why people will remain driving off peak.

[HappyTrainGuy]

But here lies the problem. It's not a simple increase one fix. Both the bus network and the rail network need to be done at the same time especially when you consider most of the bus network is hourly. To justify more trains you need more buses running to stations. Too many black spots around the network that metro will not address.

[AnonymouslyBad]

But here lies the problem. It's not a simple increase one fix. Both the bus network and the rail network need to be done at the same time especially when you consider most of the bus network is hourly. To justify more trains you need more buses running to stations. Too many black spots around the network that metro will not address.

Hey, for existing connections to hourly buses, both 3tph and 2tph work fine if they keep one of the times the same :p

Not that BCC fixing their bus network would be a tragedy...

20 minute frequency would overall be a welcome improvement vs. 30 minutes. No, I don't call 20 minutes "high frequency" either but it's markedly better. It does make a difference: a lot of people will still wait for trains that come every 20 minutes (see: Melbourne). At 30 minutes, most people with a choice walk away.

The problem as others have pointed out is that while 30min-->20min is an easy step up, you can't do the same thing for hourly trains. 40min frequency is a terrile idea (again see: Melbourne). So, those services would have to bump up to half hourly to be remotely legible IMO.

[James]

^ This is precisely the problem - makes it very difficult for hourly or half-hourly feeders to meet trains, and like it or not, half-hourly is a much better step for most feeder buses than every 20 mins.

I would much rather see select train services boosted to every 15 minutes, rather than the majority of the network get 15 minutes. 15 minute trains will then make the case to upgrade the rest of the network.

It is also worth noting that 20 minute frequency is the bare minimum frequency for most of the day in Melbourne, with many lines then increasing to every 10 mins. It is only on the Western lines where trains go down to every 40 mins, and only for a few hours on Sunday mornings.

[verbatim9]

15mins or better in peak and 20 mins or better off-peak is a good solution for Bne. Trains are running quite empty past 7pm I can't see the logic nor the cost of going 4tph. The 412 and 444 has a mixture of 15mins or better and 10 mins or better.  Rostering and schedules can easily change from a 30min or better frequency to a 20min or better frequency throughout the day. The Sandringham line in Melbourne was a good example of this  It may have been improved over the last year to 20mins or better 7 days.

[Gazza]

Its not a good solution for BNE.

[ozbob]

The way connections work out here in the wild west, trains running every 20 minutes, buses every 30 minutes connections would be better I reckon.

Total shambles at present ... 

(TIC) 

For the record, Pakenham has a base 20 minute frequency.  Cranbourne base 20 minute frequency, that gives a 10 minute frequency in from Dandenong.  Frankston is 10 minute frequency - that gives 10 minute on stations Caulfield > South Yarra, the Pakenham/Cranbourne express Caulfield to South Yarra.  Train frequency eastern in Melbourne is good.  West has some problems though.

[James]

15mins or better in peak and 20 mins or better off-peak is a good solution for Bne. Trains are running quite empty past 7pm I can't see the logic nor the cost of going 4tph. The 412 and 444 has a mixture of 15mins or better and 10 mins or better.  Rostering and schedules can easily change from a 30min or better frequency to a 20min or better frequency throughout the day. The Sandringham line in Melbourne was a good example of this  It may have been improved over the last year to 20mins or better 7 days.

Again, sweeping statement with no evidence to back it up.

BUZ works. The train frequency upgrades we've seen haven't worked. If you provide decent frequency (every 15 minutes) with decent span of hours (6am - 11pm) and ensure it runs seven days a week (including Sundays), people will come, and you will see massive patronage increases. The frequency allows someone to use the service knowing they're never going to wait more than 15 minutes for a service.

20 minute service is a horrible half-baked solution. We are better off having two lines with 15 minute frequency, than three with 20 minute frequency. The patronage gains in those areas will in turn, drive more services in other areas - all while avoiding mismatching connections!

[verbatim9]

15mins or better in peak and 20 mins or better off-peak is a good solution for Bne. Trains are running quite empty past 7pm I can't see the logic nor the cost of going 4tph. The 412 and 444 has a mixture of 15mins or better and 10 mins or better.  Rostering and schedules can easily change from a 30min or better frequency to a 20min or better frequency throughout the day. The Sandringham line in Melbourne was a good example of this  It may have been improved over the last year to 20mins or better 7 days.

Again, sweeping statement with no evidence to back it up.

BUZ works. The train frequency upgrades we've seen haven't worked. If you provide decent frequency (every 15 minutes) with decent span of hours (6am - 11pm) and ensure it runs seven days a week (including Sundays), people will come, and you will see massive patronage increases. The frequency allows someone to use the service knowing they're never going to wait more than 15 minutes for a service.

20 minute service is a horrible half-baked solution. We are better off having two lines with 15 minute frequency, than three with 20 minute frequency. The patronage gains in those areas will in turn, drive more services in other areas - all while avoiding mismatching connections!

^^15 mins or better not achievable nor affordable under the current conditions, infrastructure and Government. At least 20mins or better is a good solution. It's network wide except  for Gold coast and Sunshine coast. It would provide trains from Northgate to Darra to run 10 mins or better and from Park Road to through to the city 7 days. This would achieve metro frequency, where there is a dense population. Most people would only have to wait 15 mins or less with 20 mins or better. Which is also tolerable.

[achiruel]

I don't have a problem with 20 minute frequency per se, as long as all 30-minute buses that connect with trains are also upgraded to 20 minutes. And all the buses that connect with those buses are also upgrade to 20 minutes, etc. See the problem here? You're breaking dozens of connections.

Fixing broken connections for me would be a higher priority than introducing a marginal improvement in off-peak frequency.

Anyway, if we did go to 15 minute frequency, I don't think it's required everywhere. Kuraby-Beenleigh for example would get marginal benefit. There's not a lot of patronage outside of Woodridge, Loganlea & Beenleigh. The latter two are served by Gold Coast trains anyway, so already have 4tph although not evenly spaced. Woodridge is largely connected by 30 or 60 minute buses, so would really only benefit the minimal walk-up patronage (it's not exactly a dense area). The other problem is it's hideously slow. e.g. 52 minutes Kingston-Central; the bus does it in 43-48 minutes and stops closer to the centre of the CBD so less walking time at the other end. It's more convenient for many peak-hour commuters. North of Kuraby, there's better reasons to have 15-minute frequency. The 150 interchange at Fruitgrove, all the Mains Rd routes at Altandi, the 100 at Moorooka (ok, a bit of a walk at 250m, but fairly easily manageable for most people), the 196 at Fairfield (even more of a walk at 500m, baffles me why they don't terminate at the station instead), and also considerably more built-up density around Dutton Park/Fairfield/Yeronga/Yeerongpilly than in the outer reaches of the line.

TBH I think 4tph for Gold Coast would achieve more than 4tph to Beenleigh. Not sure if anyone's tried working it out, but would 4tph Kuraby/2tph Beenleigh/4tph Gold Coast be achievable? The Logan community IMO would be better served by more (and better!) feeders into Springwood (Kingston/Woodridge area) or Loganholme (Bethania/Beenleigh) than 4tph. Bethania area buses in particular are a giant mess! Probably needs someone with more ability than me but I suspect most Logan-CBD travel is peak hour commuters, most off-peak travel seems to be more local, just from my observations.

[#Metro]

I don't like 20 min trains.

It involves all of the costs and none of the benefits.

It causes a problem with bus connections which are on 30 or 60 min frequencies.

15 min is what is needed to get decent turn up and go happening.

Start with a combined plan to convert guards to drivers, DOO phase in, and boost frequencies.

[SurfRail]

Reality is this:

1. 15 minute off-peak headway in both directions should be achievable using the existing infrastructure, comfortably, to the following:

- Ferny Grove (all the way)
- Shorncliffe (all the way)
- One of Kippa-Ring or Caboolture (all the way)
- One of Ipswich or Springfield Central (all the way) (Rosewood is possible but definitely not required)
- Kuraby
- Manly

It is also possible on the Airport branch but that would presumably require the government funding the extras.

2. Infrastructure upgrades would be required to run train services to 15 minute headways to the following locations in both directions

- Manly to Cleveland (this can happen now but clearly it is unreliable, duplication is needed)
- Kuraby to Varsity Lakes (track amplification is needed somewhere - there is enough room for 4 tracks from Yeerongpilly to Kuraby, and a deviation between Compton Rd and Trinder Park tacked onto that would get speeds up, and that should do quite a bit albeit locking in a crap alignment)
- The other of Ipswich/Springfield and Caboolture/Kippa-Ring (need 4 tracks Petrie to Strathpine minimum from memory, and the southern leg will be doable once the freight all goes via Kagaru).  To compensate you'd throughroute all Springfield services to Kippa-Ring and all Ipswich services to Caboolture and run the Ipswich and Caboolture pattern express full time, then up it to 15 minutes when there is capacity.
- Doomben (probably not a good use of funds in all honesty)
- Sunshine Coast (probably not required in the off-peak but the peak and freight task of course justify it all the way to Nambour if not further)

20 minute headways strike me as being irrelevant.  We can already get 15 minute headways to most of the metropolitan system so we should be doing that and focusing infrastructure spending on what will enable that or better elsewhere, mainly on the Sunshine Coast and the south-east.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Doomben has issues. Involves blocking the subs for the single track cross.

[achiruel]

Doomben has issues. Involves blocking the subs for the single track cross.

Airport the same? And Park Rd junction?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Airport trains can clear the subs on the airport before the single track section. Doomben services have to hold p2 Eagle junction until the doomben-city service fully clears the spur line ie stopped p1 Eagle junction.

Park road junction has different issues.

[achiruel]

So would duplicating the short section between EJ and Clayfield help that issue?

[timh]

So would duplicating the short section between EJ and Clayfield help that issue?

The earthworks were done a long time ago to duplicate to Hendra, but for some reason the track was never laid (ran out of money I assume). Clayfield, Hendra and Ascot already have a second platform ready to go with no rail line connected to it Stupidity if you ask me. If this short (and relatively cheap I'd assume) duplication could have a beneficial impact on the reliability/frequency of other parts of the network you'd think they would have already done it...

[ozbob]

Mind numbing stuff Tim ..  (original post http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4857.msg40546#msg40546 )

From the City North News 25th November 2010 pages 1 and 5

[timh]

Mind numbing stuff Tim ..  (original post http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4857.msg40546#msg40546 )

From the City North News 25th November 2010 pages 1 and 5

Bob thank god for your campaigning on this stuff. Did any positive outcomes come about from this in 2015? I'm guessing not unfortunately . Since I haven't heard squat for any plans to upgrade Doomben line, and the old freight line spur to Hamilton has been paved over

[#Metro]

The line from KSD to Hamilton has been removed.

[ozbob]

Still haven't given up on the duplication.  I doubt there would be a jurisdiction elsewhere that would let an opportunity like the Doomben line remain in its half baked state.  It is potential gold, particularly with the developments going on around Hamilton etc. This state really is off the mark sadly.  I must admit former Deputy Premier Lucas was keen on doing the extension to Hamilton, I even discussed with him whether a cutting or sky rail would be best to cross KSD (for the record I favoured a cutting in those days). 

He got rolled in the end, and the community got shafted.   

Here are some happy snaps I took in 2010 ..  (just click on the images)

Clayfield


















Hendra




















Ascot



















Doomben











Photographs R Dow 18th November 2010

[timh]

Really unfortunate

At the very least the duplication though would still be a no brainer, at least to Hendra. Dead simple. Just lay the track.

To get to Ascot they'd probably want to remove the LX at Zillman road, and past Ascot there's the Nudgee road LX and those funny little rail bridges near the racecourse. So that may be slightly trickier but not impossible.

Hamilton extension still doable as AFAIK the corridor is still there, it's just a makeshift parking lot. I don't think the land was sold. Skyrail would be the way to go now though, as I think BCC/TMR would be hesitant to chop up KSD again since they only just finished putting that bit back together...

You reckon it's worth bringing this point up again with the powers that be? Re: Doomben duplication+Hamilton extension, or do we have bigger fish to fry at the moment?

[#Metro]

Would it work if there was development around the stations? Wasn't there going to be a large development of the Doomben racecourse?

[verbatim9]

Would it work if there was development around the stations? Wasn't there going to be a large development of the Doomben racecourse?

Aged care facility going in on the Eastern side of Doomben race course. Not a fan of duplicating the Doomben line this area should be converted to LRT.

[verbatim9]

I don't like 20 min trains.

It involves all of the costs and none of the benefits.

It causes a problem with bus connections which are on 30 or 60 min frequencies.

15 min is what is needed to get decent turn up and go happening.

Start with a combined plan to convert guards to drivers, DOO phase in, and boost frequencies.

It will cost alot of tax payer funds to run trains every 7.5 mins from Darra through to the city as well as Northgate to the city and  Park road to the city. Unsustainable under the current budget with guards, drivers and security onboard 7 days until late. 20 mins or better off-peak and 15 mins peak should be an appealing frequency to improve patronage until 2032.

Has anyone ever been on a train after 7pm? They are basically 25% full. It doesn't justify services running every 15 mins and 7.5 mins.

20 mins or better would address overall frequency gaps and improve services and crosstown trips under current and proposed infrastructure improvements.