RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: Gazza on August 10, 2023, 10:30:00 AM(Isn't the average loading only 50% in peak across the Vic bridge?)

Yes, but those same buses have much higher loadings at Mater Hill.

Instead, CBD peak commuters get reverse-branched onto P-rockets via the Captain Cook, saving them some amount of time and keeping a large fraction of passengers out of the congested inner southern busway.

edit: here's the March 2019 AM Peak monthly totals for the 130 and friends: the P129, 131 and the P137. Service counts are weekdays until 08:40. Oh, and the 130 gets about 500 monthly AM-peak inbound boardings from MH+SB+CC.

Route	130	P129, 131, P137
CBD AM alights	5595	25255
CC-SB-MH AM alights	14832	nil
Other alights	5067	4468
CBD % of corridor total	10%	46%
Services	22	30

Again 2 thoughts

1. Reducing the # of buses to alleviate some of the choking and the station scramble + for the investment involved an increase in capacity of busway is logical yet it seems that the capacity is being reduced. This just seems stupid.  If the only benefits are less buses, choking and station scramble (I am dubious that this is actually improving much) then someone should have shut the project down. 

2. There has been no assessment of what is the future state volume of people/trips needing to be moved along this corridor assuming other missing rail/bus networks are in place (nothing they should be part of same assessment).  How do they ever expect to get close to leading practice mode share if they reduce the capacity of a system.

The BRT project trades unused capacity (air) and excessive vehicle numbers for higher speed and thus time savings.

What attracts people to PT are time savings (related to speed and frequency), not the line capacity on offer (assuming they all fit, which in this case they do).

Sorry where is the speed reduction?  These buses will operate no faster than current buses??

If we wanted speed then we should have bought a true Metro.

The speed reduction manifests as queuing and bus conga lines Jonno.

As mentioned previously, any new rail project will need to tunnel into the CBD, unless it can piggyback off the new CRR tunnel (Flagstone line and R1 Gold Coast would meet this criteria).

A new train tunnel would easily be $5b, hence the BRT bus proposal.

Also, all door boarding will reduce dwell times a little bit, so some time savings there.

Quote from: Gazza on August 10, 2023, 17:16:09 PMAlso, all door boarding will reduce dwell times a little bit, so some time savings there.

They've been doing all door boarding for a while now. They enforced rear door boarding for covid and now you can just enter either door. Idk if that's policy, but that's the way it is.

Quote from: #Metro on August 10, 2023, 16:50:01 PMThe speed reduction manifests as queuing and bus conga lines Jonno.

As mentioned previously, any new rail project will need to tunnel into the CBD, unless it can piggyback off the new CRR tunnel (Flagstone line and R1 Gold Coast would meet this criteria).

A new train tunnel would easily be $5b, hence the BRT bus proposal.

Let me get this right

-4250pph x 24hrs x 365day per year x 20 years (744,600,000 less trips)/2 Billion = -3.723 ROI

+11,000pph x24hrs x365 days per year x 20years (1,927,200,000 additional trips)/7 Billion = 0.275 ROI

The calculations are not how you calculate ROI I know that but my point is 2 billion to decrease capacity is a sh%t ROI vs a more expensive solution that delivers massive capacity, quality of serve improvements and leaves room to expand.  Value for money it's not!!

Jonno, I think you confuse practical and theoretical capacity, and have inadvertently valued passenger time savings at zero.

If a new metro project with new tunnel into the CBD costs about ~ $5b then for it to meet the lowest bar of acceptance it needs to also generate $5b of benefits.

The requirement of a new tunnel for metro rail has been a deal breaker for government.

Also, the project is going ahead. I can't see it being stopped now.

So negative benefits + limited capacity to improve further trumps positive and room to expand capacity further benefits!! That's a 1st!!

The long buses are really only a part of the project, there are also platform and route improvements to prevent queuing like at Buranda and changing the portal to King George Station.

When I caught the bus into uni circa 2012 I remember the Buranda stretch being the most problematic. On bad days it could take more than 5 minutes to get past. Queen Street bus station was always a bit of a rat's nest and the bus drivers need to drive through it ever so slowly to avoid hitting the walls (which they sometimes do!)

I can sort see where Jonno is coming from.

A lot of money and it will see some improvements to other aspects of bus operations and of course travel times, but for the money youd hope youd get more of a capacity hit as well.

Like with CRR, you get more capacity, but also a bit more speed, and more coverage with new station, for $6b

Brisbane BRT you get a bit of extra speed in peak hour only, and thats it, for $2b.

Quote from: RowBro on August 10, 2023, 18:35:18 PM

Quote from: Gazza on August 10, 2023, 17:16:09 PMAlso, all door boarding will reduce dwell times a little bit, so some time savings there.

They've been doing all door boarding for a while now. They enforced rear door boarding for covid and now you can just enter either door. Idk if that's policy, but that's the way it is.

The majority of buses in the BCC fleet only have a single leaf side door so the benefits will not be truly realised for a bit.

TransLink also needs to require all-door boarding be resumed at all the other operators, and stop funding vehicles from a certain manufacturer that have steps in the side door. 

So the inbound platform reopened today at the Cultural Centre.

I was a bit surprised they kept the same PIDs. A new dynamic colour PID that shows more information clearly would have been better.

Once again no public consultation on this

Something along the same lines as the dynamic PIDs being rolled out in Victoria would have been a better choice going forward, using LED instead of LCD.

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 21, 2023, 17:55:38 PMSo the inbound platform reopened today at the Cultural Centre.

I was a bit surprised they kept the same PIDs. A new dynamic colour PID that shows more information clearly would have been better.

Once again no public consultation on this

Something along the same lines as the dynamic PIDs being rolled out in Victoria would have been a better choice going forward, using LED instead of LCD.

That kind of PID layout wouldn't work for Cultural Centre purely because of the number of buses stopping there. It's common for multiple busses to arrive at once. If you were to show the stopping pattern for each route you would run out of space to show all the upcoming busses.

Quote from: RowBro on August 21, 2023, 18:28:21 PM

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 21, 2023, 17:55:38 PMSo the inbound platform reopened today at the Cultural Centre.

I was a bit surprised they kept the same PIDs. A new dynamic colour PID that shows more information clearly would have been better.

Once again no public consultation on this

Something along the same lines as the dynamic PIDs being rolled out in Victoria would have been a better choice going forward, using LED instead of LCD.

That kind of PID layout wouldn't work for Cultural Centre purely because of the number of buses stopping there. It's common for multiple busses to arrive at once. If you were to show the stopping pattern for each route you would run out of space to show all the upcoming busses.

Now is the problem the PID or the platform/station experience!! I wonder!! We can't have good thing because...checks notes...things are too crappy to improve!!

Quote from: Jonno on August 21, 2023, 18:34:54 PMNow is the problem the PID or the platform/station experience!! I wonder!! We can't have good thing because...checks notes...things are too crappy to improve!!

Obviously, the issue is that too many routes use the station, but without that being fixed a PID with that style would only make the platform/station experience worse. I would rather have a PID which at least tells me when my bus should arrive over a PID which doesn't tell me that because it's too busy showing the stopping pattern of another service I'm not going to use.

We could (and should) still have modern PID's which can show colour, but only so long as they are done right and don't make the experience worse. And note; right in this case doesn't mean what's best in an ideal world... it means what's best given the current circumstances.

Quote from: Jonno on August 21, 2023, 18:34:54 PM

Quote from: RowBro on August 21, 2023, 18:28:21 PM

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 21, 2023, 17:55:38 PMSo the inbound platform reopened today at the Cultural Centre.

I was a bit surprised they kept the same PIDs. A new dynamic colour PID that shows more information clearly would have been better.

Once again no public consultation on this

Something along the same lines as the dynamic PIDs being rolled out in Victoria would have been a better choice going forward, using LED instead of LCD.

That kind of PID layout wouldn't work for Cultural Centre purely because of the number of buses stopping there. It's common for multiple busses to arrive at once. If you were to show the stopping pattern for each route you would run out of space to show all the upcoming busses.

Now is the problem the PID or the platform/station experience!! I wonder!! We can't have good thing because...checks notes...things are too crappy to improve!!

I am not talking about the layout but the type of PID that is used. Layouts can be easily changed, a colour LED monitor style is more flexible in that respect.

Quote from: RowBro on August 21, 2023, 18:28:21 PM

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 21, 2023, 17:55:38 PMSo the inbound platform reopened today at the Cultural Centre.

I was a bit surprised they kept the same PIDs. A new dynamic colour PID that shows more information clearly would have been better.

Once again no public consultation on this

Something along the same lines as the dynamic PIDs being rolled out in Victoria would have been a better choice going forward, using LED instead of LCD.

That kind of PID layout wouldn't work for Cultural Centre purely because of the number of buses stopping there. It's common for multiple busses to arrive at once. If you were to show the stopping pattern for each route you would run out of space to show all the upcoming busses.

Wasn't this project meant to alleviate a bus arriving every thirty seconds or less during peak at that station. Plus won't there be three different stops as well? Re buses to West end etc...

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 21, 2023, 19:02:03 PM

Quote from: RowBro on August 21, 2023, 18:28:21 PM

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 21, 2023, 17:55:38 PMSo the inbound platform reopened today at the Cultural Centre.

I was a bit surprised they kept the same PIDs. A new dynamic colour PID that shows more information clearly would have been better.

Once again no public consultation on this

Something along the same lines as the dynamic PIDs being rolled out in Victoria would have been a better choice going forward, using LED instead of LCD.

That kind of PID layout wouldn't work for Cultural Centre purely because of the number of buses stopping there. It's common for multiple busses to arrive at once. If you were to show the stopping pattern for each route you would run out of space to show all the upcoming busses.

Wasn't this project meant to alleviate a bus arriving every thirty seconds or less during peak at that station. Plus won't there be three different stops as well? Re buses to West end etc...

I'm not too sure what the situation will be like when Metro starts tbf. I agree that they should really be installing LCD screens. My only qualm was with the specific example you gave.

Quote from: RowBro on August 21, 2023, 18:49:42 PM

Quote from: Jonno on August 21, 2023, 18:34:54 PMNow is the problem the PID or the platform/station experience!! I wonder!! We can't have good thing because...checks notes...things are too crappy to improve!!

Obviously, the issue is that too many routes use the station, but without that being fixed a PID with that style would only make the platform/station experience worse. I would rather have a PID which at least tells me when my bus should arrive over a PID which doesn't tell me that because it's too busy showing the stopping pattern of another service I'm not going to use.

We could (and should) still have modern PID's which can show colour, but only so long as they are done right and don't make the experience worse. And note; right in this case doesn't mean what's best in an ideal world... it means what's best given the current circumstances.

personally I find the bus order on the PID so unreliable that I just use real time app and just watch each bus arriving!! Bus station shuffle/sprints!!

https://twitter.com/bne_lordmayor/status/1693875859130909013

https://twitter.com/bne_lordmayor/status/1693875868345741759

^

Quote... Brisbane Metro is set to boost capacity in our public transport network by an additional 30 million passengers by 2031. ...

Anyone able explain where this capacity is coming from? 

About +3.75 million p.a. for 8 years.

Some of it would be from the intense redevelopment of South Brisbane, some from natural population growth (don't expect this to be significant).

Maybe he has a card up his sleeve for the coming BCC elections? More BUZ or Metro Bus routes for the upcoming election.

Large patronage changes generally came with BUZ rollout.

Schrinner's made no secret of his game plan for future Metro expansion - Airport, Carindale, Chermside, Springwood.

I've listed them in alphabetical order but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if that was his target order too - not that Airport should be done at all, if the train line can be de-privatised ahead of schedule.

It seems to me that Carindale and Chermside are gated on Transitway completion (and getting more vehicles). Wouldn't it be a hoot if the Metro expansion was the catalyst for making the transit way lanes be full-time?

Quote from: OzbobAnyone able explain where this capacity is coming from? 

Quote from: AldoniusSchrinner's made no secret of his game plan for future Metro expansion - Airport, Carindale, Chermside, Springwood.

I think there is another route in the works.

I would not expect this level of increase from M1 and M2 Metro BRT buses because they essentially substitute 111 and 66, which are already fairly frequent. Moreover, the time savings would mainly apply during peak when Cultural Centre is congested, during the off peak it is not so congested, so you would not expect a huge patronage uplift there from that alone.

Reasoning

- Let's assume the bus is full in peak (seems reasonable)
- A bus every 6 min => 10 buses per hour in peak
- x 150 pax per bus => 1500 pphd estimated peak load
- divide by 0.1 => 15,000 trips per day // Using our magic Brisbane-specific conversion factor we can switch between estimated peak and daily trips easily

Now that we know 15,000 trips per day, x5 days x 52 weeks = 3.9 million pax per year, each year
x 8 years to 2031 => 31.2 million trips by 2031.

Which would be a result within ~ 4% of the figure quoted by the Lord Mayor (30 million by 2031). Coincidence?  🤔
This would also be consistent with one page in the Metro Business Case report where there was an M3 to Woolloongabba featured.

Should we perhaps ask?   

Didn't someone estimate fleet size requirements for the published service levels for routes 1 and 2 and found it to be just doable with the initial order? Secondarily why is a route going to W'Gabba specifically when it's about to be made an inline station which both existing routes will pass through?

These are questions to put to BCC. After 20 years of admin, Blue Team will have to put together something really stellar.

My hunch is it might be a Metro BRT bus route to Carindale, or possibly from Chermside via the transitway and terminating at Wooloongabba.

https://twitter.com/JonathanPBryant/status/1693895583478813014

Quote from: #Metro on August 23, 2023, 11:24:38 AMThese are questions to put to BCC. After 20 years of admin, Blue Team will have to put together something really stellar.

My hunch is it might be a Metro BRT bus route to Carindale, or possibly from Chermside via the transitway and terminating at Wooloongabba.

Given that the bus lanes are currently in the works I would not be at all surprised. 

So will each new route reduce capacity further like the first one?  Yes I am being facetious but seriously we are at worlds worst practice, only really fiddling at the edges and spending billions to do so.

https://twitter.com/BrendanNatoli/status/1687613577132421120?

Comments on this Translink post are interesting 

Quote from: joninbrisbane on August 23, 2023, 13:22:35 PM

Quote from: #Metro on August 23, 2023, 11:24:38 AMThese are questions to put to BCC. After 20 years of admin, Blue Team will have to put together something really stellar.

My hunch is it might be a Metro BRT bus route to Carindale, or possibly from Chermside via the transitway and terminating at Wooloongabba.

Given that the bus lanes are currently in the works I would not be at all surprised. 

More than transit lanes are in the works. There is a business case for the full busway to Capalaba. Perhaps the outcome of that will come out conveniently just in time for council elections

https://twitter.com/bne_lordmayor/status/1694877538231955485

I have asked the LM if there have been any ' teething issues ' with the pilot electric bi-articulated bus.

No response at this time.

Here is a question! Is the recharging technology for the buses propriety or out an open standard able to be used by various suppliers!

I am fearful it is propriety and design for this one vehicle.

https://twitter.com/tamhus8/status/1701883470035996795?

Quote from: Jonno on September 09, 2023, 11:53:28 AMHere is a question! Is the recharging technology for the buses propriety or out an open standard able to be used by various suppliers!

I am fearful it is propriety and design for this one vehicle.

It's not a system that is proprietary/unique to the vehicle manufacturer, but I believe it is a proprietary system developed by the electrical infrastructure provider ABB.

I don't know if there is an open standard available for rapid charging for public transport vehicles yet, and I get the impression that ABB are working to make the TOSA system a defacto standard.

Interesting whst people are concerned about...or is it just the final straw

https://x.com/tamhus8/status/1701918989662974037?

Did any iteration of the Brisbane Metro project explicitly state that there would be level boarding at all stations, or is the poster basing this on an old artist's impression?

At any rate, the LighTram's automated front door ramp is an improvement over the manually operated ramps used currently.