RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: AOB on June 08, 2023, 16:53:26 PM

Quote from: RowBro on June 08, 2023, 14:47:37 PM

Quote from: nathandavid88 on June 08, 2023, 14:42:42 PMFeel free to correct me, but isn't it generally the case that the buses decked out in a service providers' branding are usually owned by the service operator, while buses supplied by the State Government are the ones with the more prominent Translink branding (eg. white buses with green front and back panels, or fully green for the new electric buses)?

I'm not sure personally. It is notable that (almost?) all new busses throughout the state (for a good while now) have the Translink livery: the exception to this being BCC. If this is the case that would imply all new busses are actually owned by Translink. That or Translink is finally beginning to enforce its standard livery on operators & their busses.

We might be getting off topic here, but if Translink does decide to get stricter with enforcing liveries it would be great if they could pick a better one! Surely they can do better than green and white with their new design being rolled out

Well, their new look is supposed to be this, but it is odd that the new electric buses are closer in design and branding to the old style than this new one. Bit hard to achieve a consistent look when Translink can't even do it within their own styleguide.

QuoteWell, their new look is supposed to be this, but it is odd that the new electric buses are closer in design and branding to the old style than this new one. Bit hard to achieve a consistent look when Translink can't even do it within their own styleguide.

Looks like a Sydney bus! 🤯

Afaik the buses are owned by the operators. BCC owns their fleet, Clark's owns their fleet, Kangaroo bus lines owns their fleet, etc.

^ I thought once upon a time they did, but now it's a full franchise model i.e. all the fleet and equipment comes from Translink. It could be a lease to own arrangement or something like that, but it's Translink going out and procuring the buses.

BCC, of course, put in extra $ just to play by different rules. 

Does anyone actually know for sure?

https://twitter.com/aaronguhreen/status/1670914957771145216?

https://twitter.com/olelocommunity/status/1667348861596082176?

https://twitter.com/transport_urban/status/1670511469807427584?

https://twitter.com/jiangsuculture/status/1669370733208956929?

https://twitter.com/hitachiraileng/status/1670738152468652032?

https://twitter.com/biginfoi/status/1668221609021440000?

^ I think that is enough of examples of real Metros.

We all know the " Brisbane Metro " is no more a metro than the 524 bus at Goodna!

BCC key politicians failed their big opportunity to set on a right course. 

I can't say i'm a fan of the Paris rubber tyred metros personally. They are (often) incredibly uncomfortable due to the incredibly high acceleration and decelleration rates. Plus they are very loud due to the rubber tyres. I definitely prefer a steel wheel/rail metro personally.

With the price tag now $2.1 B this is the perfect definition of a waste of "taxes and rates"!  We should be getting a Metro for that money. 20,000-40,000 pphpd instead of 3,600.   Mind blowing levels of waste!  Just my view as a rate and tax payer.  Oh well does not cut it anymore.

A real metro would probably cost more Jonno. Sydney's metro has booked large cost increases too.

Though I agree with you the core ideally is rail based metro like Sydney.

I also think we just need a lot more BUZ routes. That is low cost, low tech, and fast to complete.

Sydney Metro had to build all the infrastructure Whilst busway has already got a lot of that as in ROW.

I suspect it would cost more but it would deliver so much much much more!

Currently it's $2b for not much at all!! 

BRT redesign and bus lanes also great value too!!

Time for TMR and Translink to take over the project!

Quote from: AnonymouslyBad on June 10, 2023, 17:15:41 PM^ I thought once upon a time they did, but now it's a full franchise model i.e. all the fleet and equipment comes from Translink. It could be a lease to own arrangement or something like that, but it's Translink going out and procuring the buses.

BCC, of course, put in extra $ just to play by different rules. 

Does anyone actually know for sure?

From what I understand, TransLink provides the funding for the operator to purchase their own buses, which I must admit, isn't a great model, as that fixes who the operator will be in a certain contract area, if the operator loses the contract, the new operator will need a fleet to cover the timetables.

QuoteSydney Metro had to build all the infrastructure Whilst busway has already got a lot of that as in ROW.

I suspect it would cost more but it would deliver so much much much more!

Currently it's $2b for not much at all!! 

The Sydney Metro to Bankstown is a rail line conversion which uses an existing rail ROW. That's apparently gone from $12b to $20.5b. So that is a case where even having the ROW it's still not cheap...

The high cost of Brisbane BRT metro is due to station works at Buranda, Cultural Centre, a depot, vehicles, and tunneling under Adelaide Street.

A rail project would incur similar cost items, plus a tunnel under the Brisbane River, new metro train depot, overhead wiring, electrical substations, plus you have to buy trains as well.

You would be lucky to get it for what CRR cost at around $8.5 billion.

Its time will come but I can also understand why BCC chose the easy option to exhaust busway capacity rather than build steel wheel metro.

Quote from: #Metro on June 21, 2023, 23:44:33 PM

QuoteSydney Metro had to build all the infrastructure Whilst busway has already got a lot of that as in ROW.

I suspect it would cost more but it would deliver so much much much more!

Currently it's $2b for not much at all!! 

The Sydney Metro to Bankstown is a rail line conversion which uses an existing rail ROW. That's apparently gone from $12b to $20.5b. So that is a case where even having the ROW it's still not cheap...

The high cost of Brisbane BRT metro is due to station works at Buranda, Cultural Centre, a depot, vehicles, and tunneling under Adelaide Street.

A rail project would incur similar cost items, plus a tunnel under the Brisbane River, new metro train depot, overhead wiring, electrical substations, plus you have to buy trains as well.

You would be lucky to get it for what CRR cost at around $8.5 billion.

Its time will come but I can also understand why BCC chose the easy option to exhaust busway capacity rather than build steel wheel metro.

Really good points #Metro. Ultimately it's why I support Brisbane Metro so strongly. It's not the ideal solution, but it does really represent the best "bang for buck"

timh, what were your thoughts on more BUZ routes and new BRT metro bus routes to Chermside, Carindale, etc?

How can $2B for a pathetic 3,600 pphpd + a scramble for station experience + most other routes have to go to bypass mode in peak hour be best value for money. I have a couple of bridges for sale!!

Quote from: #Metro on June 22, 2023, 08:39:17 AMtimh, what were your thoughts on more BUZ routes and new BRT metro bus routes to Chermside, Carindale, etc?

- Regarding Chermside and Capalaba, I just want the original busways as per the plans in 2009 built. Then run a Brisbane Metro service to them. If the state government wants to build the car tunnel under Gympie road then you could *possibly* use that as an excuse to build the northern busway as surface running rather than tunneled for some sections if they are able to provide dedicated, median lanes for it with high quality busway stations.

- Regarding new BUZ routes, I don't know the network well enough, I'm nowhere near as on top of the routes and whatnot as many of the rest of you are. I'd love to see a super-express route to Browns Plains/Park Ridge running via the SEB and the M2/M6. Might be nice to get a BUZ route down Gardner road in Rochedale once that area is fully built out? Idk.

So explain what happens when the East Not-a-Metro and Brown Plains Not—a-Metro all feed into the SEB which already has to have Not-a-Metro buses operating at 2.5 minute headway to maintain existing capacity plus all the other bus routes still using SEB? Bus Parking?

Quote from: STB on June 21, 2023, 21:50:53 PM

Quote from: AnonymouslyBad on June 10, 2023, 17:15:41 PM^ I thought once upon a time they did, but now it's a full franchise model i.e. all the fleet and equipment comes from Translink. It could be a lease to own arrangement or something like that, but it's Translink going out and procuring the buses.

BCC, of course, put in extra $ just to play by different rules. 

Does anyone actually know for sure?

From what I understand, TransLink provides the funding for the operator to purchase their own buses, which I must admit, isn't a great model, as that fixes who the operator will be in a certain contract area, if the operator loses the contract, the new operator will need a fleet to cover the timetables.

Was my understanding too which is why I am always surprised about boosting regional coverage is an easy task. There's a reason why a good portion of regional contractors (CBL, Thompsons, KBL, BBL etc) all have a massive fleet of non low floor buses/coaches.

QuoteSo explain what happens when the East Not-a-Metro and Brown Plains Not—a-Metro all feed into the SEB which already has to have Not-a-Metro buses operating at 2.5 minute headway to maintain existing capacity plus all the other bus routes still using SEB? Bus Parking?

This is a reasonable question. I believe the answer is that they will break up the BUZ network from all passing through Cultural Centre to more buses flowing over the Captain Cook Bridge.

You also have to remember that the slots currently being used for 111 and 66 routes will be freed up, which will then be used for the BRT metro buses. So the additional increment will not be as great as some may think.

I think the minimum headway between two buses will be limited by how quickly a bus can stop, set down, pick up, close doors and exit at a busway station. I would guess this is about 25 seconds...

Quote from: #Metro on June 22, 2023, 19:44:32 PM

QuoteSo explain what happens when the East Not-a-Metro and Brown Plains Not—a-Metro all feed into the SEB which already has to have Not-a-Metro buses operating at 2.5 minute headway to maintain existing capacity plus all the other bus routes still using SEB? Bus Parking?

This is a reasonable question. I believe the answer is that they will break up the BUZ network from all passing through Cultural Centre to more buses flowing over the Captain Cook Bridge.

You also have to remember that the slots currently being used for 111 and 66 routes will be freed up, which will then be used for the BRT metro buses. So the additional increment will not be as great as some may think.

I think the minimum headway between two buses will be limited by how quickly a bus can stop, set down, pick up, close doors and exit at a busway station. I would guess this is about 25 seconds...

it's a broken CBD centric model costing us billions!!

Quoteit's a broken CBD centric model costing us billions!!

There is an alternative Jonno, and that is to use the existing CRR tunnel.

You would then separate the Gold Coast line from the Beenleigh line, placing the Gold Coast line into the M1 or beside it.

The SE Busway would continue to operate and would not be converted. A short rail tunnel would be required from the CRR portal around PA Hospital to Greenslopes.

You could then have rail stations at Upper Mt Gravatt and Logan, and build that line to run at 160-200 km/hr down the M1.

That would have the same effect as increasing both M1 and SE busway capacity, and capture Logan buses at Mt Gravatt, avoiding the need for buses to drive all the way into the Brisbane CBD.

You all recall the kerfuffle about the 2013 bus network review.

It will pale into insignificance once the punters realise that the ' Brisbane Metro ' is not a metro!

The term metro, raises incorrect expectations.  It is bus rapid transit, nothing more.

They have a big task to sell the changes from one seat to multiple seat journeys to the ' oh-no ' mob hey?

Going to be fun   

Dig it!

I want my rates and taxes back....now

Quote from: Jonno on June 22, 2023, 18:50:16 PMSo explain what happens when the East Not-a-Metro and Brown Plains Not—a-Metro all feed into the SEB which already has to have Not-a-Metro buses operating at 2.5 minute headway to maintain existing capacity plus all the other bus routes still using SEB? Bus Parking?

Same thing as happens today, it's just that the vehicles are a bit longer so we have a little bit more efficiency there.

Look. We're still at three-quarters of pre-COVID patronage. Congestion is non-linear in the number of vehicles. And there'll be a little bit of network reform. I reckon it'll be OK for a while.

And besides. If BCC weren't blowing money on improving the busway we all know they'd just widen another road.

Financial troubles hit major Brisbane Metro project | 7NEWS

What a an absolute Cluster!!

Brisbanetimes --> New Gabba Metro connection delayed, $210m for Caboolture housing

QuoteBrisbane's new Gabba underground train station – which finishes in 2026 – will not have a $450 million new bus station until 2030, south-east Queensland's new City Deal documents show.

However, planning is rapidly accelerating for one of the region's newest cities, with $210 million set aside to provide affordable housing in Caboolture West. ...

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/new-gabba-metro-connection-delayed-210m-for-caboolture-housing-20230714-p5do8y.html

Quote... Neither Brisbane City Council, which operates the Brisbane Metro bus project, nor the Department of Transport and Main Roads overseeing the Cross River Rail project could explain the delay. ...

 

[BCC Brisbane Congestion Creator   TMR Too Many Roads  ]

So this raised two immediate questions!!

1. Why  was this approved when it reduces capacity with little room to increase ease it further; and

2.why do so many buses go via Captain Cook Bridge when the busway route plan says they don't! Legibility be dammed

https://twitter.com/brendannatoli/status/1687613577132421120?

QuoteSo this raised two immediate questions!!

1. Why  no was this approved when it reduces capacity with little room to increase ease it further; and

2.why do so many buses go via Captain Cook Bridge when the busway route plan says they don't! Legibility be dammed

I did not quite follow the table, but a few thoughts to share:

1. The calculations are theoretical capacity. In practice, fewer actual people are going through the busway because not every seat is occupied; it is probably between 12,000 and 18,000 pphd. My best guess is 15,000 pphd. BCC or TransLink will have the most up to date figure.

2. The Routes 66 and 111 buses are being swapped out for larger BRT buses, so I'm not seeing how capacity goes down.

3. It is necessary to take a step back and remember that transport is the product, modes are a means of delivery. If we think about trains, they occupy a sort of block or slot. Transferring this frame to the bus case, you can imagine a stream of buses on the busway each occupying their own moving block or slot.

Two buses may not occupy the same slot or block, because this is the definition of a collision.

Some of these slots or blocks have a bus in them, some of them don't. Between the larger BRT buses, there exist vacant slots or blocks where you can slot in a standard bus. I suspect after the BRT metro buses are introduced, some of these slots will become empty, which would account for the discrepancy.

So for example, taking your first row and reading across:

- Before BRT, you have 375 buses being run to begin with
- After BRT, you have 282 buses being run

Assuming that all slots are occupied, this would imply +93 vacant slots being freed up on the busway after BRT implementation.

You could theoretically run buses in those vacant slots. This observation would be consistent with the decongestion of the busway and time savings which are the main benefits marketed for the project. The main benefit isn't capacity increase IIRC.

The busway is becoming full because it is becoming full of vehicles, not necessarily passengers.

The numbers assume a capacity of 66 for buses other than the bi-artics, which is wrong because it ignores tag-axle (100) and articulated buses (130) in the mix.  The figure for standard rigid buses will have increased over time because the gas buses (which are now a smaller and increasingly more so proportion of the fleet) have lower capacities.  However, battery electrics are probably going to see a drop in capacity again.  This is down to weight issues (CNG tanks / batteries).

The way I understand it, the busway currently runs 375 buses, but at those volumes the flow rate collapses because it is choked and you get the famous bus jam, and journey times blow out.

So the purpose of BRT was to reduce the number of buses, by using bigger ones, hence 282 buses.

So you cannot just add 93 buses back in again, or else we are back to the same problems we face today.

*************

That all said. Metro will reduce the capacity by 11%,

However the current capacity is not possible to fully utilize  regardless because of how confusing the stops / patterns and routes are for users.
(Isn't the average loading only 50% in peak across the Vic bridge?)
There will be less buses, but the buses will probably be used more efficiently due to improved legibility.