RAIL - Back On Track Forum

No I've pointed out your flaws in your foamy ideas. Doomben line is dead in the water. Patronage is limited. There are more pressing projects out there that money can be spent on such as Cleveland and shorncliffe issues with single track.

What demand? Where is this demand? Let's see evidence of this demand. If you think it's been established then you can share evidence. Or is this established demand based on the same evidence of buses using airport access roads. The 302, 303, 304, 305 must be going gang busters with this demand.

Budget conscious people is also not demand or an excuse for public transport services. There are lots of budget conscious people out there all across seq but it doesn't mean they get public transport services. What about those budget conscious people who live in nudgee/banyo but drive to Northgate to save a few bucks. What about those budget conscious people that drive from Northgate/Toombul/Nundah who drive to eagle junction? We also used to see budget conscious people from north lakes driving to bald hills or people from strathpine driving to bald hills to save a few bucks.

Sure there are those that get dropped off at dfo so they can catch a free bus because there's the perception of traffic congestion like you see at other airports but brisbane doesn't have that problem. From my observation most of the people don't get on the bus at dfo but get off the bus at dfo because family/friends have parked there. Interchanging onto a Translink service is almost non existent which is why I find you demand and established demand reasoning just complete foam.

Automall. How do you get there on this magical foamy bus? And what do you do at this automall or race track?

You can see why a majority here are taking the p%ss such as maglev trains via Geebung or hsr via Toowoomba.

So I'll say again. Show us this demand. Show us evidence of this demand. Is the 302 in such a position that it should be a half hourly route?? Because surely as you have said the demand has been established. Or is this demand not established on the 302?

The 302 is a suburban bus which is likely going to be replaced by The Gold Glider that will have better patronage due to going to the Gabba and Skygate as well as passing through the west side of the Valley.

The demand is there due to the 24,000 visitors/workers that frequent the area each day. Thus there is that demand for bus services to tap into.

Price conscious people will take buses around airport precincts as well as to and from cruises ships. I have experienced and seen healthy passengers loads for myself from riding the inter terminal and Skygate bus as well as using the passport bus while at Long beach. All the people that were on my bus were going to the cruise ship not to the nearby Queen Mary attraction.

QuoteYou can see why a majority here are taking the p%ss such as maglev trains via Geebung or hsr via Toowoomba.

People only say these things because of their own sense of insecurities and  who are not able to produce logical solutions that can provide good public transport outcomes.

Stop pulling made up numbers from a marketing panphlet. All this pt is pointless if those 24,000 people lived on the Northside and did shift work. Or labour hire. Or worked at trade coast. Let's see real numbers. Lots of people work out at Pinkenba yet there are bus stops with single digit yearly patronage stats. Let's see some real stats. 24,000 workers you claim yet dfo stops average about 200 per day. Let's make it 250 to be really really generous. Over 160 stores. The stores must be empty. You mention suburban bus routes. A lot of suburban bus routes have better patronage numbers on legs than dfo does. Suburbia with better numbers. Who would have thought. You also might want to possibly look at and reword the bit where the Gold wrapped bus will attract more patronage. Just because it's got a gold wrap doesn't mean people will flock to it to go to a sewage plant or the Damascus barracks to look at some stowed army vehicles. That also doesn't mean that the route should do a scenic tour of no where.

Actually let's kick it up a gear. What route would the Goldie wrap bus take? Direct via nudgee road where the bulk of bus stops average less than 8 people per day? Southern cross way where there is 0 patronage? Or are we going to duplicate the 302 and 590 via industrial wasteland were there are stops with more daily services than patronage? Or is it nudgee road to dfo then 302 out to a sewer plant. Because I really want to know where this established demand really is. All these budget conscious people. All this patronage and demand you make dfo sound like all these shops are a big draw card yet there are bus stops in suburbia with similar numbers. The Chermside green inbound stop has more patronage than both dfo inbound and outbound stops. Okay yes Chermside is a way bigger draw card. Let's look at the entire taigum interchange. A hand full of routes for a woolies, supercheap, Aldi and a handful of stores with the odd police chase and car through the shop front windows and yet that still sits inbetween the two dfo stop patronage. In fact there are many single direction buz stops that have numbers close to the combined total of dfo. Lutyche road Windsor rail stops have double the combined patronage that dfo has and that's only got a BP servo, a freedom furniture store, a building that only sells mirrors and a laser clinic. Kedron Brook inbound has more than dfo combined. Yes they are busway stops but when you compare dfo to other interchanges and other trip generators the numbers aren't that impressive especially when you have Skygate marketing the amount of stores they have is quite similar to the average daily bus patronage.

Why not try to sell it more. Lost some examples as to who uses it at the moment. Why would people use it. How would people use it. The route it would take. Let's deep dive into the foamy wastewater of the sewage plant directly out front the brisbane international cruise terminal and really find why people think it's a crappy idea.

Anyway I've given my 2 cents on the foam at hand.

Not my numbers but numbers provided by professionals and statisticians.

The numbers are there hence the call for PT in the area by politicians, main stream media, BAC and cruise companies.

The proposal I am putting forward doesn't draw on new resources but utilises existing resources by tweaking and combining services. Thus making it a plausible solution for all.

That being said I am not arguing over the Gold Glider, as this is in the midst of a business case process.

This thread is about providing services to the Port of Brisbane and the most economical way is to contract services out to BAC via Skygate as their subcontractor already have the fleet of buses to do so. It also borders BAC land so it just makes sense to do it. BAC and the cruise companies would also like to see a full time link between the airport and the terminals via Skygate for passengers workers and crew. The fare box can be subsidised partly by the cruise companies and the Qld Government with the short fall being made up from fare collection as a single zone fare.

Care to provide the details of these professionals and statisticians. Or are you referring to the same wank document masterplan that is full of what ifs and potentials. I love how the masterplan says "the addition of a new train station serving the Skygate precinct has the potential to be a key catalyst in the future growth of brisbane airport". How it's a "24/7 multiuse centre intergrating a range of activity generating uses". Go to the Skygate website and all the shops open at 9/10am and close at 5/6pm with only woolworths open 24/7. Then there is one sentence that says it's dependent on Queensland government and airtrain. Very similar to a lot of road and metro projects being an bcc initiative. And there's a nice survey promoting the station where 80% of people think the station will be appealing. A really nice survey. Appealing. Solid investigative planning for their masterplan. Asking the big questions. The entire document is glossy pr wank fest. I also love it how 73% of airport workers commute in private vehicles because of public transport costs and travel times before a couple pages later listing road planning, parking upgrades and planning for a reserved mas transit system linking car parks to the terminals bypassing Skygate, the automall and the bulk current and future employment and training centres. Out of all the projects the BNE auto mall and P2 multilevel car park are their biggest ground based transport projects for the next 5 years. It's a document full of pr high 5's.

It's easy to throw out numbers but it's also just as easy to over represent them. Something that especially Metro has done in the past by citing pr documents. Hopefully your professionals are no relation to those that did the foamy numbers for Airport link and clem7.

Upgrade the Doomben line and extend it to the new cruise terminal...this stuff should long ago have been front and centre of Brisbane 2032 thinking, instead of the big load of Flat Earth nothing we're currently getting [other than the bill of course]!  Some people are frankly past their use-by date and ready to ride off over the 1974 Hill!     

Quote from: SteelPan on January 13, 2023, 02:07:37 AMUpgrade the Doomben line and extend it to the new cruise terminal...this stuff should long ago have been front and centre of Brisbane 2032 thinking, instead of the big load of Flat Earth nothing we're currently getting [other than the bill of course]!  Some people are frankly past their use-by date and ready to ride off over the 1974 Hill!   

There's more foam in that post than the pinkenba Qantas hanger when the sprinklers went off. If you struggle to get people on a bus why go through the expense of building and then running heavy rail there. Heavy rail is not a valid answer and will never be a valid answer. Freight out there isn't fit for rail as it's all speciality or oversize dimensions which rules out using the line for freight operations. GrainCorp still have intentions of using facilities out there but that's on a different part of the 'island'. Onto passenger. As I said there is very little residential out that way. Just a handful of places towards the sewer plant. There's more towards pinkenba but people are moving out due to industry, lack of essential services and lack of basic services. Remote regional schools had more students than pinkenba did before it shut down. Most residents out that way work as dock workers or have some association with the local industry which makes them unlikely to use heavy rail. A bus would be better suited due to the ability to stop more frequently compared to the distance covered by heavy rail. Let's look at operations and infrastructure. There is no railway line or preserved railway corridor which means 100% resumptions which in parts will destroy the businesses you are trying to serve with heavy rail. Land is not the best and is in a flood zone. Substantial work will need to be done on foundations and potentially raising the track height. You also now have multiple level crossings to now deal with. Short Underpasses is not valid due to road classification due to the area being zoned industrial. There is no ohle facilities so a new substation possibly would be required instead of mooching off the NCL. Once again highlighting industry problems with ohle on level crossings. No way in hell will you get dual track. So let's say ohle is a serious issue for local industry. What are other alternatives? Battery/hybrid locos? That means more rollingstock and mtce facilities further increasing the cost. You have diesel locos and existing facilities but would need carriages. But now we have the number problem. Each train would need to be set up like the DTT with 2 locomotives in a push/pull configuration due to dead end leading now banned on the QR network. Second locomotive option is to buy dual cab end rollingstock further increasing your project costs. If you do want to run single locomotive you run into operational issues in the form of turning locos around. Say you want to run it as a shuttle to Doomben you have operational issues there too. With an electric train you could simply run into the same platform for a same/same platform transfer. Single diesel operations will struggle with this. Also cuts down on Doomben line operations. Then comes signalling and above ground assets. I haven't included everything but that's just a brief example of what needs to be done. Cost and benefit is your enemy. There's flat earth thinkers but there is also pie in the sky and blank cheque thinkers too which are just as bad.

Quotewho are not able to produce logical solutions that can provide good public transport outcomes.

What's illogical about having coaches using the coach bays at the Cruise terminal, rather than a Translink or BAC operated service?

QuoteBAC via Skygate as their subcontractor already have the fleet of buses to do so.

I dont understand this comment. BAC would have buses yes, but I would imagine they would have just enough buses to cover the Skygate loop and the car park shuttles. Basically 6km each way.

If you need increase service km to cover the long trip out to the cruise terminal then that needs extra fleet.
It feels like you are implying:

-BAC/Their contractor has spare buses just sitting idle that could be put on this route.
-BAC would allow these buses to be used or leased for free.

QuoteA shuttle and a networked approach is the best option here, as it's cost effective while delivering reliable, fast and affordable travel outcomes for the travelling public.

Its not fast though because transferring twice to reach the cruise terminal is quite slow.

BAC have 12 buses to cover all the staff shuttle, terminal shuttle and Skygate services. Along with spares to cover off mtce and brake downs.

 

Cruise Passenger ---https://cruisepassenger.com.au/news/brisbane-cruise-terminal-to-create-new-car-parks/

Brisbane Cruise to terminal to build an extra 350 carparks within the next year to cater for extra demand in driving.

This is such a fail of enormous scale.

TMR/Translink need to contract BAC to run shuttles 30 mins or better from Skygate now! People can then connect onwards to the air terminals, as well as connect to the 590 and hopefully the Gold Glider later next year.

Why? It's not a regular or frequent need which even you yourself have not established yet. If they can't organise charter buses for when ships are meant to berth there why does Translink need to provide services when and when there aren't ships berthed there? Why does Translink have to fund this when we can't even get reliable public transport to Chermside from the surrounding suburbs ie 322.

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 18, 2023, 21:04:08 PMThis is such a fail of enormous scale.

TMR/Translink need to contract BAC to run shuttles 30 mins or better from Skygate now! People can then connect onwards to the air terminals, as well as connect to the 590 and hopefully the Gold Glider later next year.

What exactly would be the point of running a service every 30 minutes to a destination that only has demand when a cruise ship arrives?

Absurdly ridiculous idea. The cruise operators should contract coach companies to run charter services as required.

^ They do.

I wonder if VB has actually ever been on a cruise.

Or to the suburb of Pinkenba.

Quote from: SurfRail on August 19, 2023, 09:23:29 AM^ They do.

I wonder if VB has actually ever been on a cruise.

I don't understand the problem, then. Why run a 30 minute service to an area that has basically zero demand outside of the arrival/departure of cruise ships?

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on August 19, 2023, 16:36:53 PMOr to the suburb of Pinkenba.

Probably not, or perhaps they just like pushing pointless barrows.

I raised this type of thing a few years back, PortRail would be a great initive to help bring alive a lot long neglected areas, with commercial and higher density housing options...but unless you put Heavy Rail in....they'll never have serious appeal to people.  Putting a few "glossy bus stops" around does not a transport solution make!

But it's Quuueeennnsssllland....so not expecting anything!   

But i mean, cities also need large areas of land for industry, and for storing stuff that is explosive, smelly, toxic etc.
If this isn't at Pinkenba, where do you put it?

So it would be at odds to try and do industrial mixed use with high density.

Passenger rail in heavily industrial areas just doesn't work, for example the abysmal patronage on the Port Kembla line....

I don't see much of a market for resi further downstream than Hamilton.  Too constrained by industry and lack of infrastructure, when these constraints don't exist elsewhere or are easier to fix.  A developer is more likely to want to put something in at Toowong than Myrtletown, even if the town planning wasn't a problem, because nobody wants to live out there - and for people who want to live away from the city there are already any number of better options.  (Maybe not "better" in an absolute sense but Yarrabilba is definitely better in most respects than anywhere further up than Eagle Farm.)

More and more I think the Doomben line is a waste of time for anything but the limited amount of freight it sees.

I remember when just about every now super-hot residential address in Brisbane was an unloved, old warehouse/industrial ridden region for the homeless/hopeless/drugged-out!  Who the heck would want to live in Fortitude Valley, they said a couple of decades ago!  Of course people did, because of the......wait for it.....INFRASTRUCTURE.....give them heavy rail, cream and cake....and they really will come running!!!!

Quote from: SteelPan on September 15, 2023, 19:55:13 PMI remember when just about every now super-hot residential address in Brisbane was an unloved, old warehouse/industrial ridden region for the homeless/hopeless/drugged-out!  Who the heck would want to live in Fortitude Valley, they said a couple of decades ago!  Of course people did, because of the......wait for it.....INFRASTRUCTURE.....give them heavy rail, cream and cake....and they really will come running!!!!

Fortitude Valley has had heavy rail basically forever, and even when it wasn't the current "fashionable" area, it was a drawcard for those with alternative lifestyles. There's always been pubs, clubs, restaurants...I lived there in the mid to late '90s and there was definitely plenty happening, even back then.

Myrtletown, OTOH...

Brisbanetimes --> Pontoon for charter boats at cruise terminal built 'in next 12 months' $

QuoteA charter boat pontoon could be built in the next 12 months near the $177 million Brisbane International Cruise Terminal as part of a river tourism link to the CBD.

Brisbane Economic Development Agency chief executive Anthony Ryan said the idea had been refined by the Better Brisbane Alliance over the past two years.

"We are looking at work over the next 12 months at putting a pontoon in that space and helping with people alighting from that billion-dollar industry [cruise ships]," Ryan said. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1786451326664356076