RAIL - Back On Track Forum

A thread about exploring the concept of a Virtual Metro in Brisbane, practicalities and challenges.
Continued from https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=14711.0

Note - this thread is exploratory.

Basic Material

QuoteIt's been easy to jump from those desires to the notion that since Australia doesn't have metros now, it needs to build them.  But Bowen's work in Melbourne (and our own work on the Sydney Morning Herald inquiry) are pointing out that our cities already have a network of grade-separated rail lines covering the areas of European density, and that the quickest way to get a "metro" level of mobility is simply to run these lines much more frequently.

Australia: Pitfalls of Metro Envy
https://humantransit.org/2010/04/australia-the-pitfalls-of-metroenvy.html

Comparison of Perth inner Fremantle line vs Sydney Metro Northwest all-day base frequencies.

Sydney Metro - 10 min base frequency


Perth inner Fremantle Line - 7.5 minute base frequency


Sources
Sydney Metro Timetable https://transportnsw.info/documents/timetables/93-M-Sydney-Metro-North-West-20201221.pdf
TransPerth Fremantle Line Timetable https://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/timetablepdfs/Fremantle%20Line%2020230612.pdf

Some questions:

1. Which lines should be considered for 10-minute train service in both directions all day during the off-peak? e.g. Ipswich/Springfield and potentially Airport Line seem like reasonable candidates.

2. At which inner Brisbane station(s) should the 10-minute service end on each line? e.g. Beenleigh line has multiple options for termini - Corinda, Coopers Plains, Kuraby

3. What infrastructure might be required? e.g. crossovers, added platforms, grade separation, short sections of track duplication?

4. Which stations may be suitable for pairing with TOD redevelopment after all-day 10-minute train service is supplied?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

If its a whole through routed line pair at 10 mins in its own sector fair enough.

For example Ferny Grove to Cleveland pairing post CRR.

Or one line pair where a quad exists, For example it could be possible to do 6tph to Springfield and 4tph express to Ipswich offpeak, but the headways on the mains through central would get a bit off, but still ok since 10tph is hardly pushing it.

What would be a challenge is say having 10 min service to Kuraby with a lower frequency beyond that.

You could do it if it was say every 10 mins to Kuraby and then every 30 mins to Beenleigh, but that's a bit unfair on people living further out.

You could do 10/20, but I think 20 min frequency is pure mediocrity, its better than half hourly, but its not TUAG so it doesn't really please anyone.

Doing something like every 10 mins to Kuraby but every 15 mins to Beenleigh is not possible, because of the mismatch in frequency or uneven headway beyond the intermediate terminus,

I think every 15 mins on the whole line would make more sense, which is what we are finally getting when CRR opens

So in summary.

A standalone line in SEQ could be every 10 mins
A line with shared track would need to run at 7.5 min frequency if we want to work in with 15 min frequency as the minimum level of service across SEQ suburban lines.

TRIVIA

Perth actually had a metro like section up until 2009. There was a shuttle that ran offpeak from Whitfords to Cockburn Central, to provide 7.5 min frequency on the inner section of the Mandurah and Joondalup line, but this was cancelled a year after the Liberal Government took power in 2008, and has never been restored.

QuoteW pattern services between Cockburn and Perth will not operate during off peak periods from 28 June 2009. 

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1257026.htm

10-minute frequency is great. Some lines don't even have that in peak

Right now, most lines are around 8tph in peak. So I think 4tph off-peak across most lines would be just enough --- and feasible.

Yes, and 4 trains/hr is good.

This is exploring an adjacent concept - Virtual Metro.

After all, if a new $8-16b metro were constructed then it would run at minimum 6 trains/hr in the off peak.

I think when people propose a metro, its not for the sake of saying "Hey Brisbane has a metro, we are a world class city now", it's more that there is a specific transport corridor where a bona fide driverless metro is the right tool for the job.

In Brisbane, that could be on the E-W subway route because it has a major center at Indro, a university, the CBD, plus several high density areas, finishing at Hamilton north shore.

Does the concept of metro frequencies apply to other areas. Ferny Grove line for example? Maybe not because its virtually all low density suburbia with some token apartment blocks near some stations. so perhaps 4tph is sufficient.

Interestingly, SEQ rail connects proposes running the Doomben line through to Indro for additional frequency. That mean every station from Indro to Eagle Junction would be at a metro level of service, and you know what, that well could justify it, since i think every station except Wooloowin has a level of development to justify that level of frequency.

I think what QR has is generally closer to, say, an S-Bahn than it is to an U-Bahn. Having said that, the Berlin S-Bahn lines seem to run to generally a 3tph base with a 6tph peak overlay - less frequent than I thought it'd be!

But I think what #Metro is developing here is some sort of press release where we say "hey look, we can have metro level service quality without spending a cent on new infrastructure".

I agree they should be able to manage 20 mins or better from 6am-9pm Mon-Fri and between 7am-9pm weekends and public holidays.

After 9pm it transitions back to 30 mins or better except for event days being mostly Thu, Fri and Sat evenings, where it would.remain as 20 mins or better

They also need to start transitioning to semi-automated operations. The ETCS 2 signalling system is designed for automation. The current guards could be transitioned into attendant positions in the driver cab.

The new Sunshine coast line needs to be designed to allow for full automation with platform screen doors from Beerwah to Maroochydore as well.

I think some new infrastructure would be necessary - e.g. crossovers, added platforms, grade separation, short sections of track duplication.

So there will be some expense involved to do that. As Jonno once wrote its "sweating the assets".

Could be coupled with TOD as well now that the housing incentives have been agreed to by national cabinet.

The station spacing on the inner QR network is quite close, similar to metro systems as well.

I think what'll happen is when we say "please give us higher frequency"  they'll say "wait till 2026 when CRR opens" coupled with a side of "Patronage is rebuilding post covid"

Guaranteed no major timetable changes till they open sadly.

Good point re grade sepping. Thats a prerequisite for a metro imo.

We still need to break/smash the "how about a new congestion busting road project whilst we develop a shiny glossy strategic document about active public transport that really says nothing will happen" mind set or nothing will happen at all.

I think a big gripe from car users is that (a) PT service isn't there when they need it and (b) they can't get a bus or take their car to it.

So when they hear a new road proposal, they think 'perfect'. And I can see why.

Quote from: #Metro on August 17, 2023, 17:39:34 PMI think a big gripe from car users is that (a) PT service isn't there when they need it and (b) they can't get a bus or take their car to it.

So when they hear a new road proposal, they think 'perfect'. And I can see why.

then they complain when it gets congested again!!  That is why our Governments should be educating the public not pulling the wool over their eyes or selling them snake oil!!

Any suggestions for the above questions, Jonno? Any particular strains with good TOD potential you'd like to mention?

<FOAM>

Concept Only for Exploration and Discussion Purposes
Virtual Metro Concept (showing 10-minute off peak service only)



Attempted to draw out the VM Concept to see how it could potentially work and what challenges might be encountered.

Scenario Analysis & Results

Basic Setup:
- Brisbane Airport to Springfield, trains every 10 minutes off-peak
- Ferny Grove to Corinda via Sth. Bris., trains every 10 minutes off-peak
- Bowen Hills to Murrarie, trains every 10 minutes off-peak

Used Aldonius map here to help make the count, let me know if I miscounted any stations: https://abjago.net/transit-maps/pdf/SEQ_2025_August2022_Alex_Jago.pdf

Detailed Conceptual Line Setup
10-Minute Frequency Group

*Airport-Springfield Line - 10 minute train service all day.
Might require duplication of the Airport Line track. Option to build DFO station.

*Ferny Grove-Corinda vis Sth. Bris. - 10 minute train service all day.
Might require adding a platform at Corinda, short track amplification on the Beenleigh Line between Yeerongpilly and Dutton Park to separate GC+Beenleigh line trains from Ferny-Grove Corinda shuttle trains. New platforms added at Yeerongpilly. Option to add a new Tennyson Station near Gerlee St, Tennyson.

Note: With trains every 10 min provided by the Ferny Grove-Corinda vis Sth. Bris. service serving this section, the option exists to make all-stopper Beenleigh trains to skip Yeronga, Fairfield and Dutton Park if desired.

*Murrarie to Bowen Hills - 10 minute train service all day.
Might require track amplification between Park Road and Murrarie, electrification of freight rail line along this section. Side benefit would be that Cleveland trains could run express all day within this track section.

Non-10 minute Frequency Group

*Shorncliffe to Ipswich Express
Runs express between Milton and Darra with stops at Milton and Indooroopilly. Can be run at either 30-minute or 15-minute frequency in the off-peak as TransLink decides.

*Caboolture to Beenleigh
Usual express pattern from Caboolture, then into CRR and out to Beenleigh. Option to skip Dutton Park, Fairfield, and Yeronga on the usual stopping pattern if Ferny Grove-Corinda vis Sth. Bris. services are in operation. Expect this to be 2 trains/hr from Caboolture supplemented with an additional 2 trains/hr from Bowen Hills via CRR to maintain 4 trains/hr to Coopers Plains.

*Doomben to Cleveland
Usual service pattern from Doomben at 2 trains/hr. Option to run express from Park Road to Murrarie all day if track is amplified and electrified between Park Road and Murrarie.

Summary
- Aiming for 15-minute train services on existing lines in the off-peak seems to be the cheapest, least-fuss way to get decent basic frequency on the network at low cost.

- However, IF the Queensland Government and TransLink/TMR are prepared to spend potentially $8-$16 billion on a Subway, THEN an alternative scenario of spending up to this amount should also be evaluated as part of the business case (opportunity cost assessment)

- A 10-minute 'Virtual metro' concept would be a good competing alternative to evaluate. Like a subway, this would also entail infrastructure costs in the form of potential track amplifications between Yerongpilly-Dutton Park, Park Road-Murrarie, and duplication the Brisbane Airport Line.

- Under a CRR only scenario, one could expect ~ 23 stations to meet the metro service level standard within TL Zone 2.

- Under a new subway proposal as per the Green Team election policy, one could expect ~ 29 stations to meet the metro service level standard within TL Zone 2. An increase of six stations (not counting interchange stations twice).

- Under a VM scenario, one could expect 52 stations to meet the metro service level standard within TL Zone 2. An increase of 29 stations. Unlike a new subway, a VM scenario would be anticipated to avoid the costs of building new stations (as there are no new stations constructed in the concept) and tunnelling costs (as there are no new tunnels in the concept either).

QuoteSome questions:

1. Which lines should be considered for 10-minute train service in both directions all day during the off-peak? e.g. Ipswich/Springfield and potentially Airport Line seem like reasonable candidates.

- all of them. been in Sydney this week and it is a god send.  There will be infra restriction but those should be fixed.

Quote2. At which inner Brisbane station(s) should the 10-minute service end on each line? e.g. Beenleigh line has multiple options for termini - Corinda, Coopers Plains, Kuraby

- my question back to you is why is this an inner city thing?  at some point the 10min service applies to those travelling Cabooluture/Strathpine, Ipswich, Cleveland/Manly, Shorncliffe and even Springfield.  SEQ is no longer a CBD centric region.

Quote3. What infrastructure might be required? e.g. crossovers, added platforms, grade separation, short sections of track duplication?

- not my sweet spot so not sure.

Quote4. Which stations may be suitable for pairing with TOD redevelopment after all-day 10-minute train service is supplied?

- all of them.

Will you be riding the trams and metro Jonno?

A 2nd version of the map, with CRR added (Since it would be criminal to have Albert st at only 4tph, there definitley needs to be shuttles or something ensuring 8tph off peak through CRR)
Have also added the BRT Metro since that will have 10 min services on a dedicated ROW
Have also superimposed the Greens E-W metro route.
And highlighted key interchange points between lines.
So with all this you do get a pretty comprehensive network connecting virtually all destinations of significance


Next step, you can see the geographic areas that are black holes that lack any sort of class A or B service, and those are locations that need actual infrastructure to fill the gaps and make then accessible at reasonable speed.

#Metro's concept there absolutely requires some additional tracks.

Duplication of the Airport Line track is needed for 10-minute service (it can just do 15 minute headways - the longest single track section is 7 minutes from memory). Building DFO gives the option for passing there, of course.

Corinda via South Brisbane will need a 4th track between Park Road and Yeerongpilly for sectorisation reasons. Especially if you want to run those services at 10 min headways and BL/GC at 15 minute headways.

What's your sectorisation here anyway? Doomben has to be in the same sector as the Airport (Springfield's pair) but Cleveland has to be in the same sector as Ferny Grove. Does that mean Springfield is on the subs full time now at Roma St? I don't know if that's workable.

Park Rd is basically functional at 19tph peak and ~10tph counter-peak (the Shorncliffe/Cleveland services are carefully timetabled to cross there, which helps). This proposal goes to 14tph symmetric at Park Rd, and then if the Springfield line is on the subs that's 20tph symmetric at the Merivale junction...

Quote from: aldonius on August 18, 2023, 16:31:08 PMCorinda via South Brisbane will need a 4th track between Park Road and Yeerongpilly for sectorisation reasons. Especially if you want to run those services at 10 min headways and BL/GC at 15 minute headways.

I think it really needs 5 tracks: up/down mains, up/down subs, and freight. I have no idea how you fit in in the corridor, though, which is why CRR really should have started at Yeerongpilly.

QuoteWhat's your sectorisation here anyway? Doomben has to be in the same sector as the Airport (Springfield's pair) but Cleveland has to be in the same sector as Ferny Grove. Does that mean Springfield is on the subs full time now at Roma St? I don't know if that's workable.

Aldonius, I'll try answer as best as I can but sectorisation is not my area of knowledge, so I would need to see a diagram and more details please.

In this VM scenario, Corinda to CBD via Sth Brisbane and Murrarie to CBD via Sth Brisbane generate a high volume of 10-min trains heading into the CBD. One of these streams needs to be terminated at Bowen Hills.

Regarding Springfield <---> Airport I've paired Springfield with Airport in this scenario as Ipswich trains would only offer about 2 trains/hr to Brisbane Airport. AIUI there are cross overs at Indooroopilly and Milton which allow trains to switch tracks.

Foam ahoy all right. Even some of the non foamy comments are laughable. Guards aren't going anywhere and ETCS will do bugger all. Freight trains have not been taken into account nor has their 25kph crossover speeds or starting from a standstill as is the case across the suburban area. By this i'm referring to the 25kph cross overs all across the network any why Normanby to Fisherman's Island via South Brisbane are usually reserved for off peak/night movements as this move stops all train movements at Roma Street/South Brisbane/Milton.

And sectorisation is still sort of bs in the overall running of the network. Easy to explain to novice/casual users but there are still lots of anti sectorisation movements all the time and freight does not really abide by it aswell.

Metro, sectorisation is basically just keeping track pairs together depending on the network configuration to avoid conflicts such as crossovers blocking or restricting movements (think port bound freight trains via south brisbane throwing up restricted signals on the western mains to Milton and then the western subs to Auchenflower along with stopping all train services in all directions until it has cleared the crossovers). In some instances increasing frequencies actually decreases network reliability and minimal delays have a serious knock on effect. This is in fact the case with Eagle Junction-Park Road where services will skip stations to maintain city slots in and out of peak hour in either direction. Airport-City services in morning peak are well known for International Terminal-Bowen Hills express running. For instance a late running Doomben-City service blocks all traffic north and south of Eagle Junction on the subs (with current sectorisation this being Airport, Northgate and Shorncliffe services in both directions all must wait for the one train to come off the Doomben line. That then holds up the outbound service which then delays the next inbound service and the cycle repeats. It's also why on some network delays they are just blown out even more as Airport and Doomben shuffles reek havoc with driver/rollingstock positioning movements. Even when the delay is fixed you can usually find a secondary delay caused solely by the Doomben line). We also see this happen soooooo frequently with Cleveland-City services running express in morning peak to maintain its city slot and not delay other services north of Bowen Hills ie dead running  for new peak inbound services or thru services eg having a Doomben train blocking the subs. The public doesn't know this move but the inbound skipping train can even delay inbound Gold Coast/Beenleigh services at Marooka. By having the inbound Cleveland train running late it backs up Park Road-Roma Street which then delays the Yeerongpilly cross of a Park Road-Redbank/Springfield/Mayne service throwing up reds/heavily restricted signals for inbound traffic. Relying on Doomben and Airport lines for additional frequencies to other lines does require substantial infrastructure investment outside of ETCS. And don't forget post CRR all the newer reliable rollingstock will exclusively be found on CRR routes.

Yep. Sectorisation is foremost a reliability thing, and (given flat junctions) it's also a capacity thing.

Freight and non revenue trains often can't stick to it but the solution to that isn't to give up, it's to weave them through as best we can.

QuoteYep. Sectorisation is foremost a reliability thing, and (given flat junctions) it's also a capacity thing.

Freight and non revenue trains often can't stick to it but the solution to that isn't to give up, it's to weave them through as best we can.

Were there any other infrastructure requirements that would be necessary given a $8-16 billion budget for fixes? It seems that Roma Street junction might be an issue with the high volume of trains.

Roma Street isn't really a big issue. Only becomes an issue if you want to run unrealistic 10 min frequencies everywhere. There are plenty of slow speed cross overs and restrictions. Roma street, Normanby, Bowen Hills, Corinda, Yeerongpilly, Park Road and Mauarie. And that's with 600m trains. What happens if you add an extra loco and 400m of extra carriages to them.

But you still need to address lack of stabling, rollingstock positioning, staff (both station staff for NGRs and onboard crews - remember station staff at the moment are a bigger issue then crew staff and is why NGR's do not run on the Beenleigh-Ferny Grove line) and signalling. Sure you can go 9 car trains for longer lines via crr and bump up the shorter inbetween legs but now you have to factor in platform and rollingstock mods. Moving to DOO isn't feasible network wide so look towards lines that are which would be CRR/Gold Coast/Caboolture/Kippa Ring. I've left out Beenleigh as you need to upgrade a lot of stations. On top of that you need to modify all NGRs as they aren't DOO compliant. Going automated is simply a bs fantasy idea and will not happen even in this foamy thread. 

Quite frankly only a handful of lines deserve upgrading. Even during peak hour particular trains lack patronage and that's because of poor feeder services. The further you get out of the city the less frequency becomes an issue and transit time becomes the core point. A train every 10 mins from Ipswich or Caboolture is Mark Bailey thumbs up selfie cool but not if it takes 60 minutes + getting there to get to Brisbane city.