RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: Gazza on March 09, 2023, 10:51:15 AMRemember, the NWTC study was funded by Morrison because the Federal LNP wanted a toll tunnel for the northside and the BCC felt that was the most likely thing they could get funding from the Feds for.

Had the LNP retained power at the Federal level, it is likely it would have been delivered in a similar manner to Legacy Way.

Lets not lose sight of this reality.

It's State-owned land. Even if the fed's remained in power, it wouldn't have gone ahead because the State would have denied it. BCC should have been trying to get the State on their side, not the Feds!

Ah but remember the study was for the broader "North West Transport Network", not specifically the NWTC alone.
Hence the Gympie Road tunnel option 4b

Quote from: Gazza on March 09, 2023, 11:35:35 AMAh but remember the study was for the broader "North West Transport Network", not specifically the NWTC alone.
Hence the Gympie Road tunnel option 4b

Gympie Rd is still state owned, but I get your point. My only issue with the whole thing is that BCC is blaming the state when they had no obligation to partake in a study which essentially should have been their own study. Major roads aren't BCC's responsibility.

I hope that the Local, State and Federal Government can tweak the Council's proposal. The tunnel solution is viable but maybe needs some tweaking.

As per surface solutions Skyrail would be the only solution and less intrusive, but may cost as much as tunnelling.

I would prefer the tunnel option similar to what has occured with the NW Metro project in Sydney.

Saying that they also need to commit and build an active transport corridor on the surface. This is doable and less controversial, as it can be used for both commuting and recreational cycling, as well as walking and jogging.

I suspect it was done this way because the council LNP were a sympathetic ear to the the federal LNP.

Theoretically, BCC can build tunnels where they like, as evidenced by Clem 7 and Legacy Way.

Quote from: Gazza on March 09, 2023, 12:42:17 PMI suspect it was done this way because the council LNP were a sympathetic ear to the the federal LNP.

Theoretically, BCC can build tunnels where they like, as evidenced by Clem 7 and Legacy Way.

State Government still has to approve them.

See > https://www.statedevelopment.qld.gov.au/coordinator-general/assessments-and-approvals/coordinated-projects/completed-projects/clem-jones-tunnel

For an example.

And I guess there is no way the State Government would approve the BCC Road Tunnel underneath the NWTC, particularly as it was a cosy arrangement between BCC and the Morrison Government.  Although BCC talk about a ' rail tunnel ' it was not really going to happen, pushed back many many years. The study was biased to the road tunnel and not much else really. Despite most people really wanting a public and active transport outcome.

Dead as the blessed DoDo is the road tunnel!

Quote from: Gazza on March 09, 2023, 12:42:17 PMI suspect it was done this way because the council LNP were a sympathetic ear to the the federal LNP.

Theoretically, BCC can build tunnels where they like, as evidenced by Clem 7 and Legacy Way.

It is my opinion that BCC shouldn't have anything to do with major roads (tunnels, etc.). They are a council. The only reason they can is because they are so large (and IMO bloated). No other city has councils planning and constructing road tunnels. Ultimately it should be the State governments responsibility, not the Councils, and the added bureaucracy of having two different levels of Government creating case studies and funding these projects just causes more problems than it solves. That's not even mentioning the infighting already happening between the State and Federal government about funding etc.

Sent to all outlets:

Does the North West Transport Corridor need to be underground?

9th March 2023

A rail line along the North West Transport Corridor (NWTC) has come under the spotlight again after Infrastructure Australia rejected a BCC led road biased study into the project.
The study that claimed a tunnel was the only way to construct rail (or road) along this corridor, given the existence of bush, and existing housing parallel to the route. Infrastructure Australia quite rightly wants above ground options to be considered on equal footing.

Recently the RACQ also claimed that going underground was what large modern cities do.
https://www.racq.com.au/about-us/news-and-media/news/2023/3/north-west-transport-corridor-must-deliver-for-the-long-term

RAIL Back On Track disagrees with both of these statements. Whilst short amounts of tunnel may be needed under particularly hilly or environmentally sensitive areas, most of the NWTC corridor has no environmental concerns. So tunnelling where it is not needed is simply wasting taxpayers money. The NWTC could be built above ground, with some tunnelling, cuttings, and cut and cover construction techniques.

The state of existing corridors

The reality is that decades of political inaction means there are several vacant transport corridors stretching across SEQ.
These corridors are like ribbons, typically 50 metres wide or more, more than sufficient to fit a rail line and cycleway/pedestrian paths through.

Over time, suburbia has developed to the edge of these corridors. Some of this development occurred with the promise that a rail line would be following soon. Some of these corridors have sat for so long that trees have sprouted.

The reality is that all future transport corridors have these constraints.

So are we supposed to believe that ALL future SEQ rail lines must be built underground now, because they might require the removal of  trees or run close to housing?
It's not a reasonable position to demand this, so calls to give the NWTC special treatment and make it an 100% underground line should be ignored. BCC is happy to knock down houses and bush for roads.

Going Underground

The RACQ claims that "Large cities around the world put their major new public transport and urban motorways underground and that's how we need to be thinking,"

But is this the reality?

Perth is currently completing several extensions to its train network, and these are being built above ground.

Similarly, Melbourne has used elevated 'skyrail' on several new projects.

Projects in Sydney have used a combination of tunnels and elevated skyrail in recent years.

Overseas, its much more common to see elevated lines than Australia (not just tunnels), for example the Evergreen Line extension to the Vancouver Skytrain.

Underground Rail has it's role, for example in dense or hilly areas where rail on the surface simply wouldn't fit.

On the other hand, SEQ is fortunate in that several future rail lines already have land set aside on the surface.

We could have a more sustainable transport network now if we got our act together and built these lines, and got off the merry go round of funnelling money into an endless cycle of motorway upgrades, which are NOT congestion busting BUT congestion inducing in the end. We need to focus on transport solutions for the future.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org



Figure:  Examples of Unbuilt Rail Corridors Across SEQ



https://backontrack.org/docs/nwtc/unbuiltrail.jpg

Facebook ...

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1633823666919329793

https://twitter.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1633749707557093376

Thanks Fares_Fair 🙏👍

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1633966300572835841

Some photographs I took in 2010 in the NWTC.









Photographs R Dow 2010

Facebook ...

I hope this NWTC fiasco is the final nail in the coffin.

It's time for Public Transport Queensland.  TfB just another operator ...

The bus network mess north of Brisbane needs to be sorted as a priority.

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1634024568422821891

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1634393646396227584

It might be worth just getting a second but formal rejection from the Federal Government.

All they need to do is come out and say "We are not funding a toll road above or below ground in that corridor".

Just need Federal Transport Minister Catherine King MP to come out and formally reject it publicly. I would suggest RBOT members consider contacting the minister.

With both the State and Federal Government rejecting it, this would just leave BCC high and dry advocating for a toll road that nobody (other than the Car Club RACQ) wants.

Catherine King MP https://www.aph.gov.au/Senators_and_Members/Parliamentarian?MPID=00AMR

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1634407620860854272

I love this tweet:

"Quoting a motoring organisation as an authority on railway construction is like hiring an accountant to build a gazebo"

https://twitter.com/railmaps/status/1634407690989608960

"Seriously You are quoting the RACQ! That's like quoting the Tabacco industry when discussing cancer!! They are the problem! You are the problem! Stop selling the Congestion Con"

https://twitter.com/JonathanPBryant/status/1634427550196981760

I don't get it. Who does he think he's winning over with these tweets. Every comment I've read on all of the tweets relating to this have been in opposition to what he's saying. It doesn't bode well for his re-election chances. Fingers crossed! The best thing for Brisbane would be a new Government. This 20 year old council is well past it's retirement age!

See Bus improvements North West > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=15089.0

    

https://twitter.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1634467026944286721

Quote from: RowBro on March 11, 2023, 17:45:29 PMI don't get it. Who does he think he's winning over with these tweets. Every comment I've read on all of the tweets relating to this have been in opposition to what he's saying. It doesn't bode well for his re-election chances. Fingers crossed! The best thing for Brisbane would be a new Government. This 20 year old council is well past it's retirement age!

Yo, LM Schrinner is best advised to jump into an ' air-taxi ' and disappear into the ether along the air-space above the NWTC corridor ...

He is just looking out of touch now. 

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1634618502786215936

Ha ha .. #ByeAdrianBye ...

Sent to all outlets:

Cutting through the sad pathetic politics ..

13th March 2023

Good Morning,

Putting aside the political squabbles between the Minister for Transport and the Lord Mayor of Brisbane, we have shown that the North West Transport Corridor can be used for public and active transport.  Preferably rail, with associated active transport paths, pedestrian and bicycle and related modes.  The arguments and the campaign run by the political hacks at Team Schrinner are false in our view.

Consider these Facebook posts where we show this clearly:

Infrastructure Australia Rejects BCC NWTC Proposal
https://railbotforum.org/yourls/4k

BCC's moral high ground is hypocrisy!
https://railbotforum.org/yourls/4l

Does the North West Transport Corridor need to be underground?
https://railbotforum.org/yourls/4n

Cr Andrew Wines claimed this morning about the NWTC rail line ...
https://railbotforum.org/yourls/4o

Fix Up Brisbane City Council and Moreton Bay Regional Council Bus Networks to Alleviate Northwest Congestion
https://railbotforum.org/yourls/4q

The North West Transport Corridor fiasco, again demonstrates why we need a proper public transport authority in Queensland.
The days of wine and roses are over!

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on March 09, 2023, 22:49:43 PMSent to all outlets:

Does the North West Transport Corridor need to be underground?

9th March 2023

A rail line along the North West Transport Corridor (NWTC) has come under the spotlight again after Infrastructure Australia rejected a BCC led road biased study into the project.
The study that claimed a tunnel was the only way to construct rail (or road) along this corridor, given the existence of bush, and existing housing parallel to the route. Infrastructure Australia quite rightly wants above ground options to be considered on equal footing.

Recently the RACQ also claimed that going underground was what large modern cities do.
https://www.racq.com.au/about-us/news-and-media/news/2023/3/north-west-transport-corridor-must-deliver-for-the-long-term

RAIL Back On Track disagrees with both of these statements. Whilst short amounts of tunnel may be needed under particularly hilly or environmentally sensitive areas, most of the NWTC corridor has no environmental concerns. So tunnelling where it is not needed is simply wasting taxpayers money. The NWTC could be built above ground, with some tunnelling, cuttings, and cut and cover construction techniques.

The state of existing corridors

The reality is that decades of political inaction means there are several vacant transport corridors stretching across SEQ.
These corridors are like ribbons, typically 50 metres wide or more, more than sufficient to fit a rail line and cycleway/pedestrian paths through.

Over time, suburbia has developed to the edge of these corridors. Some of this development occurred with the promise that a rail line would be following soon. Some of these corridors have sat for so long that trees have sprouted.

The reality is that all future transport corridors have these constraints.

So are we supposed to believe that ALL future SEQ rail lines must be built underground now, because they might require the removal of  trees or run close to housing?
It's not a reasonable position to demand this, so calls to give the NWTC special treatment and make it an 100% underground line should be ignored. BCC is happy to knock down houses and bush for roads.

Going Underground

The RACQ claims that "Large cities around the world put their major new public transport and urban motorways underground and that's how we need to be thinking,"

But is this the reality?

Perth is currently completing several extensions to its train network, and these are being built above ground.

Similarly, Melbourne has used elevated 'skyrail' on several new projects.

Projects in Sydney have used a combination of tunnels and elevated skyrail in recent years.

Overseas, its much more common to see elevated lines than Australia (not just tunnels), for example the Evergreen Line extension to the Vancouver Skytrain.

Underground Rail has it's role, for example in dense or hilly areas where rail on the surface simply wouldn't fit.

On the other hand, SEQ is fortunate in that several future rail lines already have land set aside on the surface.

We could have a more sustainable transport network now if we got our act together and built these lines, and got off the merry go round of funnelling money into an endless cycle of motorway upgrades, which are NOT congestion busting BUT congestion inducing in the end. We need to focus on transport solutions for the future.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org



Figure:  Examples of Unbuilt Rail Corridors Across SEQ



https://backontrack.org/docs/nwtc/unbuiltrail.jpg

Facebook ...

This Is Outrageous! 

All those reserved transport corridors...are WORLD CLASS Reserved Transport Corridors.....and I'd kindly ask, you immediately amend your post, to reflect their Queeeeennnsslllaaannddd Govt "World Class"status!  

Keep it classy Queeeeennnsslllaaannddd

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1634975690352394241

When do you know a politician is lying? Their lips are moving! 

QuoteWhen do you know a politician is lying? Their lips are moving! 

Let's have a look at BCC's past approach to Car Rapid Transport (CRT) based projects.

ENVIRONMENTAL

QuoteA HISTORIC fig tree that ratepayers paid up to $200,000 to save from destruction will be felled to make way for the Legacy Way tunnel.

The Moreton Bay fig, believed to be more than 120 years old, was uprooted and moved following public outcry over plans to remove it to make way for the Inner City Bypass in 2000.

Now it is due to be felled in August, alongside two historic hoop pines and several other trees, to make way for the $1.5 billion Legacy Way tunnel.

Brisbane City Council says it is unlikely to survive another relocation, estimated to cost up to $300,000.

Felling it is expected to cost about $30,000.

Source: 120-year-old fig tree saved 11 years ago to be felled to make way for Legacy Way tunnel
https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/year-old-fig-tree-to-be-felled-to-make-way-for-legacy-way-tunnel/news-story/e05236ca617f67fea2b04c6cbff3a332

HOME RESUMPTION & DEMOLITION

QuoteBrisbane's Wynnum Rd upgrade will involve resumption of 38 properties to make way for extra lane
UPDATE: East Brisbane residents who learned today that their homes will be resumed for widening of Lytton Rd have reacted angrily to the news.

During this time Cr Schrinner was Deputy LM. The resumptions cost $60 million.

Source: Brisbane's Wynnum Rd upgrade will involve resumption of 38 properties to make way for extra lane
https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/brisbanes-wynnum-rd-upgrade-will-involve-resumption-of-38-properties-to-make-way-for-extra-lane/news-story/1976dd5f22212aad946a07a5f3d92184

PUBLIC TRANSPORT

BCC claimed that the Legacy Way tunnel would feature 2000 daily express buses. 
To fulfil this claim, BCC would have to run a bus every ~ 60 seconds all day in both directions for 18 hours to meet this figure. If it sounded too good to be true, that is because it was!

Letter received by Ozbob:


Bus Ramp to Link Legacy Way and INB

Now, what was interesting with Legacy way was apparently a bus ramp would have cost $50 million to install. You see, after boasting about making a $300 million saving funnily enough there wasn't $50 million available to fund the bus ramp. 

Quote"It was a $1.8 billion project and it is now $1.5 billion project," Cr Newman said

"Through this very competitive bid process, we have achieved a saving of $300 million."

Cr Newman said there would be no rate rises due to Northern Link.

Source: Express bus mooted for western suburbs
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/all-aboard-the-northern-link-express-20100920-15jmr.html

So there you have it, in their own words.

https://twitter.com/hangingshoes/status/1635372379315781634

^  according to the report the State is now going to do a $20 million study on the NWTC.

Minister Bailey and LM Schrinner to meet up to " discuss the congestion nightmare " ...





====

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1635386977125302272

 

https://twitter.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1635398987523170304

Queensland Parliament Hansard

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/events/han/2023/2023_03_14_DAILY.pdf

Questions Without Notice

Brisbane North, Transport Infrastructure

Mr MELLISH: My question is to the Minister for Transport and Main Roads. Can the minister
update the House on the government's transport infrastructure investment in Brisbane's northern
suburbs and is the minister aware of any alternative approaches?

Mr BAILEY: I thank the member for Aspley for his question and his interest in transport
infrastructure across north-west Brisbane and in his electorate. I was recently at the Beams Road level
crossing—where more than $200 million worth of transport infrastructure is going in—with the member
for Aspley and the member for Sandgate. That is part of our commitment to better transport
infrastructure in the north and north-west of Brisbane. We are not only doing that. We have completed
the Linkfield Road connection, which was a $31 million commitment in the member for Everton's
electorate. We are also doing the Northern Transitway for bus priority along Gympie Road. That is a
substantial public transport investment in terms of traffic up there. We are doing a $20 million study in
terms of working with the Moreton Bay council on transport through that whole corridor and that big
growth area up there. We are doing a substantial amount.

I want to commend the member for Aspley for working with us. We have $2.1 billion coming in
on the Gateway from Pine Rivers down towards where we completed the previous upgrade. There are
substantial levels of commitment by this government to the north and north-west of Brisbane, and that
is in stark contrast to the record of those opposite who savagely cut road funding when they were in
power. It is also in contrast to the Lord Mayor of Brisbane and his shady deal with Scott Morrison, where
he got $10 million out of the Morrison government to do a study on a corridor that is actually owned by
the state government and goes across two council areas. If ever there was a bit of a pong, then this is
one of them. We said to them that they should not do it, but they proceeded to do it. It was a political
stunt and I have called the Lord Mayor out on it over the last week or so because the study that the
Lord Mayor did came out with a motorway option and it lasted 24 hours. It lasted 24 hours because it
was annihilated by the local people who do not want a motorway through this area.

Mr Mander interjected.

Mr SPEAKER: The member for Everton will cease his interjections.

Mr BAILEY: The only studying on the North West Transport Corridor in recent times has been
the Brisbane City Council, not by us. For the Lord Mayor to try to scare people about suggesting that
we are resuming homes or knocking down bushland is a disgrace. It is one of the lowest acts I have
seen from a Lord Mayor in my adult lifetime. It is as likely as us building a tunnel to Auckland or a
monorail out to Birdsville. It is a ridiculous thing. Even the engineers of Australia—

Mr Mander interjected.

Mr SPEAKER: Member for Everton, you are warned under the standing orders.

Mr BAILEY: Even the engineers of Australia have panned it and so did RAIL Back on Track. Our
record is very strong in terms of transport infrastructure in this part. The council need to start spending
some money in north-west Brisbane, instead of spending all their money in the inner city.

^

" ... Mr BAILEY: Even the engineers of Australia have panned it and so did RAIL Back on Track. Our
record is very strong in terms of transport infrastructure in this part. The council need to start spending
some money in north-west Brisbane, instead of spending all their money in the inner city. ... "

I am so tired of Clowncil.

I miss living on the Gold Coast where despite the Mayor being a complete poltroon (for different reasons to Schrinner), stuff still got done and there was basically no partisan nonsense. 

They can't even get the basics right.  Every third day I seem to trip over something in the CBD, the road in front of my house is falling in, dog parks are dustbowls, street lights half dead, no footpaths on streets that have existed since the 1920s.  There seems to be no actual expertise at municipal anything in Brisbane.

Quote from: ozbob on March 14, 2023, 17:02:11 PM^

" ... Mr BAILEY: Even the engineers of Australia have panned it and so did RAIL Back on Track. Our
record is very strong in terms of transport infrastructure in this part. The council need to start spending
some money in north-west Brisbane, instead of spending all their money in the inner city. ... "

Good to see our work is getting noticed. Let's see if it leads to anything meaningful though.

I think it is worth just noting the motorway component again.

North West Transport Network - 2031 Making It Happen (BCC)
https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2022-08/20220809-north-west-transport-network-making-it-happen.pdf

NWTN major works Program 4a
North West Motorway (Western Alignment) - $9.2 billion

NWTN major works Program 4b
North West Motorway (Eastern Alignment) - $7.9 billion

Now the real standout here is the BRT Service:

BRT Service - $1.3 billion. <--- LOOK HOW CHEAP THIS IS, 8-9x cheaper than Car Rapid Transport (CRT) options.

BRT is achievable, and there is potential to do it incrementally as well (e.g. start with Brisbane Metro Buses running in bus or transit lanes first).