RAIL - Back On Track Forum

https://www.racq.com.au/about-us/news-and-media/news/2023/3/north-west-transport-corridor-must-deliver-for-the-long-term

North West Transport Corridor must deliver for the long-term
RACQ 08/03/2023

QuoteQueensland's peak motoring body is urging all levels of government to work together and think long-term when developing solutions for Brisbane's North West Transport Corridor.

RACQ's Head of Public Policy Dr Michael Kane said any proposal must consider Brisbane's booming population.

"By 2030, around 4.6 million people are expected to call south east Queensland home, with our population forecast to grow by 800,000 every decade past 2050," Dr Kane said.

"We are becoming a big world region with a population close to 6 million by 2050 and that requires big world thinking, planning and infrastructure solutions."

RACQ believes any proposal for the North West Transport Corridor must include tunnels for both rail and road.

"Large cities around the world put their major new public transport and urban motorways underground and that's how we need to be thinking," Dr Kane explained.

"Building significant transport corridors across local roads and on green space will be detrimental to Brisbane and its residents in the long-term.

"Green spaces are the lungs of Brisbane, and we need to preserve as much as possible to support healthy population growth."

https://twitter.com/CrJaredCassidy/status/1633346957824630784

https://twitter.com/eastTMoore/status/1633346122554150912

Pathetic!! 

LM Schrinner et al thought they could stich up a deal with IA with ScoMo and the ' blue team ' in charge.

Well, it didn't work.  Back to basics LM, stop trying to blame others for your own failure and manipulation of the publics real desires.

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https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1633349240998227968

" car free Olympics "   

Couriermail --> Motorists stranded as $14b tunnel plan blown up by political turf war $

QuoteMotorists are set to remain stuck on congested roads on Brisbane's northside for longer after a political fight between state and council knocked a proposed $14 billion tunnel off track.

The North West Motorway is meant to take up to 109,900 vehicles a day off the roads by 2031.

But a series of events and political fights has ended in Infrastructure Australia rejecting the tunnel project, sparking the Lord Mayor and Transport Minister to engage in verbal sparring.

A "frustrated" Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner accused the State Government of "pinching" federal funding meant to go toward the study, while Transport Minister Mark Bailey accused the city official of "pathetic behaviour"....

... But Mr Bailey said it was "ridiculous" for the council to have excluded them from the process as it was a state-owned road corridor.

"I understand he (the Lord Mayor) had a disgraceful scare conference this morning in the local park trying to suggest that somehow we've got plans to bulldoze the local parks," he said.

"It's pathetic. This is the most pathetic behaviour from the Lord Mayor that I have ever seen.

"We have got no plan to do any such thing."

Mr Bailey said he was happy to consider passing on the federal funds to the council if Mr Schrinner asked him – despite the council previously sending a letter to the government asking for the money.

Railway lobby group Rail Back on Track's Robert Dow welcomed the rejection calling the proposal a "failure of critical thinking and evaluation."

"Council should focus on adding bus lanes to roads in Brisbane's northwest and restart its successful BUZ program," Mr Dow said.

Bigger then Ben Hur this hey? 

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https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1633362240718995462

QuoteRACQ spokesman Michael Kane said the three levels of government needed to put aside their differences, work together in the city's interests.

...

"Sydney is spending $30 billion at the moment on major roads, tunnels and the metro system, so the money being talked about is completely reasonable in terms of a tunnel solution."

But NSW sold half their electricity network to fund it.

A billion here a billion there- it's too much.

This approach is just making engineering firms and concrete plant operators very rich.

Start with low cost planning options- more service and bus lanes.

Here's a challenge for BCC - put on some more BUZ routes.

Can someone remind me what percentage of locals in the study wanted a road corridor??

On 7 News this evening, Racq mentioned that they are in favour of a tunnel solution for both trains and road vehicles, rather than a surface solution.

Sydney's North Western suburbs had to go down the same path with tunnels for both rail and road due to above ground nature reserves and established housing.

Quote from: #Metro on March 08, 2023, 17:26:16 PM

QuoteRACQ spokesman Michael Kane said..

Start with low cost planning options- more service and bus lanes.

Here's a challenge for BCC - put on some more BUZ routes.

Improvements are coming to the bus network with the Skygate Gold Glider coming online later this year or next year as well as other new routes and the re work of the southern network.

Quote from: verbatim9 on March 08, 2023, 18:52:24 PMOn 7 News this evening, Racq mentioned that they are in favour of a tunnel solution for both trains and road vehicles, rather than a surface solution.

Sydney's North Western suburbs had to go down the same path with tunnels for both rail and road due to above ground nature reserves and established housing.

Remember that RACQ directly benefits from more people driving. You can take what they say with a grain of salt when it comes to PT.

Quote from: #Metro on March 08, 2023, 17:26:16 PM

QuoteRACQ spokesman Michael Kane said the three levels of government needed to put aside their differences, work together in the city's interests.

...

"Sydney is spending $30 billion at the moment on major roads, tunnels and the metro system, so the money being talked about is completely reasonable in terms of a tunnel solution."

But NSW sold half their electricity network to fund it.

A billion here a billion there- it's too much.

This approach is just making engineering firms and concrete plant operators very rich.

Start with low cost planning options- more service and bus lanes.

Here's a challenge for BCC - put on some more BUZ routes.

good old RACQ still pushing the "balanced approach" which is really just weasel words for "status quo" of road first prioritization!!

Quote from: ozbob on March 08, 2023, 16:01:00 PMhttps://www.racq.com.au/about-us/news-and-media/news/2023/3/north-west-transport-corridor-must-deliver-for-the-long-term

North West Transport Corridor must deliver for the long-term
RACQ 08/03/2023

QuoteQueensland's peak motoring body is urging all levels of government to work together and think long-term when developing solutions for Brisbane's North West Transport Corridor.

RACQ's Head of Public Policy Dr Michael Kane said any proposal must consider Brisbane's booming population.

"By 2030, around 4.6 million people are expected to call south east Queensland home, with our population forecast to grow by 800,000 every decade past 2050," Dr Kane said.

"We are becoming a big world region with a population close to 6 million by 2050 and that requires big world thinking, planning and infrastructure solutions."

RACQ believes any proposal for the North West Transport Corridor must include tunnels for both rail and road.

"Large cities around the world put their major new public transport and urban motorways underground and that's how we need to be thinking," Dr Kane explained.

"Building significant transport corridors across local roads and on green space will be detrimental to Brisbane and its residents in the long-term.

"Green spaces are the lungs of Brisbane, and we need to preserve as much as possible to support healthy population growth."

"Large cities around the world are prioritising active and public transport and stopping the construction of urban motorways and in many cases removing them"

We don't need to pay for two sets of infrastructure.

Brisbanetimes --> Claims of missing millions, power plays in dire Brisbane tunnel debate

QuoteTunnels are the solution to Brisbane's northside transport woes, and "short-term squabbles" between Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner and Transport Minister Mark Bailey should be ignored, the state's leading road transport group said on Wednesday.

"What we have to do is focus on designing a solution that works for the community, Brisbane and south-east Queensland," said Dr Michael Kane, the RACQ's head of public policy. ...

Sent to all outlets:

Political posturing not public transport sadly

9th March 2023

Good Morning,

What a pathetic spectacle the political bickering over the NWTC while public transport in SEQ goes further down the drain.

It is clear we need a proper Public Transport Authority in Queensland to take over the administration and management of public transport in Queensland. 

The silos of political incompetence and mediocrity are pushing us back and back.  The latest pathetic kerfuffle concerning the NWTC further testament. There is little doubt that Queensland must move forward with a proper stand alone Public Transport Authority (see https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=263069 ). The Translink brand can remain as such, but a proper authority similar to the Public Transport Authority of Western Australia ( https://www.pta.wa.gov.au/ ) is needed.

Simply blundering along with the failure structures at present is only making everything worse.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on March 08, 2023, 03:35:31 AMSent to all outlets:

Infrastructure Australia Rejects BCC NWTC Proposal

8th March 2023

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) welcomes reports that Infrastructure Australia has rejected Brisbane City Council's (BCC) proposal for a road tunnel for the North West Transport Corridor (NWTC)(1).  RAIL Back On Track members are not surprised.

Brisbane City Council's proposal was a failure of critical thinking and evaluation. For example, BCC claimed on Page 17 of its business case that packaging a North West Motorway with Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) on Gympie Road were complementary initiatives. And that without the delivery of a North West Motorway, " a BRT in the form proposed is not feasible due to its impact on road capacity ... " (2).

In our opinion, this key claim made by BCC is false (3).

A 'Brisbane Metro' BRT service up Gympie Road would absorb all of the motorists from the resumed car lane, and still have spare capacity to absorb public transport passengers. No North West Motorway is required. A 'Brisbane Metro' BRT service operating every 2 minutes with 150 passengers on board would carry around 4500 passengers/hour/direction at peak. In comparison, a general car lane carries around 2160 passengers/hour/lane at peak.

In our opinion, the true purpose of including an unnecessary and unwanted North West Motorway in the business case was to psychologically compensate motorists for the loss of a car lane. And to prevent motorists shifting mode to catching buses.

Council should focus on adding bus lanes to roads in Brisbane's Northwest and restart its successful BUZ programme. If the current council administration cannot do this, perhaps a new administration will.

RAIL Back On Track supports a new rail corridor to the Northside. For full details see https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=266857

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

References:

1. 'Back to the  drawing board': North-west tunnel proposal rejected
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/queensland/back-to-the-drawing-board-north-west-brisbane-tunnel-proposal-rejected-20230307-p5cq7n.html

2. North west transport network program business case
https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2022-08/20220809-north-west-transport-network-making-it-happen.pdf

3. Capacity Calculations - Car
3600 seconds/hour divided by 2 second car spacing = 1800 vehicles/hour/lane
If 20% of the cars have a passenger, this is then 1800 vehicles/hour/lane x 1.2
= 2160 passengers/hour/direction (pphd).

4. Capacity Calculations - Brisbane Metro Bus
60 minutes / 2 minute bus frequency x 150 passengers/bus
= 4500 passengers/hour/direction

5. Gympie Road Lane Removal Scenario
Bus 4500 pphd - Car 2160 pphd = 2340 pphd spare capacity on the bus left after all the displaced motorists fill the bus.
Conclusion - No Northwest Motorway Construction required.

Facebook ...

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1633519088302702594

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1633383582679945217

LM Schrinner is talking up the $10 million to deflect from the failure of their business case.

Disregard of the public's wishes, most want a public and active transport solution, not road tunnels.

The Brisbane media swallows it hook, line and sinker. 

Doomed jurisdiction I am afraid.

I don't think the NWTC will ever be used as a transport corridor.  It is far too late.

If tunnels are the solution then a tunnel under the NWTC may not be the best location for either rail or road. Tunnels can be done away from the corridor.

It will need a proper comprehensive study to determine that.  The State is not really interested in using the NWTC for rail.  As we know the list of public and active transport infrastructure deficits is a very long one. 

Rejected Brisbane tunnel proposal sparks bitter dispute with Queensland government | 7NEWS

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1633585901577306112

Quote from: OzbobI don't think the NWTC will ever be used as a transport corridor.  It is far too late.

If tunnels are the solution then a tunnel under the NWTC may not be the best location for either rail or road. Tunnels can be done away from the corridor.

Exactly. If it has to be tunnel then the rail line does not have to follow the corridor as it just becomes a linear park.

You would have to evaluate other options, such as under Gympie Road or under or above the Old Northern Road axis.

As for improving PT they can do that tomorrow by boosting the BUZ network.

I'm not sure why both BCC and TMR cannot see that, maybe it's too cheap, too quick and too simple to grasp it.

Why is it a stretch to use the NWTC?

It's literally just the BCC trying to 'poison the well' by saying its 'not possible' to use it.

Which is stupid because:

CAMCOS has trees, waterways. existing houses etc. How come SCRC is not saying its impossible? Quite the opposite, they are actively campaigning for it.


Kippa Ring was in a similar state before it was built. Again, MBRC supported the line, they didn't try and say they should build a motorway under ANZAC avenue instead.


In fact, go look at any other future rail line in SEQ. They all have existing bushland or housing directly adjoining it.

It is not BCC as such Gazza, it is the State.  The State doesn't seem to want to use it. 

Really?
I thought Bailey had indicated that he was into the idea.

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-s-northside-needs-new-rail-corridor-says-minister-20230117-p5cd8d.html

Quote"We've got that one spine rail link coming in from the Sunshine Coast that has a number [of other rail lines] that flow into it," he said.
"But clearly, when you're looking at the medium term, you'll need a second rail corridor coming into Brisbane."

Quote"There's no doubt that the North West Transport Corridor is a really important part of planning for a growing region," he said. "It clearly needs to be a multimodal corridor.

QuoteQueensland Transport's Western Brisbane Transport Network Strategy report, released in May 2009, said a rail line from Alderley to Strathpine would be viable "from 2026" at a cost (then) of $1.2 billion, "plus rolling stock".

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Community-and-environment/Planning-for-the-future/Preserved-transport-corridors/North-West-Transport-Corridor

Quote*The corridor was preserved in the early 1980s based on current planning standards for a 4-lane median-divided road.
*In recent years, the corridor has evolved from a motorway project to an integrated transport corridor that caters for walking, cycling, rail and road.

Is there a direct statement from the state etc that rules it out?

Call me an optimist, but just because they aren't in a hurry to build something doesn't mean they don't want to built it whatsoever.

QuoteIt is not BCC as such Gazza, it is the State.  The State doesn't seem to want to use it.

I think there is a shift underway.

We are moving into an era where projects are simply going to become too numerous and too expensive that they will be priced and prioritised out of existence.

Very large and dispersed settlements require a lot of lines to feed into the CBD. I don't think it is possible to deliver on all of them in a reasonable time at a reasonable cost.

There is a lot of focus on 'long term' and 'very long term' visions, but a project in the distant future is also a project that isn't delivering today.

BCC still has not got the basics of the bus network right in this part of Brisbane, and this is much cheaper to fix than $9.5 to $14 billion, and doesn't come with the 10+ year lead time that these projects typically take.

Taking the bus-fix approach also means that while RACQ is spending energy on their road tunnel vision which cost $$$ billions, we can possibly get improvement to PT now in that area.

I would also just say that the revelations of a letter from BCC to TMR inviting TMR to partake in the consultation (which was rejected), and an unpaid invoice that was allegedly due in April 2022 from the State Government reflect very poorly on the Transport Minister.

QuoteBCC still has not got the basics of the bus network right in this part of Brisbane, and this is much cheaper to fix than $9.5 to $14 billion, and doesn't come with the 10+ year lead time that these projects typically take.

Agree that part of Brisbane needed more BUZ routes yesterday but the NWTC is also about supporting fast rail.

I'm not sure if I subscribe to the notion that projects are being priced out of existence.

Aside from Adelaide, the evidence seems to be the number of projects happening is increasing.

NSW, once upon a time they basically struggled to build half of the Paramatta Chatswood link, Now they have 4 metro lines happening simultaneously, plus new LR.

WA, The Mandurah project was impressive as a singular project, but now they have 2 extensions (Yanchep, Byford) and two entirely new lines (Thornlie Cockburn, Ellenbrook), this is on top of the airport line that just opened.

Vic....Approaching 100 LX removals, Airport line, SRL, various general network improvements.

I guess the point I'm trying to make, is that if growing populations and cost pressures were pricing projects out of existence, we would see evidence of that.

Bit here Gazza --> https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=268160

Our position is to support the second rail north.  No worries there, I am just being realistic.

Quote"Despite years of speculation about the need for a second railway line into Brisbane, the Minister for Transport, Mark Bailey, recently described the lone line from the north as 'not sustainable'and no new railway line is on the drawing board for Caboolture West."

I think perhaps a couple of statements got conflated.

-No Rail for Caboolture West. Yep 100% know the government isn't interested in building it 

-Lone line from the north 'not sustainable'. I think what Bailey was saying is that continuing to rely upon a single rail corridor to the north is not sustainable for the long term, since eventually the line would be under too much pressure. This tallies with earlier statements in the BT.

I dont think he was saying that NWTC was not sustainable.

I wouldn't put weight on anything the Transport Minister says.

Only when contracts are signed would I believe it.

Just yesterday the Transport Minister was in the media saying no invitation to the NWTC consultation.

But then BCC produced such an invitation with an explanation that it was rejected because the State Government wasn't the lead.

That's a VERY different story!!

QuoteAnd while Bailey had long claimed not to have had the chance to take part in the study, a letter emerged showing council asked his department to participate in 2019.

Source: https://brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/queensland/claims-of-missing-millions-power-plays-in-dire-brisbane-tunnel-debate-20230308-p5cqgf.html

It appears that MBRC was invited with a similar invitation and participated.

Politicians in general are very good in telling you what you want to hear... beware!

Quote from: #Metro on March 09, 2023, 09:53:51 AMI wouldn't put weight on anything the Transport Minister says.

Only when contracts are signed would I believe it.

Just yesterday the Transport Minister was in the media saying no invitation to the NWTC consultation.

But then BCC produced such an invitation with an explanation that it was rejected because the State Government wasn't the lead.

That's a VERY different story!!

It appears that MBRC was invited with a similar invitation and participated.

Politicians in general are very good in telling you what you want to hear... beware!

Let's be real though. It is the States corridor, so why should BCC be taking the lead on the case study? If the State had participated and BCC was still the lead, would the outcome be different? I doubt it. BCC would have still pushed for it's all mighty road tunnel.

QuoteLet's be real though. It is the States corridor, so why should BCC be taking the lead on the case study?

Great question RowBro.

That said the busway is also the state's corridor and that hasn't prevented BCC doing studies involving that and doing modification works at busway stations.

Quote from: #Metro on March 09, 2023, 10:04:41 AM

QuoteLet's be real though. It is the States corridor, so why should BCC be taking the lead on the case study?

Great question RowBro.

That said the busway is also the state's corridor and that hasn't prevented BCC doing studies involving that and doing modification works at busway stations.

That's a good point, however I would consider the difference being that the busway is an existing corridor, whereas the NWTC is an undeveloped corridor. It's not like building a road tunnel is some small thing like extending a platform here, and adding a stop sign there. It's on a different magnitude of scale and can't really be compared.

When the busways were being built, the council obviously had a lot of input, but it was the State that was doing the bulk of the studies and work. This still doesn't really compare regardless, however, since the busway corridor for the most part wasn't even on existing State-owned land. Much of it was bought for the project at the time of development.

BCC is a state government agency created by Parliament under The City of Brisbane Act 2010.

It exercises no original powers only those delegated to it by the State.

So IMHO there is nothing there preventing BCC doing such a study.

LGAs have even paid for State Govt infrastructure such as GC LRT.

If the final solution was a tunnel it wouldn't be on the corridor but under it.

Remember, the NWTC study was funded by Morrison because the Federal LNP wanted a toll tunnel for the northside and the BCC felt that was the most likely thing they could get funding from the Feds for.

Had the LNP retained power at the Federal level, it is likely it would have been delivered in a similar manner to Legacy Way.

Lets not lose sight of this reality.

Quote from: #Metro on March 09, 2023, 10:48:09 AMBCC is a state government agency created by Parliament under The City of Brisbane Act 2010.

It exercises no original powers only those delegated to it by the State.

So IMHO there is nothing there preventing BCC doing such a study.

LGAs have even paid for State Govt infrastructure such as GC LRT.

If the final solution was a tunnel it wouldn't be on the corridor but under it.

I mean yes. Nothing is stopping them. The issue is the fact that they have now gone running to the hill when their proposal got rejected be IA. The issue is that they expect the State Government to partake in the study of *their own* corridor when they won't be able to take control over the study. It doesn't take a blind man to predict that a study led by the BCC won't exactly be unbiased. Even the current mess of a state government would be able to predict that. It was already a waste of taxpayers' money. We should be glad the State government wasn't also throwing money into the fire pit.