RAIL - Back On Track Forum

It's not as simple as reducing the span of hours at night. There's more issues than that.

Take morning peak. I assume 10 minute or better frequency. A 10 minute morning peak frequency servicing an area that airport workers have mostly already started or where a large bulk of Skygate workers start after 9.30am (dfo opens to the public at 10am). Or do we reintroduce multiple confusing terminus locations/running patterns such as the 306, 322, 327, 338, 357, 359.

And the worker claim is usually only if they live along that corridor due to the poor network design. Tradecoast is another problem. Despite being next door to Skygate the only pedestrian access is via KSD. The industrial area around nudgee road and Qantas drive/lomandra drive opens from 6am or earlier around the airport depending on the business and that also varies depending on your position ie warehouse staff or admin staff. The golf course at Skygate is really hampering any future need for a hf service as it's just a waste of space from a development side of things.

Sure Skygate has a 24/7 woolworths but if you run the Gold bus along Nudgee road that makes 3 woolworths locations between Hamilton and Skygate. That limits your potential patronage to woolworths Skygate as youre unlikely to get people from Hamilton going past 2 woolworths stores for grocery shopping. It also limits the incentive of going there as people in Ascot/Doomben have multiple choices along with avoiding pt altogether by walking there. There's also a direct lack of interchange services which is further going to limit its patronage and usefulness.

But we should also be asking does Nudgee road/dfo really need this type of frequency/service? If so why does it need it? And if it does need it why don't other areas that need pt have pt?

While I don't have an issue with running services there I do have issues running a glider style service there when there are serious fundamental flaws that reducing night hours simply does not address. It also reinforces bcc paying for services like the maroon glider that is majority funded solely by bcc rather than having a properly designed and run pt network.

And the deed still has another 12 years to go. While TMR have been in discussions since the start of last year there is still no guarantee that tmr will acquire the rights.

I do agree that a 10-minute headway is overkill for most of the day, however until the Northside bus network is reformed there likely won't be another opportunity to get service there. If BCC is willing to pay for it, I sure won't be complaining.

It's not just the shops and the workers at the shops that require public transport to and from the area. Its the other workers around the Airport precinct that are mostly shift workers as well as the visitors and the passengers to the air terminals that require a high frequency (HF) bus. It also presents an opportunity to address the non-existence of public transport services to and from the cruise terminal in conjunction with this proposed high frequency service. This can be done by contracting BAC and their subcontractor in providing a service (paid or free) depending on the funding model. I reckon it should be a paid service as a zone 1 fare, collected with smart ticketing equipment. Skygate will make a great interchange as there is room for layovers that provide facilities for drivers, as well as an abundance of electrical infrastructure. This can allow for fast overhead chargers (if required) for new electric articulated buses other than the proposed metro buses, as they come on line after 2025.

This will be the best outcome for the years to come and can also compliment the proposed Skygate station and the BAC's mass transit solution, being an people mover similar to what connects the Singapore airport terminals and precincts.

Quote from: RowBro on January 03, 2023, 09:32:26 AMI do agree that a 10-minute headway is overkill for most of the day, however until the Northside bus network is reformed there likely won't be another opportunity to get service there. If BCC is willing to pay for it, I sure won't be complaining.

20 mins or better is what is proposed and 10 min throughout the peak period as with other Glider and BUZ services throughout Brisbane. I believe between the hours of 0100 and 0500 its every 30 minutes, as what is currently the deal with the weekend night services. This was stated in the recent bus review that closed last month.

I am hopeful that business case will recommend a Glider to and from the area as it will for the first time provide people living high density areas of Woolloongabba, (East) CBD Fortitude Valley (West) Newstead, Albion (East) Hamilton, Ascot and Hamilton North Shore with a decent bus service, that connects relevant areas and transfer points.

It can also service people from Kangaroo Point as they will be able to easily access the bus stop on Mary Street with a (10 mins max walk) using the new Active transport bridge that connects the CBD with Kangaroo Point.   

Couriermail --> Urgent calls to revitalise 'derelict' suburb surrounding $177m international cruise terminal $

QuoteIndustrial views, flood-prone streets neighboured by a sewage treatment plant and a lack of cheap transport options confront cruise ship passengers when disembarking in Brisbane.

Nearly 150,000 passengers have floated through the new $177m Brisbane International Cruise Terminal since its unveiling at Pinkenba in June.

Queensland's tourism market, now able to welcome in the world's largest liners at a deeper port, is set to reap the economic rewards of more than a $1bn by 2032.

But, it's on the drive out of the new terminal, past a neighbouring water treatment facility, piles of dirt and rubble for refineries, a house removal business and the temporary signage reassuring passengers they are not lost, where upgrade calls are being made. ...

Quote... Brisbane City Council lashed out at the state government for "claiming credit when the facility opened, but failing to invest any money into it".

A spokeswoman said the council had invested millions into the nearby road networks but said it was the state government's turn to fund further works.

"It's very clear to everyone that access improvements are urgently required," a council spokeswoman said.

"This is a major tourism facility of statewide significance on state-owned land and it's time for them to put some real money into improving access."

Port of Brisbane chief executive Neil Stephens said it only site in South East Queensland capable of receiving the world's largest cruises without "major, environmentally" disruptions.

With no public transport options to or from the Brisbane International Cruise Terminal, locals or visitors looking to commute from the CBD will be hit with a $40 tax fare and rideshare options from $20 due to the lack of public transport in the area. ...

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1611730460425736193

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1611731124497285123

Having a shuttle ferry similar to the CityCat on cruise ship days departing from South Bank solves a lot of issues:

- Ferry is high capacity, much higher than a bus or even Brisbane Metro (170 pax)
- Class A ROW, no car traffic
- Excellent arrival experience, nice views, see the Story Bridge
- Possibility of serving refreshments onboard (can't do this on a bus)
- Possibility of more than one stop (e.g. Tenneriffe, Hamilton)

- Some days of the year it is not possible to operate a ferry due to weather conditions (fog, flood, high wind). For these rare days a bus backup will be required.

Ferries are more expensive to operate than buses due to the extra crew, but I don't think cost is a concern for luxury travellers.

Front Page ! 

https://twitter.com/couriermail/status/1611829143968313344

Ferry - Buy or Own Decision

A CityCat style ferry would cost $4 million e.a., probably would need one spare as well.

Option would be there to contract RiverCity Ferries to do it for a fee if they do not want to pay to self-operate.

BCC would need to give permission to dock at Ferry terminals. Could potentially depart from South Bank 3 Ferry terminal.

  

A 13 min electric bus trip via Myrtletown to Skygate has a significant lower visual impact.

Likely cheaper to run at a higher frequency and can provide a reliable connection to the air terminals and airtrain via Skygate for a single zone fare.

In addition it can connect to the proposed high frequency Gold Glider at Skygate for onward journeys to Hamilton and City.

**Bus services contracted to BAC by Translink

I don't think this group of customers are that time or price sensitive. They are paying top dollar for an experience. It's not about getting to the destination the fastest.

They want a Safari tour, so give them one 🙂. I think that is the key to informing the approach.

A bus may have less visual impact, but there aren't really residents out that way to see the bus.

Rather, I think considering the passenger experience of arrival and departure should be the perspective and focus.

The Brisbane Citycat's busiest days are Sundays. Which supports this idea.

Connections can be provided at Hamilton to the Glider and South Bank to the SE Busway.

I don't think any one is opposed to a ferry service, but it would be more expensive to run and is subject to weather and water conditions.

Maybe run four ferry services, two in either direction on cruise days in addition to regular bus services.

If you have ever been on a cruise there are a mixture of people that are budget conscious as well as the well off. People also disembark the ship in dribs and drabs throughout the day, thus a bus service is likely to fulfil the needs of those people.

A bus service to Skygate would also be ideal for crew as they are very budget conscious.

I also think that the road needs some attention, ideally with landscaping and segregated active transport pathways.

Quote from: #Metro on January 08, 2023, 11:28:21 AMConnections can be provided at Hamilton to the Glider and South Bank to the SE Busway.

It's not really a connection to the busway or the train stations at Southbank. It's about a 10 min walk.

I believe the ferries don't connect to any train station enroute. However they do connect to bus services at UQ and along Coronation drive easily.

Just to clarify- I'm not proposing Translink involvement. The said ferries would be privately paid for by the Port of Brisbane from berthing fee.

Just get Connexion to run a shuttle direct  to Roma St coach stop.

All these convoluted routes Will never work. They would be too slow for workers getting to the terminal. If someone is having a stopover on a cruise you're not going to waste precious Onshore time
.

Not really concerned about budget travellers because if paying $20 for a transfer is too expensive they should just stay home

In Melbourne extra Route 109 trams operate to Port of Melbourne on days when cruise ships are in port so presumably there's some demand for public transport to/from cruise ships. 

Aside from passengers and workers there could be some friends and family who would be inclined to make the trip to see people off if there's a decent transport link.

Running a bus from a decent transfer point would be a relatively cheap way to test the demand, Doomben is probably a good option as access from train to bus is pretty simple unlike Eagle Junction or Toombul.  Run extra trains in conjunction with the bus.

'It's a no-brainer': Cruise lines push for port to CBD river link

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/it-s-a-no-brainer-cruise-lines-push-for-port-to-cbd-river-link-20230108-p5cb3y.html

Quote from: Brisbane_TimesA second cruise line using Brisbane's International Cruise Terminal at Luggage Point is pushing for a river connection for tourists to Brisbane's CBD.

QuoteBrisbane public transport lobby group RAIL Back On Track called on the Queensland government to explore opening the old rail line from Doomben to Pinkenba – closed since September 1993 – to help passengers.

Spokesman Robert Dow said it would be worth evaluating the disused line for both the expanding Doomben/Hamilton area and as a cruise terminal link.

Carnival has stated a similar opinion to Royal Caribbean in that they see a fast cat into the Brisbane CBD as a viable option.

Though I read the line "work with ferry operators", which sounds like a euphemism for getting TransLink and TransLink's subsidy involved.

I think they can solve this themselves by contacting RiverCity Ferries.

Brisbanetimes --> 'It's a no-brainer': Cruise lines push for port to CBD river link

QuoteA second cruise line using Brisbane's International Cruise Terminal at Luggage Point is pushing for a river connection for tourists to Brisbane's CBD.

There is no public transport between the new private-sector terminal and the city, and cabs cost between $40 and $50.

The only alternative to taxis are shuttle buses arranged by the cruise lines, which collectively bring tourism revenue of $1.3 billion into Brisbane annually.

Royal Caribbean International vice-president Gavin Smith last month said placing a pier near the Luggage Point cruise ship terminal for a "Fast Cat" to the city had to be a priority for Brisbane.

"Prioritising an $8 river connection over a $50 taxi journey" would be a "winner", said Smith, who is also the Australia/New Zealand managing director. ...

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1612098118216224775

Translink have also stated that the customer base is not there within that precinct for high capacity services like trains or Buz services. Therefore, a shuttle from Skygate and the air terminals is the most cost effective and appropriate for the next decade. (Contracted by Translink and run by BAC)

A ferry would be nice but I can only see a couple run in each direction on each cruise day. The set up costs for a new wharf and the running costs will be quite expensive compared to an electric bus shuttle run by BAC to and from Skygate and the cruise terminal.

SEQ has proven time and time again that shuttle type routes between isolated locations don't work and eventually get cut. Mt Cootha shuttle for example.

Its not "cost effective" if the route ends up being an air parcel carrier. Doesn't matter if it's Translink or BAC or whoever running it.

If you can only afford to run as far as skygate (probably one of the quietest bus interchanges in Brisbane) you're already implicitly saying you know the route is low patronage and are looking for ways to make it cheaper.

The problem is as the Mt cootha shuttle indicated, it's possible to be "too cheap" in your planning to the point the route becomes irrelevant to most people.

This is 100% an issue for the cruise lines to solve.  They wanted the terminal up there.  That is because there are not inconsiderable time, environmental and financial benefits to having nearly 200K GRT ships not going any further up the river than Luggage Point.

7 News--->https://youtu.be/lLEc-s3fI64

A private sector company decided to build a cruise terminal in an ugly isolated location next to a sewerage plant because it made operations easier for them.

Now they want the public sector to come in and use taxpayers money to beautify an industrial area.

What's wrong? I thought the private sector was supposed to understand what consumers want.

Quote from: Gazza on January 09, 2023, 10:53:56 AMA private sector company decided to build a cruise terminal in an ugly isolated location next to a sewerage plant because it made operations easier for them.

Now they want the public sector to come in and use taxpayers money to beautify an industrial area.

What's wrong? I thought the private sector was supposed to understand what consumers want.

Just like an airport was built with 10,000's of car parks and then turned to the State/Federal Governments via the media and said "Fix the Congestion".  Mega businesses (with lots of political sway) have always internalised the profits and externalised the costs.

I believe the road improvements needed are well before the gate entry of the Port. Pretty much from the Gateway Bridge to road deteriorates. Once you get past the Pinkenba hotel it becomes worse.

Couriermail --> Push for City Cat extension to bypass Pinkenba terminal eyesore $

QuoteA City Cat extension connecting the CBD to the new Brisbane International Cruise Terminal has been put forward amid calls for the "derelict" Pinkenba to undergo a major facelift.

Public transport and the overall appeal of the route to and from the $177m terminal were laid bare in a Sunday-Mail report leading to calls for the suburb to be revitalised.

It's also sparked suggestions for the City Cat service to be extended to Pinkenba to provide with a direct route into the city for passengers to spend money locally.

Queensland Tourism Industry Council chief executive Brett Fraser said the tourism sector supported upgrades to the terminal surrounds.

Mr Fraser said the state's tourism industry had long been urging all parties involved to work together towards a meaningful solution.

"While Queenslanders can be proud of their world-class international cruise terminal, the surrounding area would benefit from a rejuvenation," Mr Fraser said. ...

@BAC @TMR @translinkseq  @BCC We can have a a good public transport solution similar to what Long beach has with a networked approach in regard to their Passport and Aqualink services.

Stage 1 - Road and segregated  active transport link improvements.

**Stage 1/2 - Contracted services with BAC to run electric bus services 30 mins or better 7am-9pm) on cruise days from the International Cruise terminal to the air terminals via Skygate.

**Stage 2/3 - High Frequency Gold Glider connections from early 2024 from Skygate to Woolloongabba via Hamilton North Shore, Valley and CBD. In addition to 6 open water Double Decker CAT services (3 in each direction) to and from the Southbank via Teneriffe and the CBD.

**Donates cashless paid services with fares collected by smart ticketing equipment.

You need more than 1 attraction to support a Passport/Aqualink style service

Someones added too much sudds to the bathtub again.

HSR service from Brisbane Cruise terminal to Wellcamp Airport via Skygate.

I think some thoughts of reestablishing the train line was real pie in the sky stuff, due to costs, E.g. new land resumptions, construction and ongoing running costs.

A shuttle and a networked approach is the best option here, as it's cost effective while delivering reliable, fast and affordable travel outcomes for the travelling public.

It's likely to be the outcome of this debate, because it's the most logical and affordable.

P.s one word answers and replies such as foam does not help advocate for good public transport outcomes. It actually discourages people from taking note or using the forum for public transport solutions.

Mega-foam. Two words. Okay I'll play ball.

Reuse the existing line. Signalling not existent and is all manual interlocking. Capacity constraints eagle junction to Doomben. The line isn't actually connected after pinkenba. The old line is now on private property north of pinkenba and at hamilton. The line doesn't go all the way there on both ends. The former railway line is on the wrong point. You have a canal and former oil processing plant inbetween. What else. Ah yes. Doomben-Hamilton has its own problems. Rollingstock and mtce facilities. Cost is a big one. You can see how it's more than just foam.

Bus services. They won't run via airport access roads for obvious safety reasons. So we can get rid of that foam.

Bus Frequency on cruise ship days. That defeats the purpose of workers out that way using pt as a reliable service. Workers out that way are mostly made up of shift workers or workers that require access to their own transport.

Skygate. Skygate is not a proper interchange or trip generator. It doesn't connect to anything in the north. Doesn't connect to anything in the west. Transit time to the city and beyond becomes a joke. There are no interchange facilities. Skygate doesn't even justify a gold glider bus let alone being a major interchange location. A lot of media hype has been bcc playing games rather than providing a public transport service.

The area is highly industrial with minimal public transport and minimal public transport needs. The school closed down out there at pinkenba due to lack of attendance.

I think the demand has been established for Metro and Gold Glider services to the airport precinct, hence the business case.

Demand is there for buses to and from the airport terminals to the cruise terminal via Skygate. This is due to a lot of budget conscious people that fly from all over the state as well as intra state that require cheap and affordable bus services to the cruise terminal. There are a number of budget conscious workers who may also like to catch a bus as well to and from the cruise terminal including crew.

Skygate is growing into a well established interchange for the airport and port precincts.

While connecting to the rail line at Doomben is plausible it's not really a place to start dumping tourists and workers to a low infrequent train line. Any increase of services or upgrades will cost a substantial amount of money.

We also know that for every km you extend a bus service for little added benefit can be expensive  E.g. transfers to Doomben can be illogical and uneconomical when the closest transfer point is Skygate. I doubt that BCC will run regular services to and from Doomben to the cruise terminal. Thus, contracting BAC to run services via Skygate is the most feasible.

Re If you feel the need to advocate for Doomben line upgrades it shouldn't be tied to bus services to the Port of Brisbane. Rather it should be a separate project coming out of the QR maintenance and improvements budget, thus another thread.

There are also calls to have a public transport service in place as soon as possible, thus a bus is the quickest solution. Unlike other solutions that require huge infrastructure spends may take years if not a decade to get up and running.

Contracting BAC via it's sub contractor to provide a service can be done in a minimum of 6 months with the purchase of a couple new buses and hiring of two new drivers. Better still, they may also be able to manage it with their existing fleet of buses and drivers.

Quote from: Gazza on January 12, 2023, 15:39:08 PMYou need more than 1 attraction to support a Passport/Aqualink style service

Skygate in itself is an attraction alongside it's side attractions of mini golf and the upcoming auto mall/drive track. No doubt new things will be coming online in the future and they may introduce new connections to the islands from the Port of Brisbane as well.

Quote from: Gazza on January 12, 2023, 17:50:50 PMHSR service from Brisbane Cruise terminal to Wellcamp Airport via Skygate.

Maglev Bus!