RAIL - Back On Track Forum

QuoteGrainCorp still has active sidings at Pinkenba. At the moment trucks heavily use the area. On the weekend you can swear that it's a week day with the amount of truck movements. They haven't been used in a while but they do have intentions once their fright network is up and running. The loop has been upgraded a year or two back with cement sleepers. More ex-QR locomotives have just arrived back from South Africa (Aurizon sold them - very sketchy stuff with that sale on the SA side) and are being overhauled at Warwick.

I'm sure they do. But like any business knows not every customer is worth servicing. Maybe they need to move their operations to the other side of the river at Port of Brisbane which has port and dedicated freight railway access.

QuoteYou also have significant issues at Eagle Junction even if it's just 1 new platform for shuttles to avoid conflicts with the subs. You also have the flat junction/subs. To successfully have a dedicated platform you need to resume properties on the Southside of the track and rebuild a road bridge. Then retain access. It also sharpens the eagle junction curve. Engineering everything is possible but there's a cost associated with it aswell.

I'm sure there is a cost and an engineering appraisal involved. Railways aren't going to land on a silver platter. Even keeping it as a railway and upgrading it will have its own issues. There isn't an issue-free option.

Resumptions - happens all the time.

QuoteDual track is a very costly exercise. LRT has its own heavy cost conversion.

Dual track should not be as costly as much of the land acquisition has already been done. The current situation has high opportunity cost - services are operating at the convenience of the administration and not "customer-centric". The bare minimum should be 15-minute services during the day.

It is quite pointless to run a railway that close to the CBD on 1/2 hourly frequencies, even if it is low cost do do so. By the time the train turns up, a car would be in the CBD and parked already.

Once again showing your lack of knowledge of railway operations. It's not always about passenger operations.

QuoteI'm sure they do. But like any business knows not every customer is worth servicing.

You know the same goes for passenger operations that you are going on about.

QuoteMaybe they need to move their operations to the other side of the river at Port of Brisbane which has port and dedicated freight railway access.

Port of Brisbane doesn't have true dedicated rail access. It's one track in and that same track back out. It has a loop, a coal unloader, a grain unloader and a single container loader. It's also a reason why existing operators send freight to the port via truck from AR instead of on a train (both PN and Aurizon). The Port Of Brisbane see's more out of state locomotives on passenger trains than  it does on out of state freight trains. That's how rare it is for freight trains down south to visit the port of Brisbane via rail (also got slugged with double unloading fees and track usage fees - was cheaper to send on a truck). Remember only 3% of freight through the POB is via rail.

GrainCorp already have operations on the southside of the river at the port of Brisbane however there are limited freight paths/timing/train length restrictions of travelling through the BSA along with the port itself having restrictions on ships. POB favours larger containerised ships instead of bulk cargo which the northern banks of the river are set up for. This is one of the reasons why those out west don't want the inland rail to go to Brisbane but instead have a dual gauge inland rail to Gladstone because they can put it on a longer train, use heavier gauge track, don't have to worry about train paths and timing restrictions in the BSA area or limited facilities at the port of brisbane/more choice of ports/facilities/spur lines and on a ship faster if it went to Gladstone instead of brisbane. Gladstone also has dedicated rail access at many of their ports as does Townsville. Just open a google map and compare the rail facilites at Townsville/Gladstone to Brisbane. That basically takes away a lot of the benefits of the Brisbane-Toowoomba Inland Rail section. They already have major operations set up on the northside of the river which was why the Doomben line was originally built in the first place. It was all industrial. Some still want a rail link but are unable due to QR selling off the  land. Wagners built a facility on the northside of the river because of the slowness of the port of brisbane in providing facilities and congestion (I think it was something like 55 million they spent). Rumor has it Wagners are keen on a rail link to link their Pinkenba facility to Toowoomba and Wacol but at the moment there's no one able to provide a rail contract as of yet. They also allow 3rd party access to their facilities.

TMR have already investigated this. InlandRail isn't a viable future solution to solve the problem. The road network can't handle the increasing load of additional trucks from the west going to the port or facilities along the river and needs to be put back onto trains. QR have reduced access fees on the western line to make this happen. Aurizon dumped nearly all contracts, refused to accept contracts along with QR having a non complete clause (since now expired) which is why GrainCorp is picking up the pieces as they have this market opening up to them. Aurizon scrapped (still are scrapping electric locos) and sold a lot of excess locomotives overseas so local rail operations couldn't have rollingstock readily available to compete with them or to limit available train paths with their Queensland operations. It was a costly exercise to have 2 new locomotives manufactured by Watco overseas as a stop gap so they are now buying ex-QR/Aurizon locomotives back from those in South Africa to use back here. Last locomotive was unloaded at the port and hauled to Warwick earlier in the week I believe.

QuoteI'm sure there is a cost and an engineering appraisal involved. Railways aren't going to land on a silver platter. Even keeping it as a railway and upgrading it will have its own issues. There isn't an issue-free option.

Resumptions - happens all the time.

QuoteDual track should not be as costly as much of the land acquisition has already been done. The current situation has high opportunity cost - services are operating at the convenience of the administration and not "customer-centric". The bare minimum should be 15-minute services during the day.

Yes, resumptions do happen all the time. However. As you like to continually remind everyone here. Cost and benefit. They already have the land yes but as I mentioned it's a corridor based around pre DAA.

I've mentioned it but I'll add on.

Clayfield:
Station doesn't meet DAA. Needs to be demolished and rebuilt. Pedestrian access to the north east of the station would not be possible with a second track which is where the bulk of your station entry comes from. At the moment the north east and Sandgate road are the only 2 entrance points to the station. The north east entrance is also just bearly meets DAA requirements as you can touch both fences while standing. To have access maintained you need to resume an apartment complex. A proper entrance to the east of the station is needed for easier access to the station. In a nutshell property resumptions, new pedestrian overpass and a full station rebuild is required.

Hendra:
New platform and DAA compliant overpass. Access to the north west at the moment does not meet DAA requirements. Like Clayfield you can touch the fence on both sides while standing. Then you have the level crossing and its works.

Ascot:
None of the platforms meet DAA so they need to be raised. Some heritage stuff as well. A new pedestrian overpass is needed. Ascot racecourse do no permit access to the second platform so anyone exiting an outbound service must use the pedestrian overpass to exit the station via platform 1.

Ascot-Doomben:
Track realignment, new bridges (age and for the second track), embankment stabilisation. IIRC the track would criss cross to maintain its alignment for dual track. Nudgee road level crossing road reconfiguration works.

Doomben:
Modifications to the signalling. The station doesn't meet DAA so would need to be raised.

For arguments sake Eagle Junction:
Depending on how you integrate you'll have property resumptions from the old Bonney Ave crossing to as far back as the street that links onto Railway Parade (can't remember it off the top of my head). Replacement of the Morrison Road overpass. Signalling upgrades. Station upgrades to enable access to all platforms and access from all ends.

So they have the corridor but its still going to cost a lot. A lot of money that can be better spent elsewhere for a better benefit. If anything I'd be pushing for  dual track and merge back to single track before the Sandgate Road overpass so the subs can be cleared quicker.

QuoteIt is quite pointless to run a railway that close to the CBD on 1/2 hourly frequencies, even if it is low cost do do so. By the time the train turns up, a car would be in the CBD and parked already.

Most people there don't catch public transport. A lot of cashed up tradies and business people that already have parking spots if they work in the city live there. It also why crime (car theft) is quite high in these areas. Its also quite a dog leg to get to the city. If you lived at Ascot you go two suburbs north on the train before you start to travel south to get to the city.

https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/96429

Ready, set, go for accelerated Northshore riverfront transformation
28th October 2022

Deputy Premier, Minister for State Development, Infrastructure, Local Government and Planning and Minister Assisting the Premier on Olympics Infrastructure
The Honourable Dr Steven Miles

Plans to transform Northshore Hamilton into a world-class riverfront precinct, which will be the future home of the Brisbane Athlete Village for the Brisbane 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games, have been accelerated.

Deputy Premier and Planning Minister Steven Miles has approved a development scheme amendment for the Northshore Hamilton Priority Development Area, adjoining the Brisbane River and suburb of Hamilton.

The amendments follow public consultation and ensure development at Northshore Hamilton continues to meet community expectations and factors in the Brisbane Athlete Village.

"An additional 1.2 kilometres of this prime waterfront location will be transformed into a vibrant, mixed-use precinct for the community," Mr Miles said.

"It will be one of the biggest contributions of Brisbane riverfront parkland since South Bank was established.

"A new commercial heart will be located along Macarthur Avenue to take advantage of increased foot traffic and maximise the invaluable new riverside parkland.

"This development will cement Northshore as a world-class lifestyle, recreation and events destination.

"These changes also provide for the future planning of the Athlete Village for the Brisbane 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games – and the long-term economic and community benefits to follow.

"This city-shaping project presents an incredible opportunity to showcase Brisbane's iconic waterfront to the world and deliver a long-lasting legacy for the state."

Covering 304 hectares, Northshore Hamilton is Queensland's largest waterfront urban renewal precinct. It will support a mix of retail, residential, entertainment, cultural and commercial uses.

Developing the Athlete Village within this area means Northshore will host 10,000-plus athletes and team officials for the Olympic Games and more than 5000 for the Paralympic Games.

"The development scheme will facilitate investment in Queensland's future, delivering new roads, road upgrades and a new public realm to be enjoyed during Brisbane 2032 and beyond," Mr Miles said.

The Deputy Premier said Northshore Hamilton would also help meeting housing demand.

"It's estimated Northshore Hamilton will have over 14,000 dwellings and be home to over 24,000 residents, to help meet south-east Queensland's fast-growing population" Mr Miles said.

"Following the Games, the Athlete Village will convert to housing and commercial property, providing more than 1750 apartments, along with commercial and retail space."

Priority Development Areas (PDAs) are parcels of land within Queensland identified for development to deliver significant benefits to the community.

The development scheme is the regulatory document which assists with planning, carrying out, promoting, coordinating and controlling land development within the PDA.

The amendment to the development scheme takes effect today (Friday 28 October 2022) following the online publishing.

ENDS

     it must take a truly special needs skillset, to be a political "leader" in Quuueeeensland....who develops stuff like this, in almost 2023 and doesn't put heavy rail at the heart of it...... 

It should at the very least have buses with Class B ROW. Bus lanes on KSD, Breakfast Creek Rd, and Ann/Wickham Sts through the Valley would be a good start. Would help the proposed Gold CityGlider as well as other northeastern routes.

Here's a little rough map I did up that overlays a potential Hamilton rail extension over the top of the newly published Hamilton master plan image that the government posted.



This alignment roughly follows the original alignment in the old Hamilton PDA master plan (before it was amended earlier this year to remove the rail alignment). In the new plan you can see there is still a fairly wide median in Theodore Street, probably wide enough to accommodate an elevated rail viaduct ala the Airport line.

I'm still under the impression it would be fairly easy to do. The most expensive thing would be the rebuild of Doomben station to eliminate the level crossing and provide an easier approach to the flyover over KSD.
Cutting across the TAFE carpark is easy due to it already being state government land.
I'm not 100% on the location of the Hamilton station, you could probably put it further west, over Curtin Avenue/the sports fields if you wanted.

Mind you, this is all just foam as it seems that this whole program is completely off the card for the state government at the moment

The Gold Glider should provide a sufficient service to the area as long as the extend it to Skygate. It will be much faster than going via Eagle Junction to the City and the Gabba.

Additionally,  sinking funds into train infrastructure and operation costs will take funds away from running a 24/7 bus to Skygate via Hamilton Northshore.

Eventually, LRT or Metro (underground) can be an option for the area.

In Qld --> Missing the Meanjin Line: The gaps in Northshore Hamilton's grand vision

Quote....

The yet-to-be-told story in the development of Northshore Hamilton is public transport.

The amended development scheme dwells on its active transport attractions – an impressive network of paths, streets cycle lanes and bikeways – and insists public transport is "highly accessible"

But the nearest rail station is Ascot – a 25 minute walk from Portside Wharf – and unless there is a secret plan to pimp up Brisbane's ferry fleet with a couple of those V12-driven longtail monsters that ply the klongs in Bangkok, the river journey between Hamilton and the city will remain beautiful but slow.

That leaves three words guaranteed to prompt groans of agony from Brisbane commuters – Kingsford Smith Drive.

A business case developed by the council to introduced a CityGlider bus service between Woolloongabba and Northshore Hamilton is sitting with the state government.

Current plans for the council's $1 billion Brisbane Metro suggest the new transit service will go nowhere near Hamilton and an ambitious concept floated by the Bligh government for a Brisbane "subway" running from Toowong to the airport via Northshore Hamilton – dubbed the Meanjin Line by former transport minister Paul Lucas – sank without a trace.  ...

This is yet another example of the mediocre transport planning that goes on in SEQ.

Other states are on task.  Queeensland, roads first everything else last. 
Time to move PT out of TMR!

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1586882559170187264

Another sign that Metro is just not Fit for Purpose.

Quote from: Jonno on October 31, 2022, 13:01:36 PMAnother sign that Metro is just not Fit for Purpose.

Many politicians want Metro to be something it is not. That's the main problem with it. It's not one size fix all solution. It serves its purpose well, reducing busses traveling along the busway, but it is not a solution for high volume traffic, such as the traffic that this new development will create. This is clear since the busway will still need to carry many routes.

The problem with the current plans at Hamilton Northshore is that there simply is no thought put into the public transport connections in and out of the development. At the very least it should connect to the Doomben line to provide easy connection to North Brisbane (I know it will be extremely slow for commuters, but it would still serve an important purpose for people travelling North and the line is literally right there). The city is no longer 100% CBD centric, so these kinds of connections are still extremely important for both residents and visitors of the new development. There also really ought to be at least Class B ROW along Kingsford Smith Drive, otherwise the Gold City Glider and any other bus services going toward the city will be just as slow as driving.

Ideally a direct rail connection the city should be built which travels through Bulimba, Tenerife/Newfarm & West End, but that's just foam for the time being. Should still have provisions put in to allow for an underground station to be built in the future though!

Well, perhaps they can just run a bus there. Can be Brisbane Metro, Gold CityGlider, simplified Route 305 etc. Take your pick.

If they are worried about using battery buses in mixed traffic (unlikely), put up a wire and use a trolley bus. Brisbane used to have them https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=596656760526736

QuoteMetroBus Line 5: one of the busiest routes in Europe

Probably the most well-known HOCHBAHN route is the MetroBus Line 5 that runs between Burgwedel and the Main Station. With around 60,000 passengers a day, it is not only one of the most frequently used bus routes in Hamburg but in the whole of Europe.

Source: https://www.hochbahn.de/en/transport/fahrzeuge-und-technik/buses

This single bus line - using bi arctics on a mix of streets and Priority B ROW, carries 40% of what the SE Busway does.

  



(Longer video in German, but you can turn captions on and have them auto-translated into English)

QuoteIf they are worried about using battery buses in mixed traffic (unlikely), put up a wire and use a trolley bus. Brisbane used to have them

Whats wrong with using a battery bus in mixed traffic?

That was just raised as a potential issue in the Bus network briefing, basically saying that it wouldn't be smart running Metros to Chermside and Carindale etc. in the current state of the road network with no bus priority.

Quote from: verbatim9 on October 30, 2022, 11:23:43 AMThe Gold Glider should provide a sufficient service to the area as long as the extend it to Skygate. It will be much faster than going via Eagle Junction to the City and the Gabba.

Additionally,  sinking funds into train infrastructure and operation costs will take funds away running a 24/7 bus to Skygate via Hamilton Northshore.

Eventually, LRT or Metro (underground) can be an option for the area.

Now, if only we could get rid of this absurd obsession with operating high frequency 24/7 buses to Skygate. There simply isn't the demand to warrant it. Have you ever been to Skygate at 4am on a weekday morning? There'd be lucky to be half a dozen people there.

It absolutely does not need Glider levels of service, and realistically if we were going to start talking about 24/7 services, I'd be running them on the 412 before Skygate.

Quote from: Cazza on October 31, 2022, 15:39:16 PMThat was just raised as a potential issue in the Bus network briefing, basically saying that it wouldn't be smart running Metros to Chermside and Carindale etc. in the current state of the road network with no bus priority.

Might be getting muddled here.

There will be electric buses running across the network, but not all of them will be metro and not all of them will be bi artics.

Quote from: achiruel on October 31, 2022, 16:18:16 PM

Quote from: verbatim9 on October 30, 2022, 11:23:43 AMThe Gold Glider should provide a sufficient service to the area as long as the extend it to Skygate. It will be much faster than going via Eagle Junction to the City and the Gabba.

Additionally,  sinking funds into train infrastructure and operation costs will take funds away running a 24/7 bus to Skygate via Hamilton Northshore.

Eventually, LRT or Metro (underground) can be an option for the area.

Now, if only we could get rid of this absurd obsession with operating high frequency 24/7 buses to Skygate. There simply isn't the demand to warrant it. Have you ever been to Skygate at 4am on a weekday morning? There'd be lucky to be half a dozen people there.
It absolutely does not
 need Glider levels of service, and realistically if we were going to start talking about 24/7 services, I'd be running them on the 412 before Skygate.

Nonsense. What's next? The majority of shops at DFO will open at 10am.....        Meanwile the 314 thrives with its 2 daily services

Doomben Line LRT Conversion Concept (Part 1)

I've been thinking of how a few different purposes could come together in one concept.

The Problem

Commuter rail as the preferred mode has not been comprehensively established. We also need to consider the other modes that we have available in the toolbox.

In particular, supplying rail to the Hamilton Doomben area has a high 'opportunity cost'. A 1000-pax train running on the Doomben line is a 1000-pax train not running elsewhere on the network (e.g to Caboolture, Shorncliffe, Airport, Redcliffe etc). Increasing train services on the Doomben line, particularly at peak times means that high-value scarce train paths are consumed in the network core. This is not ideal.

There is also a penetration issue. For $50-100 million you might get 1 station at Northshore. That's a big walk or a bus transfer required. In contrast, LRT or BRT could have multiple stops, affording greater accessibility within the precinct.

In other words, commuter rail may not be the highest and best use all things considered.

The Traffic Problem, From First Principles

We are aware of the Brisbane Metro BRT bus mode, and this will likely be an appropriate interim choice. If every resident makes 3.3 trips on average and there are 24,000 of them in that area. The total transport demand will be ~ 24,000 residents x 3.3 trips/day = 79,200 trips per day.

We can construct an unsophisticated estimation of the car peak one-way by imagining that peak car demand is just a slice of the total daily traffic trip pie. A reasonable proportion might be 10-20% of all day traffic, and then adjusting that down a bit for 1.2 pax occupancy/car.

This gives peak car demand for the road at PT=0% level of 7920 pphd to 15,840 pphd; or 6600 to 13,200 cars/direction/hour during peak. We know from elsewhere that if cars have a frequency of 2 seconds, then the maximum the car lane can support is 1,800 vehicles/hour.

This gives 6600/1800 and 15,850/1800 => 3.6 lanes to 7.3 car lanes required in one direction.

Conclusion - Given that lanes required > lanes available, the road will be totally saturated with traffic during peak hour once all 24,000 residents settle in.

PT Opportunity Estimation

Setting PT=25%, this implies 79,200 trips x 0.25 = 19,800 trips/day. Scaling this up (x 5 days/week x 52 weeks) give us 5,148,000 trips per year. This would be on par with CityGliders, the best performing BUZ routes etc. Even if it were half this amount, it would still represent excellent PT patronage performance (we have not considered demand from elsewhere on the route such as Ascot, the Valley, race days etc).

Taking the same approach to estimate peak (10-20%), we get 1,980 - 3,960 pphd in peak. We can round this up to 2000 - 4000 pphd if you like.

What Frequency?
If BRT = 150 pax and LRT = 250 pax, then the frequencies will be:

BRT: 13.33 buses/hour to 26.66 buses/hour. This is a bus every 4.5 minutes to 2.25 minutes.
LRT: 8 trams/hour to 16 trams/hour. This is a tram every 7.5 to 3.75 minutes, which can be scaled by scaling the vehicle.

In Part 2, I'll set out a concept for how LRT could service the demand. I am at pains to point out that a BRT option could go in initially followed by the possibility of a staged LRT extension.

Notes

Quote"It's estimated Northshore Hamilton will have over 14,000 dwellings and be home to over 24,000 residents, to help meet south-east Queensland's fast-growing population" Mr Miles said. https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/96429

Part 2: Northshore Three-Phase Light Rail Concept

Description
LRT would begin at the top of the Queen Street Mall, and proceed on the surface along Wickham Street. Ann Street would be considered for conversion to two-way traffic. Wickham Street is preferred because it is the route that gives the closest interchange with Fortitude Valley station. Parallel physically separated surface cycling lanes should also be considered. Wickham Street also seems to have the highest redevelopment potential IMHO. This will be important if land value uplift is to be considered as a funding source for the project.

Stage 1
Stage 1 would terminate at Teneriffe, forming a branch and replacing the Blue CityGlider.

Stage 2
When funding becomes available, the line can be extended along Breakfast Creek Road. There are a whole heap of car sales yards along this route which could also be redeveloped (although flood mitigation will need to be considered). The junction with the Inner City Bypass/KSD will be a little tricky, but that will be a challenge for the engineers to work that one out.

Stage 2 would enter Northshore Hamilton, and feature multiple stops along MacArthur Avenue. This will create that TOD environment that Jonno often describes - dense and walkable. In this particular case the Perth bus + feeder model is not the appropriate model to apply; the European TOD model is the one to go with here IMHO. Most pax would access using walk-up and eScooters/bikes.

Stage 3
Some real innovation and out-of-the-box thinking is required to crack this one. The problem with the railway is that it is not aligned to the desired direction of passenger movement. The trains are going one way when they need to go the other way so I thought... just reverse it.

LRT would be returned to the surface of Racecourse Road. This would likely be Priority B or Priority C with the tram running with mixed traffic. Not perfect, but it is a short section and that is made up for by the fast sections everywhere else. You could also consider dropping the speed limit on that road to discourage traffic from using that route.

The LRT would then enter the existing Doomben line alignment, which would be repurposed for LRT. You could potentially keep the heritage signalling as well. The service would terminate at Eagle Junction at a separate interchange beside the station, possibly where the south P&R car park is today.

Repurposing the line should keep costs down, and you get your duplication as well.

Other Comments

Some thought needs to go into what impacts on freight this will have. The possibility of sharing the track to be used by freight trains during non-LRT operation should be investigated (wheel profiles, signalling etc). In any case, this consideration will not impact Stages 1 or 2 from being constructed.

The line length from Eagle Junction is about 10 km, so at ~ 30 km/hr we could expect the trip to take about 20-30 minutes.

Rail to Northshore Hamilton was very much possible once.  Since the ROW is now gone, nothing is going to happen, light or heavy.

Concentrate on a bus route.  That is all that will be in place.

Agree BRT and eventually LRT.  Metro a long term prospect

[/url]Connecting SEQ 2031 - T, M, L & B - Full Colour

Thanks Jonno. Have you considered posting excerpts of your map so members can see the relevant section?

I can sort of see that the concept is like your L1 & L3 LRT line. Although I can also see you seem to have LRT up Sandgate Road going to Sandgate/Redcliffe (L4).

Happy to support your L1 and L3 concepts as we both have that in common. 

 

Excerpt (Jonno's Map)

Brisbanetimes --> More land for housing to be released at Hamilton Northshore

QuoteThe Queensland government will free up almost 50,000 square metres of near-riverside land at Hamilton for new homes, about 13 per cent of which would be for social and affordable housing.

The land release, identified through an audit of Queensland government-owned land, would increase Northshore dwellings by about 50 per cent, with 1500 new homes added to the 3000 that had already been built. ...

 

Grain Train on the Doomben Line

Found some public Australian Competition and Consumer Commmission (ACCC) documents that mention the Pinkenba facility. If the Doomben line is closed, a question arises about whether freight uses it frequently or is essential, and whether that would justify keeping it open.

There appears to be another terminal across the river, also operated by GrainCorp (at least in 2015, things may have changed). Could that facility be expanded or used instead?



Sources

Submission: Fisherman Islands (Brisbane) exemption from Port terminal access (Bulk Wheat) regulation. June 2015.

https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/15-06-01%20ACCC%20Submission%20-%20Brisbane_for%20publication_2_0.pdf

If anything, it would probably be preferable for most parties if grain went to the Port of Brisbane instead of the old Pinkenba silos. Better connections to ship loading (facilities depending) and ability to use the dedicated line to the port IF capacity exists (but still sharing Ipswich line tracks up to the Tennyson line) would seem to make it a logical choice. A quick google search suggests Grain Corp may be active at both facilities presently. The worst outcome of course would be something that leads to grain needing to be transported by truck where at present it can be transported by rail... but at face value consolidation to the Port of Brisbane would make logical sense if the right opportunity for the right mass transit solution presented itself, Port rail access and loading facilities were suitable and the right incentives were given to Grain Corp to make the move.

GrainCorp use both facilities but prefer fisherman's island due to shipping restrictions and suburban restrictions (timings, paths, level crossing downtime and safeworking Doomben-pinkenba as all signalling is controlled via Doomben station staff (need certified crew there) and not Mayne control). Doomben will handle overflow if needed with trials happening in different forms every now and then.

When their workload bulks up that's when we will see Doomben used more when it's use can be justified.

Trams would be best served to replace the Blue Glider. The Doomben line from Eagle Junction could also be converted to LRT. This could serve the growing area of Hamilton as well as provide a link to the cruise terminal.

Quote from: verbatim9 on February 09, 2024, 19:55:01 PMTrams would be best served to replace the Blue Glider. The Doomben line from Eagle Junction could also be converted to LRT. This could serve the growing area of Hamilton as well as provide a link to the cruise terminal.

Doomben will not be converted any time soon Watco is wanting to start regular grain services out to pinkenba plus the temp freight terminal for CRR closures

Quote from: Bretto1082Doomben will not be converted any time soon Watco is wanting to start regular grain services out to pinkenba plus the temp freight terminal for CRR closures

Quote from: Verbatim9Trams would be best served to replace the Blue Glider. The Doomben line from Eagle Junction could also be converted to LRT. This could serve the growing area of Hamilton as well as provide a link to the cruise terminal.

At some point, a decision needs to be made about what is taking priority on the Doomben Line. At the moment it's not exactly doing either the freight or the passenger role well.

If anything, the scope of Green Team's study needs to be extended to look at that as well, or a separate study done.

If Freight > People then the line will just continue to have low or no services* and buses in the area get upgraded instead.

If Freight < People then freight moves to the Port of Brisbane and the line gets converted to say BRT or LRT and services run every 5 mins in peak and 10 min in the off-peak.

Freight has alternative options. This isn't necessarily the case with passengers - there will always be residents living around that line.

* Doomben line has no services on Sunday.

Urgh. Here we go again. No need for a study. You've been moaning about that for ages. And we all know how bad V9 wants a train, hf bus, maglev or a A380 route to the cruise terminal. They can run their own charter bus route. Translink doesn't need to provide them 24/7 services when a boat is there for only a short period of time. The racq comment was total sh%t and everyone here knows it. Freight has been in the pipeline for ages and as I have said many many times before watco/graincorp have upgraded facilities to do so. As has QR. Ascot had the loop removed due to daa issues and the racecourse side not providing access. Sunday lack of services is a translink issue. Want services then pay for them. Same can be said for all lines having different weekend timetables due to lack of patronage and translink not willing to fund these extra services. Want increased capacity then duplicate the line. Want better buses then review the network.

Freight does have alternative and that is trucks. Watco have been trying to get operations up and going due to issues with the Cleveland line. QR, state and other lobby groups want pinkenba freight operational to reduce trucks on the Warrego. GrainCorp/providers have said in the past they will cut rail services if costs increase or they have to add another interchange point which is reflected in rail access costs for the western division. TMR want rail access as it means less congestion and less heavy vehicle movements across seq road networks.

The railway line isn't going to be converted to anything else so the sooner people drop that stupid thought the better.

Yes, the Doomben line and extensions are here to stay. 

Parramatta Light Rail Stage 1
Incorporated conversion of the Carlingford Line to LRT. Line was pretty quiet and single track, similar to Doomben.

Quote from: JonnoAgree BRT and eventually LRT.

Agree with Jonno. Could start as Cityglider/Brisbane Metro and then extend in stages. When patronage becomes very high, increment LRT over the route.

Freight can move to Port of Brisbane.

It will be good once they close and covert the Doomben line to BRT or LRT.

Hopefully, we will get some action on the Gold Glider later this year too. Skygate would be the ideal terminus for that route rather than at Hamilton Northshore.

Because the rapid transit corridor concept that is presented a little earlier in this thread is staged, you could extend BRT/LRT well into Hamilton Northshore and defer the Doomben Line conversion decision until you were more certain/comfortable with the BRT/LRT line patronage.

Stick to the foamy threads please. Doomben line is not closing or has any chance of closing. It's as plausible as a Geebung maglev.

Quote from: HTGStick to the foamy threads please. Doomben line is not closing or has any chance of closing. It's as plausible as a Geebung maglev.

Well, there are five examples of LRT conversion from heavy rail in Australia to LRT:

- Carlingford Railway Line (rail closed 2020, now Parramatta LRT)
- St Kilda Line (rail closed 1987, now Tram 96)
- Port Melbourne Line (rail closed 1987, now Tram 109)
- Goods Line Sydney (converted to LRT 1997, now L1 Dulwich Hill).
- Newcastle Railway Line (sections closed 2014, now Newcastle LRT)

Doomben line shares a lot of characteristics with the above. If you use BRT as the starting point only about ~ 3 km needs conversion (Racecourse Rd to EJ station). The remainder you can defer until ready for LRT.

Won't happen immediately, and might have to start off as bus, but it's not unreasonable, and certainly not in the same class as Geebung Maglev.

Only disputed by those that want to argue. It's foam. Maglev foam. End of story. QR has no intentions of conversion (the racq bloke was talking sh%t - everyone knows it) and freight options with providers are in the pipeline as they move away from fishermans island. You can't even get a frequent bus running around the Doomben line suburbs and yet here we discussing brt conversions.

If people are so desperate for a brt conversion (let's be honest - no one is talking about a possible conversion besides you and  v9) no one has gone into detail about how to connect with the railway line. How do you get it off the railway grade and up to the train station? What and where do vehicles use to turn around? What frequency are you looking at running the brt? V9 wants an lrt so explain how that works? Does the area support a brt? The area consists of 20/30/60 minute or worse services so how is brt/lrt an ideal solution? Where are these brt buses going to come from? Given there isn't much built up around the railway corridor is there even the demand for a brt? Running buses - so you mean a busway?

You love to go on and on about cost return benefits then explain how the conversion will work. Convince us that it's worth it. Convince us that Hendra needs to be part of a 3km brt. Its easy to say well they did this and that but Clayfield isn't Port Melbourne. Show us direct link comparisons. Don't worry as you don't have to because it's foam. It's not going to happen.

Quote... Well, there are five examples of LRT conversion from heavy rail in Australia to LRT:

- Carlingford Railway Line (rail closed 2020, now Parramatta LRT)
- St Kilda Line (rail closed 1987, now Tram 96)
- Port Melbourne Line (rail closed 1987, now Tram 109)
- Goods Line Sydney (converted to LRT 1997, now L1 Dulwich Hill).
- Newcastle Railway Line (sections closed 2014, now Newcastle LRT)
 ...

All of these are extensions to existing LR networks, with the exception of Newcastle which is a special case.

To simply suggest Doomben can be converted in isolation to LR is nonsense.  The cost of setting up depots, trams, etc. would be prohibitive for such a short isolated line with limited passenger numbers.

As HTG as pointed out there is also a likelihood of more freight on the line as well.  Rail access to POB from the southside is a bit constrained, and will remain so because of the half baked CRR tunnel not going through to Yeerongpilly as originally planed.

In my view, I would like to see 7 day a week Citytrain services on the Doomben line sooner than later.

There's so much to do around SEQ transit wise that spending money (and removing freight access which demand for will only grow in future) on a conversion is not a wise use of our taxes!!

All of the conversions noted above were passenger only lines except for what is now L1 in Sydney, and that was facilitated by it becoming redundant due to closure or relocation of the facilities it served.  Doomben is not going to be converted to anything while there are freight uses for it outbound from the passenger terminus.