RAIL - Back On Track Forum

This is fantastic, but they need to shorten the timelines to have this fully complete by the time Eagle Street Pier is fully open in 2027.

This is a basic project on the grand scheme of what is happening in the city, let's not delay.

Quote from: SurfRail on September 26, 2022, 17:46:25 PMI'm struggling to think of anything they initiated in terms of hard infrastructure that actually happened.  Was there anything?

All I can think of off-hand is bus network reviews (for the non BCC regions), off-peak weekday train service frequencies improved, and continuation / ribbon cutting for things already underway from the Bligh government or earlier (Northern Busway, GCLR1, Springfield etc).

Electrification under Joh?

I'm trying to think but Robina station opened in 1998. Was this done under Borbridge? (Elected 1996-98) or Goss (1989-95) Inclined to say the latter because it appears the GC line opened in stages.

Cleveland re-extension opened in 87 so that would have been Nationals.

^ There was plenty of stuff that far back (electrification, Merivale Bridge etc).  Gold Coast line originally opened to Helensvale, then Nerang, then Robina (progressively each year), then big gap to Varsity in 2009.

I was only referring to 2012-2015 in particular.  It isn't fair to only talk about ribbon cutting things they started given they were only in for a bit under 3 years, but I can't think of anything that government initiated which survived their being kicked out.  It was all just stupid stuff that got thrown in the bin pretty quickly, like BaT.  Happy to be corrected.

Quote from: ozbob on September 28, 2022, 08:56:33 AMBrisbanetimes --> Vision to revamp Mary Street in time for Albert St train station

BCC > https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/planning-and-building/planning-guidelines-and-tools/neighbourhood-planning-and-urban-renewal/city-centre-master-plan-2014

This lack separated bike lanes.  Sharing bike and vehicle lanes (with buses) is poor practice.

I think the buses should run on Adelaide, Elizabeth and Margaret only. The concept of spreading bus routes on all roads in the CBD lacks common sense thinking. I also think the latter 2 should be returned to 2 way streets as well.

There should also be no parking and now no bus stops as well.  The vehicle lanes can be reduced to 3.0m which slows the cars and trucks down.

Quote from: Jonno on September 28, 2022, 16:35:27 PMI think the buses should run on Adelaide, Elizabeth and Margaret only. The concept of spreading bus routes on all roads in the CBD lacks common sense thinking. I also think the latter 2 should be returned to 2 way streets as well.

There should also be no parking and now no bus stops as well.  The vehicle lanes can be reduced to 3.0m which slows the cars and trucks down.

There's literally not enough room for the bus services required if we took that approach. 

The current arrangements are FAR from perfect, but even with more passengers using rail to get to the CBD we need to be accommodating more people on buses from other parts of town as the system grows.  Buses have to pick up, drop off and lay over somewhere.  Loading zones, taxi ranks and the like also have to be accommodated.

CBD street directionality is fairly heavily constrained by the Riverside Expressway. Which isn't going anywhere. Every Rocket over the Captain Cook Bridge is going to be coming off the REx, up Elizabeth St or Margaret St, then either down Ann St or Alice St back out of the city.

(And we know that Rockets are worth it, as a diversion of CBD peak loads away from South Bank.)

The Elizabeth/Ann loop is particularly nice because it connects well with QSBS/KGS/Adelaide St and even with Central. But with CRR up and running, Margaret St buses will connect there and become more useful, and Alice St has QUT.

Say, wasn't the Gold Glider meant to be going down the southern CBD?

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1575238658000814080

I guess 10+10 min savings is 20 mins a day?

  they are struggling .... 

There will be nothing like that on the network, the only really time savings are if you presently get off at Central and walk to Albert St, QUT Gardens Point etc.  Even with the Logan to Gold faster rail improvements any gain which is not great through Trinder Park will be offset by the extra three stations south of Beenleigh.

I am not sure they even have enough trains to deliver any increase in frequency when the tunnel opens.  Going to bit of an anti-climax in some senses.

Still the platform screen doors will be nice in the new stations, and hopefully the signalling faults will be less of an issue with the ETCS L2 and ATO.

It's all there in the CRR documents that anyone can get. walking time from south Brisbane to Albert street for an old pensioner. Surprised they didn't go for the 35 minute time savings based on a blind pensioner travelling from south Brisbane. Maybe they felt that was a bit too unbelievable for the media release??

the peak hour 351/352 are Premium compared to what the 310 gets

https://twitter.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1575596653754855424

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1576575985058983936

Couriermail --> Opinion: Cross River Rail budget blowout could cost Labor power $

QuoteRoll up, roll up and grab your ticket for the magical carpet ride we know as the Cross River Rail project.

It's a wondrous and fantastic journey with all the bells and whistles you'd expect, snaking its way underneath the Brisbane River to make the state's capital one of the most modern, progressive cities in the world.

It's just over 10km of world-leading engineering and innovation between Dutton Park and Bowen Hills, with a 5.9km tunnel under the Brisbane River and CBD, connecting to the northern and southern rail networks.

It also includes four new underground stations at Boggo Road, Woolloongabba, Albert St and Roma St, two upgraded stations at Dutton Park and the Exhibition Station, refurbishment of the southern stations from Fairfield to Salisbury, and development of three new Gold Coast stations.

It's a modern-day transportation spectacular and even though the projected cost was $5.4bn, most people agree it's money well spent.

Or is it? Houston, we have a big problem and the cost overrun for CRR is horrendous.

In 2017, Cabinet was sold a pup.

Documents which have landed in my inbox suggest the final project cost will be closer to $11bn – that's double what Cabinet was told. ...

^

" ... A source familiar with the CRR costings says Transport Minister Mark Bailey is "clueless'' and the project has blown out off the back of scope complexity challenges and unions demanding above award wages. ... "

Sad thing about CRR is not what they are building, it is what they are NOT building ...

Another half baked Queensland project sadly ...

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1576646105843912705

You make your bed     

Quote from: ozbob on October 03, 2022, 00:14:46 AMhttps://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1576575985058983936

Couriermail --> Opinion: Cross River Rail budget blowout could cost Labor power $

QuoteRoll up, roll up and grab your ticket for the magical carpet ride we know as the Cross River Rail project.

It's a wondrous and fantastic journey with all the bells and whistles you'd expect, snaking its way underneath the Brisbane River to make the state's capital one of the most modern, progressive cities in the world.

It's just over 10km of world-leading engineering and innovation between Dutton Park and Bowen Hills, with a 5.9km tunnel under the Brisbane River and CBD, connecting to the northern and southern rail networks.

It also includes four new underground stations at Boggo Road, Woolloongabba, Albert St and Roma St, two upgraded stations at Dutton Park and the Exhibition Station, refurbishment of the southern stations from Fairfield to Salisbury, and development of three new Gold Coast stations.

It's a modern-day transportation spectacular and even though the projected cost was $5.4bn, most people agree it's money well spent.

Or is it? Houston, we have a big problem and the cost overrun for CRR is horrendous.

In 2017, Cabinet was sold a pup.

Documents which have landed in my inbox suggest the final project cost will be closer to $11bn – that's double what Cabinet was told. ...

^

" ... A source familiar with the CRR costings says Transport Minister Mark Bailey is "clueless'' and the project has blown out off the back of scope complexity challenges and unions demanding above award wages. ... "

We need to get back to building freeways and tunnels because we have never had a cost blow out in those and they are soooooo good at creating congestion for little to no economic benefit!! We need more!!

The only document available publicly is the 2017 redacted business case.

( https://cabinet.qld.gov.au/documents/2017/Aug/CRRBusCase/Attachments/BusinessCase.pdf ).

From that:

Quote12.2.2 Capital Works
The financial analysis estimated a risk-adjusted capital cost of $5.4 billion (P90 nominal) for the CRR Project.
Capital costs include:
. surface works
. signals, rail systems and power
. underground station works
. tunnelling
. tunnel track
. project land costs

p. 208

5.2 Scope of the Reference Project
The key components of the Reference Project are as follows:
. 10.2km link including 5.9km of twin running tunnels from Dutton Park in the south to Bowen Hills in the
north
. underground stations at Boggo Road, Woolloongabba, Albert Street and Roma Street
. northern surface works consisting of a new track from the portal around the Exhibition Loop and through
Mayne Yard to the Breakfast Creek bridges
. upgrade of Dutton Park and Exhibition stations
. provision for additional stabling at Mayne Yard (North) and ETCS L2 through the tunnel and northern
surface connection.

p.81

In addition to the scope of works listed above, the CRR Project will also require some future associated
investment to realise the full project benefits by 2036. This includes some station and signalling works at
Northgate and Wooloowin.
While not required for day one of operations the future acquisition of additional rollingstock will also be
required to support the enhanced level of service facilitated by the CRR Project.
The CRR Project study corridor is located in the Brisbane LGA within SEQ. It is approximately 19km long,
extending from Salisbury in the south, via Woolloongabba and Brisbane's CBD to Wooloowin in the north.
The study corridor in the south generally follows the existing rail corridor from Salisbury and includes the
existing train stations of Salisbury, Rocklea, Moorooka, Yeerongpilly, Yeronga, Fairfield and Dutton Park.
Between Rocklea and Dutton Park, the study corridor widens towards the west to include Fairfield Road. The
northern part of the study corridor generally follows the existing rail corridor from Boggo Road Urban
Village, through the Woolloongabba priority development area (PDA), widening to include Brisbane's CBD
and Spring Hill. The corridor then narrows to the existing Exhibition station at Bowen Hills continuing along
the existing rail corridor past Mayne Yard and Bowen Hills, Albion and Wooloowin stations.
The Reference Project alignment includes a southern portal at Dutton Park, the southern CBD station located
at Albert Street, the inclusion of Exhibition station and a connection to the North Coast line, south of Albion
station.
The key enabling works for the proposed Reference Project include the following:
. Station upgrades will be undertaken between Salisbury and Fairfield (inclusive), with a third platform
added to all stations. Where required, new or upgraded Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (DDA)
compliant pedestrian bridges will be provided for each station.
. ETCS L2 signalling will be installed on the down suburban line from Dutton Park to Salisbury. This will
accommodate the portal arrangements of the tunnel and maintain the operational integrity of the
network.

p.82

There are additional projects happening to support CRR and I think this is where a lot of cost overun confusion occurs.

The Government needs to come clean and list all the project components as to what is in the original $5.4B and what is additional.

It is their own stupid fault.

If Governments were transparent and honest, it would save them a lot of grief in the end.

I still can't get my head around how upgrading stations as far down as Rocklea and Salisbury, as well as building three new stations on the Gold Coast falls under the CRR project. Yet, just trying to get a seamless and incorporated interchange at Boggo Road (a newly constructed CRR station being one of the Southsides busiest interchanges) is somehow "out of scope".

Heck, they can't even get the 2 stations to have the same name after all these years!

The Gold Coast stations are included because it was impractical to construct these (or extend the GC line) without an increase in peak hour line capacity.

Extending the GC line or adding new stations without CRR would simply have created full trains and passengers unable to board during peak hour.

Quote" ... A source familiar with the CRR costings says Transport Minister Mark Bailey is "clueless'' and the project has blown out off the back of scope complexity challenges and unions demanding above award wages. ... "

Yawn, this is just a classic Courier-Mail beatup. Who was "the source"? 

The Leader of the Opposition perhaps?

"Above the Award" - many businesses pay above the award otherwise they would not have staff.

The award is a minimum, not a maximum, and often the market rate is above this. That is normal practice.

The project is in construction and fully committed now. There is no going back.

Quote from: Cazza on October 03, 2022, 10:17:08 AMI still can't get my head around how upgrading stations as far down as Rocklea and Salisbury, as well as building three new stations on the Gold Coast falls under the CRR project. Yet, just trying to get a seamless and incorporated interchange at Boggo Road (a newly constructed CRR station being one of the Southsides busiest interchanges) is somehow "out of scope".

Heck, they can't even get the 2 stations to have the same name after all these years!

The Gold Coast stations are not in the original scope by the looks of things so that is an additional cost.

Extension of ETCS L2 through to Varsity Lakes likewise an additional cost.

Fit out of NGRs for ETCS ?

Stabling at Clapham an additional cost?

Plus I am certain there would have been some construction costs creep due to material cost increases, labour shortages etc.  Also costs due to the pandemic, flood delays etc.

The Government should put out a clarifying statement as to what the real costs are.

It is all smoke and mirrors.

If the Opposition has ' documents ' then they should publish them.

From the Couriermail article https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/peter-gleeson/opinion-cross-river-rail-budget-blowout-could-cost-labor-power/news-story/8b0ffa1b6241a26b8b059e1a97809cff

" ... In Queensland budget papers, dated August 17, the total estimated CRR project cost at June, 2020, was $7.654m, while the total estimated cost at June, 2022, was $9.471m. ... "

None of this cost escalation stuff is new.

Last few minutes of this interview I did ..  from about the 15 minute mark.

> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcdrive_rd_2aug22.mp3

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1554476559654076416

- Describing Hon Mark Bailey as clueless is highly inaccurate, he's way more "clueless" than merely "clueless"....he takes out of his depth to an entirely new level! 

- CRR is NOT a great project, it is a necessary project, because from day one, no-one has ever really taken Brisbane's Rail System seriously [except for the era of electrification] and we have ended-up therefore, with a poorly designed Network in many key respects, a Network that sooner or later, required more capacity at it's literal "heart". CRR gets that necessary job done.

- Brisbane/Toowoomba, Main Northern Line Improvements, Brisbane/Coolangatta/Northern NSW, Brisbane Sunshine Coast, Brisbane/Beaudesert, extensions to the Springfield line, a NEW Eastern Suburbs Line etc etc....these will be Great Projects, that take Heavy Rail to a New Level in SEQ....show me the city in the world, that regrets it's BIG investment in heavy rail?

- I'm cool with paying people well for good work, but heavy rail costs, in the closed worlds of QldGovt/QT/QR is about the most Expensive you can get!

Let's help bring on a new golden era of heavy rail.....    Let's begin, by getting a fully empowered and fully resourced SEQ Public Transit Authority up and running, to study, plan, design, construct and operate/maintain all Public Transit in SEQ and get it away from politicians and existing road-centric govt departments!

Keep the pressure on BOTH the current State Govt and Opposition...their both heads in the sand default position specialists, when it comes to heavy rail!

They can also hide and avoid scrutiny/issues behind the CRR body.

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on October 03, 2022, 19:21:52 PMThey can also hide and avoid scrutiny/issues behind the CRR body.

Indeed, made reference to that in earlier tweet above.

It's as if it was deliberately setup to avoid scrutiny ...   

The RTI exemption is something I have never been happy with as well.  Commercial in confidence stuff to a point I can live with but not blanket (except for the CSO) as they have. 

Appalling non-transparency. And sends a strong message of the Government's intentions.  Hide everything ...

Sent to all outlets:

Call for transparency with the real costs of Cross River Rail and associated projects

4th October 2022

Good Morning,

There is confusion with the actual costs of Cross River Rail.  An opinion piece in yesterdays Couriermail viz. 'Opinion: Cross River Rail budget blowout could cost Labor power' ( https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/peter-gleeson/opinion-cross-river-rail-budget-blowout-could-cost-labor-power/news-story/8b0ffa1b6241a26b8b059e1a97809cff ) states in part " ... In Queensland budget papers, dated August 17, the total estimated CRR project cost at June, 2020, was $7,654m, while the total estimated cost at June, 2022, was $9,471m.... ".  This is very different from the original capital cost of $5,400m ($5.4bn).

We think some of this cost escalation is due to additional projects not included in the original scope being added in. For example signalling equipment upgrades for the NGRs, additional train stabling facilities, new stations on the Gold Coast line. The original scope of the project can be reviewed on pages 81, 82 & 208, of the 2017 redacted Cross River Rail 2017 Business Case ( https://cabinet.qld.gov.au/documents/2017/Aug/CRRBusCase/Attachments/BusinessCase.pdf ). Clearly there are now additional projects.

As I stated in my concluding remarks in an interview on ABC Radio Drive with Host Steve Austin on the 2nd August 2022 ( from the 15 minute mark in https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcdrive_rd_2aug22.mp3 ) it is confusing to listeners, confusing to us, and it is confusing to everyone.

Government needs to itemise the cost of each project item in a transparent manner.  The manner of the establishment of the Cross River Rail Delivery Authority (CRRDA) has endeared a lack of transparency, and we believe it was very inappropriate to give CRRDA an almost blanket exemption from RTI requests.

It is time to clarify these issues please Minister Bailey, urgently.  If the Opposition has 'documents' of relevance they should publish them.

We need confidence in this important project, not negative publicity and doubt.

Thank you.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Facebook ...

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1577013820957941760

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1577357359223275521

No politician will avoid disclosing information if it will make them look good.

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1578170683791937537

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1579123333211119618

https://twitter.com/AnnastaciaMP/status/1582283452958748672

^ pity they didn't carry on underground to Yeerongpilly !

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1583377523328843776

Need to register for free tickets.

Register --> here!

https://twitter.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1585748053688221696

Help name the new bridge at Boggo Road

> https://crossriverrail.qld.gov.au/boggo-road-bridge-naming/

The Gallows Walk

They picked a good evening for the movie night hey ..

Half the rail network is closed.

Major weekend track closure - CBD and Southern lines

Start: First service Saturday 5 November
End: Last service Sunday 6 November

https://translink.com.au/updates/167111