RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Yo, the CM is a LNP base.  BT is probably more representative in my view.

It is not going to happen.

I think we should run our own poll....why not everyone else has... for the "Under the River Tunnel" or UTRT to us cool kids.

Or we can bring back the BAT...


Big Awesome Tunnel

Quote from: kram0 on September 15, 2022, 10:32:46 AMWhile I think it's a stupid idea to rename a line that already has a name, the poll on the Courier Mail was the opposite to BT and very much in favour of it.

Should Cross River Rail become the Elizabeth Line?
Yes
80 %
No
20 %
2020 votes

And I'd hazard a guess that many voters on that poll couldn't tell you the difference between CRR and Brisbane Metro.

Still nuts that Boggo Rd does not have integrated platforms and upgraded old station!

It's now we do things here in Queensland, everything is half done.

You want proper integration, go to London, Sydney or Perth.

Sunshine Valley Gazzette 21 September 2022 page 21

https://www.sunshinevalleygazette.com.au/read-paper-online

The Elizabeth Line

QuoteThe Elizabeth Line
by Jeffrey Addison
Sunshine Coast Commuter Advocate

SEPTEMBER 14 saw LNP state leader David Crisafulli and Deputy Leader Jarrod Bleijie launch a petition calling for the Cross River Rail (CRR) project to be renamed the Elizabeth Line in honour of Her late Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II.

Queen Elizabeth II was the second longest reigning monarch in recorded history, her reign spanning 70 years and 214 days. The longest verifiable reign of 72 years and 110 days was held by France's King Louis XIV, with his reign ending 307 years earlier. At a time when the Australian Republican Movement were mostly keeping their tinder dry during the period of mourning for the late Monarch, knowing any actions would win them no friends - this came as a surprise. A name change for CRR would probably have best been discussed after the formalities of the official period of mourning and the Queen's interment at Windsor Castle (Monday 19 September), where she will join husband Prince Phillip, who died last April, aged 99.

The renaming idea comes from the United Kingdom where the first stage of their Crossrail project officially opened on 17 May 2022. Its debut was 3-and-a-half years' late, being scheduled to open in 2018. It's to be a staged opening for the line/s with the final timetable for the landmark project to be introduced in May 2023. When complete, trains will run every twoand-a-half minutes. The £19 billion ($A32.3 billion) UK Crossrail project was renamed the Elizabeth Line for HRH Platinum Jubilee.

This 118km line stretches from Reading in Berkshire, north-west of London through to Shenfield in Essex, north-east of London. It runs west to east across the island nation, connecting both sides to London's heart. It has two branch lines, one connects Heathrow Airport to London from the southwest and the east-side branch runs southeast from Whitechapel Road out to Abbey Wood.

It contains 42km of new tunnels and created 10 new stations in London. Compare that to our $6.9 billion Cross River Rail project that is 10.2km of tunnel and 3 new stations along the Gold Coast line and CRR pales in any form of comparison with the UK rail behemoth.

The other problem with naming it the Elizabeth Line is the fact that the CRR tunnel contains two lines. The Elizabeth Line in the UK is a new eastwest train service running through its own tunnels under central London. Railway lines in Queensland Rail's network are generally named according to regions. The CRR tunnels will accommodate trains from the Sunshine Coast/Caboolture lines and the Redcliffe Peninsula line in the north and the Gold Coast and Beenleigh lines in the south, making it difficult to rename them as one Elizabeth Line without creating confusion for commuters or international travellers. Perhaps it could be saved for a bigger and better Queensland project appropriate for Her Majesty's legacy.

The Queen Elizabeth II Fast-rail network could run from Rosewood in the south to Gympie in the north and from Toowoomba in the west to Maroochydore in the east.

Great video. Glad they didn't throw their hands up and go "it's not flat piece of empty land, can't put a railway there!"
 

QuoteGreat video. Glad they didn't throw their hands up and go "it's not flat piece of empty land, can't put a railway there!"

Of course, you can put a tunnel nearly anywhere.

But what it comes down to is if the expense of tunnelling is worth it for the number of users expected.

For example on the Mandurah line, a 1.5km tunnel through the CBD was done because it was worth it given the large numbers of passengers headed to the CBD, so great importance in terms of centralised access and interchange with the existing lines.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Perth+WA/@-31.9577382,115.8511251,463m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x2a32966cdb47733d:0x304f0b535df55d0!8m2!3d-31.9523123!4d115.861309

But the original plan for a tunnel through Rockingham was ditched, instead opting for a peripheral station in the suburb, because a tunnel was deemed not worth it given the lower number of passengers out there (And the peripheral station could still "Do the job".

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Perth+WA/@-32.2904345,115.7587765,1100m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x2a32966cdb47733d:0x304f0b535df55d0!8m2!3d-31.9523123!4d115.861309

Perth has a tunnel transition out at the airport from Bayswater, the Mandurah line has one to get into the median of the Kwinana Freeway. There are tunnels and elevated parts all over the busway network.

They built additional bridges, strengthened an existing one and put the train down a Perth busway.

Brisbane is a hilly city. Any railway anywhere in Brisbane will likely require some form of cutting, elevation, bridges or tunnel. It's just par for the course.

I was talking more in terms of extensive amounts of tunnelling.

We have tunnels too, for example at Varsity Lakes:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0793993,153.380177,510m/data=!3m1!1e3

Beenleigh:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.7161473,153.2017845,173m/data=!3m1!1e3

What I'm getting at is that if your route requires a lot of tunnelling (Or in particular, underground station boxes) then there has to be a compelling reason to go to the extra expense.

For example, the Boggo Rd busway tunnel would be justified given the huge passenger volumes UQ gets.
But a busway tunnel to Mt Gravatt TAFE probably wouldn't be justified because the passenger volumes would be much smaller.

The soil conditions in Perth are also way easier for tunneling compared to the infamous Brisbane Tuff https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brisbane_tuff

It's not that it's impossible, it's just that it's comparitively expensive. The complicated tunneling of CRR is worth the immense cost due to the benefit it provides for the entire SEQ region

Ah ok, so something like tunnels for HSR in Brisbane wouldn't be viable then due to a mix of tuff soil conditions and low demand?

Or would that be routed via CRR or Merivale bridge?

I think HSR would be viable in the long term since there would be 3 tiers of services using it.


-Intercaptial services to Sydney
-Latent demand from regional passengers, eg Ballina, Coffs etc, where Brisbane is the closest capital city, but public transport is slow.
-Finally, a handful of well placed commuter stops with passing loops on the GC would function a bit like the the Southeastern High Speed javelin services, so you could get to the southern GC in under 30 minutes.

By long term, something like this would be 20 years away by the time they get themselves sorted, at which point our population and transport networks will be under immense pressure. Think of it like "CRR 3".

As an interim measure, long distance services could continue to use the Merivale bridge, which is less heavily used now.

CRR is narrow gauge and the loading gauge is too small for a HSR set.

Quote from: #Metro on September 21, 2022, 12:52:15 PMAh ok, so something like tunnels for HSR in Brisbane wouldn't be viable then due to a mix of tuff soil conditions and low demand?

Or would that be routed via CRR or Merivale bridge?

I don't understand why you brought that up, I'm not an HSR Stan or anything. I have no idea what the projected demand for interstate HSR would be. I expect if the travel time was comparitive with flying then it would be comparitive patronage-wise? Idk.

All the intercity HSR plans Ive seen involve tunneling to the inner city so I guess the plan is that the cost would be worth it. I'm no expert though

My point was more that rail tunneling through the suburbs is often not as economically viable. There have been criticisms against Melbourne's SRL plans because of this

In Australia, there's only really one "Suburban" line that runs underground for a long distance and with multiple underground stations, that's the North West Metro in Sydney, but even that has some pretty good anchors along the underground section, including bona fide business districts at Macquarie Park, and Bella Vista (Woolworths HQ) as well as Castle Hill.

QuoteIn Australia, there's only really one "Suburban" line that runs underground for a long distance and with multiple underground stations, that's the North West Metro in Sydney, but even that has some pretty good anchors along the underground section, including bona fide business districts at Macquarie Park, and Bella Vista (Woolworths HQ) as well as Castle Hill.

It is a good example, and it is a line that goes up a hill (Castle Hill, elevation 142 m above sea level, for comparison Eatons Hill is ~ 84 m above sea level). It uses a mix of tunnels and elevated track to do that.

QuoteI don't understand why you brought that up, I'm not an HSR Stan or anything. I have no idea what the projected demand for interstate HSR would be. I expect if the travel time was comparitive with flying then it would be comparitive patronage-wise? Idk.

Well it is important from a viability perspective. Which of the following conditions are likely to be true regarding patronage:

HSR > Suburban Rail line in Brisbane
HSR = Suburban Rail line in Brisbane
HSR < Suburban Rail line in Brisbane

Because if HSR < Suburban Rail line in Brisbane, and already a suburban rail line wouldn't justify a tunnel, then wouldn't that also suggest that a tunnel for HSR would be unviable also?

QuoteThere have been criticisms against Melbourne's SRL plans because of this

I think parts of the SRL are unviable. They drew it up outside the usual approval processes. That said Melbourne orbital traffic is a nightmare - there would be an advantage for rail. Some sections are worth doing, but unlikely the whole project IMHO.

Overall, I think if it were to happen, you would need a CRR 3 as Gazza mentioned.

Quote from: #Metro on September 21, 2022, 13:29:28 PM

QuoteIn Australia, there's only really one "Suburban" line that runs underground for a long distance and with multiple underground stations, that's the North West Metro in Sydney, but even that has some pretty good anchors along the underground section, including bona fide business districts at Macquarie Park, and Bella Vista (Woolworths HQ) as well as Castle Hill.

It is a good example, and it is a line that goes up a hill (Castle Hill, elevation 142 m above sea level, for comparison Eatons Hill is ~ 84 m above sea level). It uses a mix of tunnels and elevated track to do that.

Once again, nothing to do with the ability of the human race to dig tunnels. In particular, Switzerland has been doing it all across the country for close to the good part of 2 centuries now. And before it's brought about about the relatively low population of some of these villages serviced, this was back in a time where rich random people could along and build infrastructure for the great price of 2 chickens and some corn. Plus, cars weren't a thing back then so to get across that few thousand metre tall snowy and rocky mountain, it was either train or walk. Take your pick.

Pull up Google Maps satellite and have a quick geez at the land use and intensities along the NW Metro corridor, then do the same for Old Northern Road. You simply cannot compare the two.

Cross River Rail is a great investment that will benefit the entire SEQ region, with a positive BCR (around 1.8 IIRC). A tunnel to Albany Creek (an area with a population barely scraping 25,000) will be lucky to have a BCR even close to 0.5.

QuoteWell it is important from a viability perspective. Which of the following conditions are likely to be true regarding patronage:

HSR > Suburban Rail line in Brisbane
HSR = Suburban Rail line in Brisbane
HSR < Suburban Rail line in Brisbane

Because if HSR < Suburban Rail line in Brisbane, and already a suburban rail line wouldn't justify a tunnel, then wouldn't that also suggest that a tunnel for HSR would be unviable also?

Obviously these issues need a little nuance.
Eg the longer a suburban train line is, the more passengers it will get.
The denser an area a train line goes through, the more passengers it will get.


So I took a look at our latest rail extension, the Kippa Ring line, and it was getting about 1.7m passengers per annum. From https://seqtransit.henrus1.com/

Then had a look at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_passenger_air_routes

BNE-SYD gets 4.8m passengers per year.

But of course, these are not the only people that would be using a HSR line.

-A HSR would increase the rail mode share to the GC tremendously. With trains getting you to the coast in under 30 minutes you could probably get 20m+ passengers per year from that.

-Regional public transport mode share is non existent. Your current choices are things like a train to Coffs harbour that take 5h or a Greyhound that takes 7h
https://documents.greyhound.com.au/common/timetables/Brisbane-Sydney.pdf
Or of course driving.

Presumably you would win a lot of mode share with that.

Im not sure of the air passenger numbers between Sydney and Coolangatta, but they would also contribute to HSR patronage.
Why?
Because it is unlikely  you'd build SYD to GC as a standalone project, so the only way Coolangatta would "get onboard" would be piggybacking off the broader project to Brisbane.

Finally, one difference between a HSR line and a suburban line is that HSR passengers are paying more, so that would allow for more costly infrastructure.

If i had to guess, you could get 30m passengers per year at a minimum with HSR from Brisbane to Sydney for Queensland related traffic.

Obviously people using other parts of the line ( people on the Newcastle and Central coast etc) could easily push that to 50 or 60m passengers per year.

Some photographs travelling on a NGR UP from Park Road through to near Dutton Park, southern portal area CRR















Photographs R Dow 23rd September 2022

https://twitter.com/AnnastaciaMP/status/1573856454083166208

Brisbanetimes --> CBD now connected to Gabba as Cross River Rail reaches new milestone

QuoteBrisbane's CBD is now connected to the Gabba by train tracks beneath Brisbane River, marking the latest milestone for the Cross River Rail project.

Transport and Main Roads Minister Mark Bailey announced on Sunday more than 3 kilometres of tracks had been laid in each direction between the future Albert Street and Woolloongabba stations. ...

https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/96210

Underground train tracks now in place under the Brisbane River for the first time
25th September 2022

Minister for Transport and Main Roads
The Honourable Mark Bailey

The Gabba and Brisbane CBD are now connected by underground train tracks in both directions beneath the Brisbane River for the first time in history, marking the latest milestone for the transformational Cross River Rail project.

Transport and Main Roads Minister Mark Bailey said more than three kilometres of train tracks, in each direction, now connected the future Albert Street and Woolloongabba stations.

"Cross River Rail now has rail crossing under the river," Mr Bailey said.

"This is a huge milestone for the project and for south east Queensland as we continue to make progress on Queensland's biggest rail project.

"What we're seeing here today is the track that will move our growing population, footy fans and future games goers once Cross River Rail is operational.

"Better yet, the major project continues to support good jobs right across the South East with 15 active project sites around the network.

"Cross River Rail is key to unblocking the bottleneck on the rail network and delivering better train services for Queenslanders."

Mr Bailey said about 60 workers were involved in completing the sections of track in the twin tunnels.

"The work going on beneath the CBD and the river itself to build Brisbane's new underground is incredible, and I thank all the workers involved for their efforts," he said.

"All up, crews laid about 385 tonnes of rail between the two future stations, setting about 9400 blocks in roughly 2800 cubic metres of concrete.

"As the first set of tracks to be complete, they also represent the start of the significant rail revolution already underway in Queensland, of which Cross River Rail is just the start.

"These tracks now under the river will help create the capacity in our network and realise the benefit of other investments, including the Beerburrum to Nambour and Kuraby to Beenleigh track upgrades.

"The Palaszczuk Government's pipeline of rail investment is just another example of the State Labor Government's commitment to keeping Queensland moving as our population grows.

"It's full steam ahead as we continue another cracking year of Cross River Rail construction."

Mr Bailey said crews were now starting work on the mechanical and electrical components in the completed section, while tracks were being laid throughout the rest of the tunnels, with works expected to continue throughout next year.

Tunnel tracks fast facts:

The first sections of track have been completed in Cross River Rail's tunnels – the upline and downline between the future Woolloongabba and Albert Street stations.

In these sections, 3192 metres of track has been installed in both twin tunnels.

That equates to:
About 6400 metres of rail (two rails per track), weighing about 385 tonnes.
9400 low vibration blocks (which the rail sits on), weighing between 97kg to 119kg each.
2800 cubic metres of concrete poured to secure tracks.
About 60 workers have been involved in installing the tracks.
All up, about 25 kilometres of rail will be installed in Cross River Rail's tunnels.

ENDS

https://twitter.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1573877240311713792

It seems that Cross River Rail won't open until the end of 2025. Reports 7 News. In addition costs are increasing for the project.

Wasn't that always the spin?
Construction complete in 2024, testing and commissioning in 2025.

Now 7 News is saying late 2025. There was an assumption it was opening early 2025.

QuoteCross River Rail's construction phase is expected to be completed in 2024, and this will be followed by the commissioning and testing of the new signalling system – the European Train Control System (ETCS).

When the safety regulator is satisfied that all practical safety measures and assessments have been achieved, customer services are expected to commence in 2025.

Nothing new. MTP closures have had CRR closures listed for quite a while now. Labor day long weekend (Yeerongpilly-Exhibition lines from 05/10-08/10) and Christmas-New Years 2024 (Yeerongpilly/Sherwood-Albion 25/12-29/12) are the big closure dates with a few NCL total closure/CRR/Gold Coast/Cleveland closures/Park Road closures popping up quite quickly in February/March 2025.

There's a big difference comparing opening the line and opening the line to revenue traffic. It's not like a road.

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1573950431843291136

https://twitter.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1573958621985005568

When was the last time Blue Team built any PT infrastructure - busway or rail- at all? 1979?

 

The Legacy Way, to run 2,000 daily buses through it of course!!

I believe Windsor to Kedron busway tunnel was built under Newman, but that's only because they were building the Airport link tunnel, and if they didn't build that busway section at the same time, it would have been near impossible to build later

Anna Bligh was in office while it was being constructed I believe. Construction continued under a change of government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_of_Queensland

September 16, 2011:

QuoteWith the latest stage of Brisbane's Eastern Busway now open, Queensland Premier Anna Bligh recently inspected progress on the Windsor to Kedron phase of the Northern Busway.

Northern Busway on Track
https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-news/1109/northern-busway-on-track

Coming to think of it, Blue Team couldn't even deliver a bus review 

 

APL and the busway started construction late 2008/2009 and opened mid-2012 (before going into receivership just 8 months later ), State blue team were elected early-2012.

[Metro beat me to it]

The only thing Blue Team have done is the Maroon Political Glid... wait no it's the Maroon Waste Glid... wait that's not it either.... Speaking of which, it's the grand 10 year anniversary of it next February!

I'm struggling to think of anything they initiated in terms of hard infrastructure that actually happened.  Was there anything?

All I can think of off-hand is bus network reviews (for the non BCC regions), off-peak weekday train service frequencies improved, and continuation / ribbon cutting for things already underway from the Bligh government or earlier (Northern Busway, GCLR1, Springfield etc).

QuoteI'm struggling to think of anything they initiated in terms of hard infrastructure that actually happened.  Was there anything?

Brisbanetimes --> Vision to revamp Mary Street in time for Albert St train station

BCC > https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/planning-and-building/planning-guidelines-and-tools/neighbourhood-planning-and-urban-renewal/city-centre-master-plan-2014