RAIL - Back On Track Forum

A bit OT but nice shot of the Kingston Butter Factory in the background on page 2 of the PDF!

MyCityLogan September 13 Edition

Positive signs for investment

https://mycitylogan.com.au/read-the-full-september-13-edition-of-mycity-logan/

I think it is worth looking at all-day Logan express trains. Could leave Park Road then Express to Kuraby, terminate Beenleigh.

Probably would shave ~ 15 minutes off the travel time, a significant benefit.

Would have to do a full analysis but worth looking into.

I would have any such train stop at Altandi so it's following the same express pattern between Kuraby and Park Rd/Boggo Rd as the Gold Coast trains. Any future change should be likewise mirrored. This would give the best use of track capacity and make changing between services easier.

The additional stop for GC trains has moved around over the years. What is its purpose? Busway access?

Coopers Plains is dead, hence the change to Altandi. Altandi has excellent access to bus services towards Sunnybank, Griffith Uni, Mater Hill, Sunnybank Hills, Calamvale, Browns Plains and (not so excellent but has so much future potential) Garden City.

Isnt the GC line the full time express?

No matter where you board, you're only a few stops away from a change onto an express service.

Yeah gonna mirror the others above. Gold Coast line already is the all day express for the Beenleigh line. The stop at Altandi is essential and gets pretty decent patronage from what I understand

Altandi should be moved to intersection of Main and Beenleigh Rd and the bend removed

QuoteAltandi should be moved to intersection of Main and Beenleigh Rd and the bend removed

+1

Yeah if there's a case for Melbourne style LX removal by mass trenching/skyrail, it's the Sunnybank stretch.

Hard part for a trench is the creeks in the area. Basically parallel to Stable Swamp Ck if you want to straighten for a Pinelands intersection station, and you have to go under Bulimba Ck coming out of Runcorn.

Quote from: timh on September 17, 2022, 15:12:14 PMYeah gonna mirror the others above. Gold Coast line already is the all day express for the Beenleigh line. The stop at Altandi is essential and gets pretty decent patronage from what I understand

The all stops from Beenleigh is hideously slow for Logan City commuters. The journey from Beenleigh to Central takes 1 hr 8 min, with an average speed between Beenleigh and Central is 35.9 km/h, only barely faster than the circuitous Cleveland line. I'ts also far more uncompetitive with private transport when there's the M1 within a fairly short distance of most of the stations. According to Google Maps, even the worst case to arrive in the city from Beenleigh on a weekday at 8:30am is 1 hr 10 min, so basically the same as the train, but you don't have to get to the station first. Best case is 40 min, so well ahead. Off-peak best case is 28 minutes, which leaves the train for those dedicated to public transport, or without other options. Having an all-day express for the outer-surburban area of Logan (which Moreton Bay already has, and Ipswich will soon have) will at least make it somewhat more attractive to commuters.

I don't understand your point, "having an all day express". Does Beenleigh not already have all-day express services in the form of Gold Coast trains??

Quote from: timh on September 18, 2022, 07:22:06 AMI don't understand your point, "having an all day express". Does Beenleigh not already have all-day express services in the form of Gold Coast trains??

On the Caboolture line, Caboolture-Petrie inclusive has an all-day express. When CRR opens, Ipswich-Darra will have an all-day express. Despite being roughly 10km further from Central, Caboolture has a 49 minute travel time (some of which is because of alignment, but also because of express running). Logan gets only Beenleigh & Loganlea served by express trains, leaving stations such Edens Landing, Bethania, Kingston & Woodridge poorly-served compared to other long outer-suburban lines. Even Cleveland at least gets peak-hour express trains. Commuters on this line need a better service to encourage them out of their cars.

QuoteThe all stops from Beenleigh is hideously slow for Logan City commuters. The journey from Beenleigh to Central takes 1 hr 8 min, with an average speed between Beenleigh and Central is 35.9 km/h, only barely faster than the circuitous Cleveland line

Excellent observations Achiruel. I'm going to call it... "The Beenleigh line is VLSR!" (VLSR ~ 50 km/hr > Av. Speed)

Actual journeys are slower than published timetables because we always need to adjust for frequency.

And if you do that it's closer to 90 minutes. Add in a 10 minute walk on either side for station access plus possibly a connecting bus... you're easily looking at 100+ minutes door to door.

Does it make sense in the modern era to offer VLSR service to passengers when there is a competing 100 km/hr straight motorway right next to it?

The Logan and Gold coast faster rail project is going to result in increased frequency ( this is why they are doing it)

In this case, you simply treat the express stops in a similar manner to the stops on the Mandurah line that are several kilometres apart.

Focus the buses on Beenleigh, Loganlea and altandi.

Not every stop can have an express service. This is called express to my stationitis

The way I see it.
Passengers in Beenleigh headed for the CBD should be using the express trains.
There are so few passengers using holmview they are irrelevant.
Passengers at Edens landing and Bethania can just ride two stops and change trains at Loganlea

And what will the new average line speed be after works are completed?

QuoteNot every stop can have an express service. This is called express to my stationitis

I'm sure it is, but no RBOT members here are proposing that. What is being proposed is 2-tier service like what is proposed for the Ipswich line and already operates on the Caboolture Line.

For such a big proponent of the Human Transit book, I'm surprised you have a strong focus on speed these days, rather than frequency. Yes, speed and journey times matter. But in the book, he really drives home the point that frequency is more important from a PT users perspective, whereas speed is more of a car drivers mindset.

QuoteFor such a big proponent of the Human Transit book, I'm surprised you have a strong focus on speed these days, rather than frequency. Yes, speed and journey times matter. But in the book, he really drives home the point that frequency is more important from a PT users perspective, whereas speed is more of a car drivers mindset.

Cazza, actually both matter. Because both are inputs to the Generalised Travel Cost Equation, which consists of:

- Access Time to the Stop or station (usually 5-10 min by whatever mode)
- Waiting Time for the Service (Frequency Component)
- The In-Vehicle Time (Speed Component)
- Any additional time for a mid-journey connection (I believe this is the "Transfer Time")
- Access time from the stop or station (usually 5-10 min by whatever mode)

The fact that the train might come every 15 minutes from every 30 minutes, or even every 5 minutes, won't change the fact that the trip overall from Central to Beenleigh (if you catch the all stopper) will take at minimum 60 minutes. The train itself makes 27 stops to Beenleigh. This is a very unpleasant customer experience.

And that is uncompetitive with the car trip off-peak, which takes only about 33 minutes. In other words, even with instant access time and instant frequency, the car is still at least 2x faster. Which means your journey will be 2x LONGER if you catch the train, which is probably a good explanation for why PT=25% max in the mode share statistics.

This goes back to points that Jonno often makes about "stop building freeways". People are using freeways precisely because it gives travellers what they want - the shortest overall journey time, and instantaneous frequency.

And if you need a real-world example, Perth on the Joondalup and Mandurah lines are both fast and frequent. The best of both. So it is not just a case of Speed vs Frequency but Speed + Frequency.

Quote from: #Metro on September 18, 2022, 12:09:35 PM

QuoteFor such a big proponent of the Human Transit book, I'm surprised you have a strong focus on speed these days, rather than frequency. Yes, speed and journey times matter. But in the book, he really drives home the point that frequency is more important from a PT users perspective, whereas speed is more of a car drivers mindset.

The fact that the train might come every 15 minutes from every 30 minutes, or even every 5 minutes, won't change the fact that the trip overall from Central to Beenleigh (if you catch the all stopper) will take at minimum 60 minutes. The train itself makes 27 stops to Beenleigh. This is a very unpleasant customer experience.

Why the hell would anyone bound for Beenleigh station take a Beenleigh line train from Central? Just take a Gold Coast train...

Passengers going to Trinder Park, Kingston, Fruitgrove etc. would currently take the slow train yes. However, once the LGCFR + CRR opens, you can get far more frequent Gold coast services. So, just like Gazza suggested, if I was say, heading from Albert Street to Kingston, I can catch a GC express train to Loganlea and transfer to a connecting Beenleigh line local service to get those last few stops.

I think long term the Beenleigh/Gold Coast line still "wants" to be three-tiered. If an express train could keep a consistent 80 km/h Kuraby to Boggo Rd, plus two stops, it'd be a similar point to point time as driving at night and extremely competitive against traffic.

Ideally that inner tier would go through South Brisbane; there's plenty of demand for it. Though that needs infrastructure we don't even have in the pipeline, like a quad from Park Rd to Salisbury. To be fair, we'll want that quad for Flagstone, eventually.

Beenleigh Line 2-Tier Service Concept



I would like to explore this idea further. But before we can start to pull it apart and assess its merits, we do need to have some agreement around a potential 2-tier stopping pattern for the analysis. I've mapped this out concept in a line diagram. Interested members can then make, suggest, or debate refinements.

The Express/Local Common Station

The first issue is that there needs to be a station where both the Beenleigh Local and Beenleigh Express both stop at. In version 1 this is Kuraby Station where trains can be turned back. This means that the Beenleigh Express train would run express to Kuraby and then begin stopping at all stations after that. For passengers in the Logan LGA, about 13 intermediate stations would be cut from their trip.

Flexibility- Should this common station be moved back to Altandi instead?

Gold Coast and Beenleigh Line Common Station

This causes questions to arise around the Gold Coast line trains too - do we really really need to stop Gold Coast Line passengers at Kuraby station? Of what benefit is it to them? Would it be better just not to have Gold Coast trains stop there at all?

Do Gold Coast passengers need to stop at Altandi either? Wouldn't you just change to the Beenleigh express at Beenleigh?

Update: Added Altandi Option (Version 2)

Quote from: #Metro on September 18, 2022, 22:05:44 PMThis causes questions to arise around the Gold Coast line trains too - do we really really need to stop Gold Coast Line passengers at Kuraby station? Of what benefit is it to them? Would it be better just not to have Gold Coast trains stop there at all?

Do Gold Coast passengers need to stop at Altandi either? Wouldn't you just change to the Beenleigh express at Beenleigh?

Update: Added Altandi Option (Version 2)

Hypothetically, how do you expect someone who takes the Gold Coast Line from the Gold Coast suburbs (let's say Varsity Lakes) to a suburb that IS NOT covered by the proposed express Beenleigh Line? Maybe they're travelling to Nissan Arena for a Bullets game or they're attending Griffith Uni at Nathan/ Mt Gravatt. Do you really expect them to take 3 separate services in each direction?

I'm not going to bother with the maths but even if all three services were at a frequency of 4 services per hour - 15 minutely (which in reality is highly unlikely) - the dwell times on each station in addition to the time spent in motion is highly probable to not be a competitive option for choosing to drive to the individual's destination.

QuoteI'm not going to bother with the maths but even if all three services were at a frequency of 4 services per hour - 15 minutely (which in reality is highly unlikely) - the dwell times on each station in addition to the time spent in motion is highly probable to not be a competitive option for choosing to drive to the individual's destination.

Thanks for the comment. Questions like these are part of the concept exploration process. I'm not going to pretend to know the answer - which is why the concept is up for discussion.

a) Maybe that person would drive. Or they might have to move house to be closer to the Uni. But for every such person lost, they would be more than be replaced by others who would find the service faster and more useful. So maybe it would be a net gain overall?

b) We could add a stop to the Gold Coast train at the common station - either Kuraby or Altandi.

Also - Gold Coast Logan Faster Rail is just a 4 minutes time saving? Is this true??

Well, when you add in the extra three stations, no it is not true!

(The 4 minutes is really on the run in from Beenleigh, but it will be offset by the extra stations).

Might be layered services between Beenleigh and GC one day.

I decided to run some numbers on the current timetable, plus estimates on further improvements that might occur.
I picked Roma St because it is a common point between all lines so makes comparison easier.



I assumed CRR would save about 4 minutes
I assumed the faster rail project would save between 1 and 4 minutes for all trains depending on the station, eg the closer you are to Kuraby the less time spent running on the new infrastructure.
All stops trains will save some time too, due to the removal of the Trinder Park curves, maybe 1 or 2 mins.

One important realisation is that with both projects, Loganlea will have a travel time to the CBD of just 32 minutes.

The only stations with a travel time over 45 mins after all improvements are done will be
Bethania, (144 boardings per day)
Edens Landing  (82 boardings per day)
Holmview (33 boardings per day)

In comparison Loganlea gets 1000 per day

To me, running a 3rd express tier out to Beenleigh is a waste of resources.
People at Beenleigh wont want to use it because it would still be slower than a GC train.
There aren't enough passengers after Loganlea to fill the service (And its questionable if Holmview should even exist!)

Kingston will still take 45 mins to get to Roma St, Woodridge 41 mins, but to be honest this isn't really different to comparable stations like Booval, which takes 43 mins (on the Ipswich Express!)

QuoteI think long term the Beenleigh/Gold Coast line still "wants" to be three-tiered.

I think the 3rd tier will come when Flagstone gets built....

Quote from: #Metro on September 19, 2022, 00:49:11 AMb) We could add a stop to the Gold Coast train at the common station - either Kuraby or Altandi.

I think this is basically required if you want to do a 3-tier service to prevent the aforementioned weird transfer scenarios. I do agree with some others in the thread though, I'm not sure how practical this idea is compared to running GC trains as expresses for the Beenleigh line. Interested to see how the numbers pan out!

QuoteI think this is basically required if you want to do a 3-tier service to prevent the aforementioned weird transfer scenarios. I do agree with some others in the thread though, I'm not sure how practical this idea is compared to running GC trains as expresses for the Beenleigh line. Interested to see how the numbers pan out!

Thanks for the comment. Like a lot of things on this forum (TODs, Bus lanes, etc) how the numbers pan out makes all the difference. Altandi is probably the better station for a connecting service between tiers as it is essentially a junction with the busway (unless other members would like to recommend a different station).

Also, wasn't CRR supposed to save 10 minutes? Or is that the Minister Mark Bailey just overselling CRR?

Source: https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/81444

QuoteCross River Rail will allow the rail network to expand, offering faster travel times across South East Queensland:

There will be four new underground stations at Boggo Road, Woolloongabba, Albert Street and Roma Street and two upgraded stations at Dutton Park and the Exhibition Showgrounds.
Commuters will save up to 15 minutes if travelling from southern stations such as Beenleigh
Commuters will save up to eight minutes if travelling from northern stations such as Petrie
Commuters will save up to six minutes if travelling from western stations such as Ipswich
Commuters will save up to 14 minutes if travelling from eastern stations such as Cleveland

That includes the walk time saving since theoretically Albert St is within 500m of basically all of the CBD now.

4 mins feels like a realistic saving for the rail portion, since you are now skipping the slow curves and junction conflicts at Roma St and Park Road.

For what its worth, I have no problem with the current arrangements. The trains themselves just need to go faster!
The express stops of Beenleigh, Loganlea and Altanti make sense for their own reasons.

In the long term I think one more express stop would be added when Flagstone goes in, I'm thinking Moorooka would be the right one for that.

Hey side point, does anyone have a copy of the temp GC line stopping pattern and time table that was used during the 24h service for the commonwealth games?

Yeah Altandi (or future Pinelands station) is pretty mandatory as an all-tiers stop because it's the Mains Rd / SE Busway connection.

In a 3 tier system with Kuraby terminators it probably isn't necessary for GC trains to stop at Kuraby (it's only Runcorn and Fruitgrove that get overshot).

Quote from: Gazza on September 19, 2022, 10:33:11 AMI think the 3rd tier will come when Flagstone gets built....

If Flagstone is running 9 car trains then presumably it's running express inbound of Salisbury.

(I hadn't considered making Moorooka the "junction" station rather than Salisbury. Not 100% convinced but it has its upsides.)

Quote from: ozbob on September 19, 2022, 04:16:53 AMWell, when you add in the extra three stations, no it is not true!

(The 4 minutes is really on the run in from Beenleigh, but it will be offset by the extra stations).

Might be layered services between Beenleigh and GC one day.

A closer look at this perhaps the ' four minutes  ' saving is only for the two peak Beenleigh trains that get overtaken at Bethania and have a four minute time penalty.

There seems to be a fair bit of spin with the ' time savings ' #Metro posted above.

We will not get any direct answers yet either, we will probably have to wait for the new timetables before we know what is actually the time savings (if any).

I have saved all the current timetables today.  Might be useful down the track.

Savings from easing the curves around Trinder Park probably only a minute or so.

I remain hopeful other time savings can be locked in

-Trinder park curves
-Less sandbagging in the timetable due to having to balance crossing manoeuvres and avoidance trains catching up with each other, and by definition only using NGRs.
-Reviewed track speeds in general due to better track conditions.
-Other potential curve easing that can happen at the same time in the corridor.

QuoteIf Flagstone is running 9 car trains then presumably it's running express inbound of Salisbury.

(I hadn't considered making Moorooka the "junction" station rather than Salisbury. Not 100% convinced but it has its upsides.)

My thinking for Moorooka is that
- It's no much further on from Salisbury, so the small number of backtracking passengers aren't really penalised.
-Salisbury is a nothing station that shouldn't be a major interchange
-Moorooka makes better sense in the road network for buses in every direction
-Government wants to build a bus interchange there.
-Moorooka could potentially be a terminus for a Corinda/Tennyson shuttle too (foam) so it also gets picked up by that stopping pattern.


As for Flagstone, yeah ideally I'd love to see it with 9 car trains, with GC and Flagstone using CRR, and the all stops Beenleigh train back to using Southbank, so long as the track layouts allowed for sectorisation between the two.

Gazza, here you go ..

Special Gold Coast 2018 Commonwealth Games timetable
Effective Thursday 5 April to Sunday 15 April 2018

180405-gold-coast-airport.pdf

There was another one as well

Gold Coast and Airport line Special Easter holiday weekend timetable
Effective 30 March to Monday 2 April 2018

180330-gold-coast-airport.pdf

Sure, Loganlea has a lot of patronage, but how much of that is due to natural demand, and how much due to the "express effect"? I know people who live closer to Kingston (even walking distance) who will drive to Loganlea to catch the express train. It doesn't seem sensible to me, but that's how some people's minds work.

I really wonder if Woodridge makes more sense as an interchange station, as it has far more bus services, but then you would also lose the benefit of Logan Hospital & TAFE being accessible to GC services.

There's also the possibility that in the new TT, Loganlea becomes the suburban terminus, and Bethania-Beenleigh become part of the GC line. It's an idea I heard some years ago and IIRC there was some shiny brochure to support the concept at the time, but I'm not sure if it still has (or ever had) any basis in reality.

Connecting SEQ 2031 had UrbanLink to Loganlea (via South Brisbane), ExpressLink to Helensvale (and Flagstone), and CoastLink to Coolangatta.

I suppose my 3-tier concept is basically that, except the tier boundaries are shifted a bit.

QuoteThere's also the possibility that in the new TT, Loganlea becomes the suburban terminus, and Bethania-Beenleigh become part of the GC line. It's an idea I heard some years ago and IIRC there was some shiny brochure to support the concept at the time, but I'm not sure if it still has (or ever had) any basis in reality.

I dont see why they would. It's not what is shown in Rail Connects.
They are going to quad Kuraby to Beenleigh as part of this project, so why would you have express tracks through Bethania if you were then going to stop GC trains there?

Quote from: ozbob on September 19, 2022, 12:29:18 PMGazza, here you go ..

Special Gold Coast 2018 Commonwealth Games timetable
Effective Thursday 5 April to Sunday 15 April 2018

180405-gold-coast-airport.pdf

Fascinating,

So 48 minutes to Beenleigh, and 41 minutes to Loganlea, 28 mins to Altandi on the CommGames timetable.
Exact same time to Beenleigh, 3 minutes slower to Loganlea, 3 minutes slower to Altandi.

What this shows is that there is enough fat in the timetable to Beenleigh that you can add 3 stops (Yeronga, Coopers, Woodridge) and still make it up after Loganlea.

QuoteSure, Loganlea has a lot of patronage, but how much of that is due to natural demand, and how much due to the "express effect"? I know people who live closer to Kingston (even walking distance) who will drive to Loganlea to catch the express train. It doesn't seem sensible to me, but that's how some people's minds work.

I really wonder if Woodridge makes more sense as an interchange station, as it has far more bus services, but then you would also lose the benefit of Logan Hospital & TAFE being accessible to GC services.

The same would occur at Woodridge, it would draw patronage away from other stations if it had express services.

For me its a case of 'picking a winner'.
There are definitely arguments for either station. Woodridge has the plaza, council and civic and community facilities, and some major bus connections.

In a perfect world, you'd somehow have GC Woodridge on the express pattern. It is 5km from Loganlea.

Maybe that's the solution? Forget about running a 3rd tier, just do some form on infrastructure intervention that makes it possible to add the Woodridge stop without time penalty.

It ultimately means that all points of interest in Logan have access to a reasonably fast rail service.
Anything north of Woodridge doesn't warrant an express service because they are sufficiently close to the CBD.

There is another option - which I think is good and would pull together a number of member suggestions. It involves:

- 2x Train Upgrade Zones (TUZ), one on the GC line and one on the Beenleigh Line

- Increasing Gold Coast line frequency to 4 trains/hour in the off-peak (Perth already does this to Mandurah and Joondalup which are much smaller cities than the GC so IMHO this is uncontroversial)

- Increasing Beenleigh line train frequency to 4 trains/hour off-peak to all stations. Beenleigh station would become very busy with trains every ~ 7.5 minutes or so in the off-peak (8 trains/hr/direction).

- Altandi becomes a common stop in the middle to tie it all together. As both lines run frequently, it becomes easy to transfer between GC express and Beenleigh all stopper services.

Things to think about

- Under this concept, is it necessary to stop at Loganlea if Beenleigh trains are going past there every 15 minutes? Probably could give that time back to Gold Coast line trains and possibly more if the timetable fat were reduced.

- Do we have data about the use of Loganlea for users who have Beenleigh and Gold Coast as origins or destinations? It would be good to quantify that. 

- Due to the close station spacing and slowness of trains, the cost to extend and then double Beenleigh line train frequency will be significant. Should frequent service (4tph) end at Kuraby with 2tph on the Beenleigh line continuing to Beenleigh? Or just copy Perth and do it all the way?

Quote from: #Metro on September 19, 2022, 21:05:19 PM- Do we have data about the use of Loganlea for users who have Beenleigh and Gold Coast as origins or destinations? It would be good to quantify that. 

Out of Loganlea boardings: Beenleigh line 21%; Gold Coast line 19%; inner southern stations 21%; city stations 34%. (All this on March 2019 data, being the traditionally busiest month of the last pre-COVID year).

I think it makes sense to retain an express stop between Beenleigh and Altandi and Loganlea's as good a spot as any to put it.

QuoteI think it makes sense to retain an express stop between Beenleigh and Altandi and Loganlea's as good a spot as any to put it.

Consider... passengers at Loganlea will be compensated with more 2x more frequent Beenleigh line trains in exchange for giving up the express train. How necessary is it to have 8 trains/hr stopping at Loganlea by including the 4 trains/hr GC express too? Yes there is a hospital there, but note that the GC train doesn't stop at PA Hospital at Dutton Park.

And they can change at Beenleigh, which will be easier to change trains and lines if it were to go TUZ (4 trains/hr).

Gold Coast line is getting more infill stations and will need to be extended to the Gold Coast Airport at Coolangatta. As a very long distance service (~ 100 km distance when complete to the GC Airport) the speed of that should be protected IMHO.