Kuraby to Beenleigh capacity improvement (Logan - Gold Coast Faster Rail)

[#Metro]

How many minutes will the project save when completed? What impact will it have on the average train speed?

[ozbob]

How many minutes will the project save when completed? What impact will it have on the average train speed?

This has been discussed before many times.  Probably a couple of minutes between Beenleigh and Kuraby.  Reliability and the ability to run trains at a higher frequency is really the benefit.  But when you take into account the extra three stations on the Goldie, that will negate any gains inner sections for the long haulers.

The time savings spun by Government really relate to the more central direct location of Albert St and walking time saved (from Central)  ... 

(Note to self:  save all the current timetables).

[Jonno]

All this money and Loganlea to Beenleigh is on 1 side of the development in this area.  Nothing is going to change but it continues to do my head in.

[#Metro]

During peak periods, all-stop Beenleigh trains need to be held to 1 side for about 4 minutes to allow Gold Coast express trains to pass through during peak periods.

From the website, the time saving is likely to be 4-5 minutes. This value being the 'delay and hold' time of the Beenleigh train as it gives way to the Gold Coast trains on shared track. I don't think there is an 'official' value yet as TMR are still working on a finalised design. But let's say its about 5 min time saving.

Analysis: Time savings unlikely to be uniform for Gold Coast vs Beenleigh line trains

The current Beenleigh line train takes 64 minutes to travel from Roma Street to Beenleigh (39.3 km from Roma Street). That gives an average train speed of 36.8 km/hr to Beenleigh. If we subtract 5 minutes, then this becomes an average train speed of 39.96 km/hr, a gain of 3.1 km/hr from these works...

Now, is there a benefit for Gold Coast trains in terms of average train speed? And if so, how big is it?

This is a much more difficult question to answer because the project seems to impact different services differently. It is the Gold Coast train that imposes a delay on the Beenleigh line train. As a Gold Coast train is assumed to experience no delay under the current setup, it also does not experience the 5 minute time delay Beenleigh line trains experience.

So the time saving for Gold Coast trains is unlikely to also be 5 minutes.

Any time saving for Gold Coast trains would thus have to come from:
- a higher track speed limit on its dedicated track than today (to be confirmed), and
- speed gained from a curve easing (likely minimal)
- reliability improvements from unforseen delay of the obstructing Beenleigh train (either not reflected in the current timetable, or reflected as timetable 'padding')

What this suggests that the time saving for GC trains from this project is likely to be less that the time benefit for Beenleigh line trains.

We do not have the benefit of knowing at whether the track speed limit for GC trains will be the same as it is today, or raised to be much faster when the project is completed. If it's a dedicated track with the same speed limit as today, Gold Coast trains will run to the timetable and the time saving for GC trains will be none, or close to.

So I think it is necessary to confirm the time savings for Beenleigh and Gold Coast services separately with TMR. The time saving benefit is not going to be a uniform 5 min saving across different services.

Gold Coast and Logan Faster rail
https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/logan-and-gold-coast-faster-rail

[#Metro]

Gold Coast Train Theoretical Time Savings - Park Road to Beenleigh Station Pair

The section that will remain the same after CRR opening is the Park Road to Beenleigh section. This section is about 35 km in distance (calculated from distances from Brisbane Central Station). The following list is a range of potential time savings for a given range of input average speeds. The actual range of time savings would be narrower than this list because above a certain speed, stop spacing of stations will put an upper limit to what average speed you can achieve.

Members will see that the value is approaching a limit. You cannot save more than 28 minutes in this section because that would require a train going faster than 210 km/hr, the record achieved on narrow gauge in QLD.



Below, to achieve a given time saving, the average train speed that must be maintained between Park Road and Beenleigh is given:

To save about 10 minutes, the train needs to maintain 75 km/hr
To save 15 minutes, the train needs to maintain above 90 km/hr
To save 20 minutes, the train needs to maintain 120 km/hr

Conclusion

What this suggests is that time savings up to 20 minutes (theoretical) might be possible without having to resort to trains that are maintaining 160 km/hr - 200 km/hr. The current rollingstock is probably designed to do bursts of high speed, but not maintain long stretches of it (wear and tear). You would likely need better trains to cope with the sustained higher speeds.

 

[SurfRail]

Time savings in terms of journey time (from doors closing to opening) really aren't everything.  They are important but don't tell the whole picture.

Being able to provide train services every 5 minutes to every Gold Coast station in peak and 15 minutes headway all day will drastically reduce the average wait time which is probably the largest time saving for most people.  Remains to be seen if they will actually pay to deliver these kinds of headways out of peak of course.  Similarly Beenleigh line capacity can be expanded and short runners extended either all the way to Beenleigh or somewhere further along than Coopers Plains. 

The lack of track capacity between Kuraby and Dutton Park will continue to be annoying, but at least they can quad the entirety from Kuraby to Yeerongpilly with little to no impact outside the rail corridor.  Short tunnel from Yeerongpilly to hook into the CRR tracks between Dutton Park and Boggo Road is probably going to be needed in the long run to fix this properly and ensure there is a free third track for freight.  This will also make it easier to run Acacia Ridge and beyond services via Dutton Park and South Bank (or via CRR and switch Beenleigh back via South Bank, whatever makes more sense).

I'm resigned to any time saving from CRR for Gold Coast trains basically paying for the addition of Pimpama, Hope Island and Merrimac, with a tiny bit of upside from the Trinder Park realignment.  Beenleigh trains of course will still be 5 minutes faster to the CBD than current, whether you use the Gold Coast express or the all stations.

I'd rather the system be more accessible and provide stations in more useful locations than simply have a 5 minute speed increase.  In particular, I'd prefer it if Ormeau could eventually be decommissioned and a new station built at Eggersdorf Road to replace it as the "new" Ormeau, but I'm doubtful that will happen, given the hullabaloo around Dutton Park and the fact they haven't closed Bindha despite it being many times more useless.

[HappyTrainGuy]

No problem with rollingstock maintaining speed for long periods of time. None at all. This is a suburban network. Not an intercity network. HSSMUs were software related mods that enabled them to exceed their intended max speed which lead to issues that created vibration and excessive wear. When the software mods were removed problems vanished instantly. SMU260/IMU160 issues were under acceleration which were resolved by slowing down their acceleration curve. The ECU was tripping safe modes or even halting the train completely (if you listen to the traction motors when you hear it 'change gear' - basically it's the tone pitch change - this was where issues kicked hard. EMUs have no problem with speed but their braking system enabled a higher chance of flat spotting depending on the conditions compared to other rollingstock (think of traction in the wet under acceleration and braking. EMUs can burst into wheel spin or brake locking compared to other rollingstock). Most issues actually relate to passenger comfort than rollingstock wear and tear. This is where your budget comes into play. Increase passenger comfort but at a cost. Increase passenger discomfort but you get cheaper rollingstock. Plug door's dramatically lower the wind noise along with proving a seal but at a higher cost. Traction motors now play a part where you now have increased weight and speeds. Do you go cheap or spend more on better motors which cost a lot more. You might get a specially made train but you can still get cheap components as we have seen on the off the shelf NGRs and SMU260/IMU160.

[#Metro]

Time savings in terms of journey time (from doors closing to opening) really aren't everything.  They are important but don't tell the whole picture.

Being able to provide train services every 5 minutes to every Gold Coast station in peak and 15 minutes headway all day will drastically reduce the average wait time which is probably the largest time saving for most people.  Remains to be seen if they will actually pay to deliver these kinds of headways out of peak of course.  Similarly Beenleigh line capacity can be expanded and short runners extended either all the way to Beenleigh or somewhere further along than Coopers Plains.

Agree on this point - Perth already does 15 minutes all day for Mandurah and Joondalup lines.
Mandurah is much smaller than the Gold Coast.

Increasing train frequency would save up to 15 minutes from journeys (average saving 7.5 minutes). With trains maintaining 120 km/hr average speeds along an upgraded Beenleigh line corridor OR a new R1 corridor, another 20 mins could potentially be knocked off the journey.

With a combination of speed and frequency upgrades, we could potentially be looking at a combined time saving of up to ~ 30 minutes for Gold Coast train users.  That size of time saving would really move the dial towards trains being much more of an alternative.

[Jonno]

Interesting At least not demolished Hopefully cost effective
https://twitter.com/meaghan_scanlon/status/1677924570500849664?

[ozbob]

Media Statement

https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/98163

Palaszczuk Government gives rescued homes new life

Minister for Housing
The Honourable Meaghan Scanlon
9th July 2023

. 11 homes will be saved from demolition and used as social housing
. Homes from the Logan Rail Corridor redevelopment zone will be moved to state-owned land.
. The first home has been relocated to Sunnybank and is being made ready for new tenants.

Eleven homes destined for demolition will be repurposed as social housing for Queenslanders in need.

The homes were originally in blocks scheduled to be redeveloped as part of the Logan Rail Corridor and will be moved to state-owned land.

The first social home has already made the journey to its new location in Sunnybank and is being made ready for new tenants.

A contract has been awarded to move another social home and nine more tenders are currently open.

Quotes attributable to Member for Stretton James Martin:

"I'm excited to welcome the first social home from the Logan Rail Corridor redevelopment right here to Sunnybank.

"The large family home will open its doors to its new Sunnybank residents shortly after it is refurbished."

Quotes attributable to Housing Minister Meaghan Scanlon:

"My focus is on getting Queenslanders in need into social housing sooner, and that's exactly what we're doing.

"When we found out these homes were suitable for relocation, we jumped at the chance to repurpose them for social housing.

"Whether it's through moving homes earmarked for demolition or repurposing retirement homes – we're putting all options on the table to help Queenslanders."

Quotes attributable to Transport and Main Roads Minister Mark Bailey:

"The Logan Rail Corridor will not only provide Queenslanders with better transport but will now be responsible for housing Queenslanders in need.

"The Palaszczuk Government will continue to work across portfolios to find new ways to help Queenslanders."

ENDS

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1677940551931555840

 

[#Metro]

These "attributable quotes" are presented in the same way as Andrews Government (Victoria) media releases. Is there a connection?

[aldonius]

These "attributable quotes" are presented in the same way as Andrews Government (Victoria) media releases. Is there a connection?

... I mean, they're both Labor state government media releases.

[ozbob]

These "attributable quotes" are presented in the same way as Andrews Government (Victoria) media releases. Is there a connection?

These starting appearing a month or two ago.  My guess is a staffer ex Dan-land has taken up domicile in the land of much hope, but not that much delivery ...   

[ozbob]

Logan businesses could be bulldozed to make way for new train station carpark | 7NEWS

[Jonno]

Seriously the rail line is in the completely wrong location here yet urban/population areas and commerical centres to the west are left with bus as the only public transport option.  The route between Beenleigh and Loganlea should be further to the west.  yes will cost more but also return more to thecommunity/tax-payer.

[#Metro]

West? What's west of the line? Like Yarrabilba, Logan Village? Or did you mean more East?

[Jonno]

Holmview, Waterford, Waterford West around around the main road.

[andrewr]

Apparently the Beaudesert line once went from Bethania to Beaudesert via Waterford and Logan Village, built around the same time as the Beenleigh Line, but ceased operating passenger services in 1961.

You can see on a topographical map that the Beenleigh Line was built on level land to avoid cutting and filling.

I completely agree that many parts of that line don't make sense anymore. Other parts of the line are a missed opportunity: Sunnybank-Moorooka especially comes to mind as it winds its way along Stable Swamp Creek and Rocky Waterholes Creek which pretty severely limits its usefulness as commuter rail for the southside (R1 anyone? ).

[#Metro]

I'd like to see R1 assessed against an improved Beenleigh line corridor.

If 120 km average train speed can be maintained between Park Road and Beenleigh, about 20 min raw travel time can be cut from GC services.

The key research question becomes which approach can best deliver that.

[AnonymouslyBad]

Seriously the rail line is in the completely wrong location here yet urban/population areas and commerical centres to the west are left with bus as the only public transport option.  The route between Beenleigh and Loganlea should be further to the west.  yes will cost more but also return more to thecommunity/tax-payer.

If the rail line followed close to Kingston Rd, it would probably be closer for more people, but the walk-up catchment is bad either way.
And then to do Waterford West you'd probably have to skip Loganlea, which would be a mistake.

IMO the only solution for this area is to encourage development around the rail corridor. I'd love to see it straightened a bit, but there's no such thing as a "good" alignment, given the topography and development patterns of the last 50 years. At least a station in the middle of nowhere has future potential - if it's in flood-prone stroad-land, that's all it will ever be

[Jonno]

Seriously the rail line is in the completely wrong location here yet urban/population areas and commerical centres to the west are left with bus as the only public transport option.  The route between Beenleigh and Loganlea should be further to the west.  yes will cost more but also return more to thecommunity/tax-payer.

If the rail line followed close to Kingston Rd, it would probably be closer for more people, but the walk-up catchment is bad either way.
And then to do Waterford West you'd probably have to skip Loganlea, which would be a mistake.

IMO the only solution for this area is to encourage development around the rail corridor. I'd love to see it straightened a bit, but there's no such thing as a "good" alignment, given the topography and development patterns of the last 50 years. At least a station in the middle of nowhere has future potential - if it's in flood-prone stroad-land, that's all it will ever be

The line follows a flood plain now so opportunities to intensify surrounding development are little to none.

Further west can still loop in Loganlea/Hospital maybe just not where it is today and the opportunities to develop around new station correctly is far far higher! Like majority of ststion in SEQ.

Not going to happen in our current political "your are spending previous freeway money on public transport?" landscape!!!

[ozbob]

https://cdn-au.mailsnd.com/467011/MqZUkq5R0RVS45AAqpV-KwpUU78LJDB_YXS8ZZGq2ZQ/1691645956/2884259.pdf

Project update August 2023

The Logan and Gold Coast Faster Rail project will upgrade the rail line between Kuraby and
Beenleigh stations, which is the next critical bottleneck to unlock to provide more frequent
train services between Brisbane, Logan and the Gold Coast.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1689766256319385609

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Fast, faster, farce? SEQ train spin goes off the rails $

Is it not just a little odd that the government's Logan and Gold Coast Faster Rail website does not address among its maps, graphics or 1500 glorifying words the project's most tantalising promise?

We can mosey online to learn any number of virtues, including the 20 kilometres of new track, the station upgrades, and the removal of five level-crossings. Indeed, the $2.6 billion mega-build, funded by the Queensland and federal governments, has been welcomed by rail advocates.

But what, exactly, do the bureaucrats mean by "Faster Rail"?

The capitalised title suggests something formal, or a widely accepted benchmark. Like how "Fast Rail" generally signifies speeds of 160-250km/h (depending on who you ask). Or how "High-Speed Rail" – the kind Japan has enjoyed for almost 60 years but which continues to elude this country – means anything beyond 250km/h.

"Faster Rail" is more murky – but it sounds so very shiny. ...

    

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1694357119825543490



ozbob is back in town ... we are not as silly as you think we are hey?    

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes front page 24th August 2023

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au

[#Metro]

According to the article, cars on the Pacific Motorway will be able to drive faster than the express train average speed, and that is before factoring in the frequency wait penalty of 15-min to 30-min that applies to Gold Coast Express trains.

Perth puts the train down the freeway, makes it fast as possible. Perth also runs trains every 15 minutes both directions all day, unlike in Queensland.

If the GC train line was put down the M1 and designed for 160 km train speed limit, it could potentially save ~ 20 min off a trip to Beenleigh rather than ~ 2 min this project offers.

Given the larger time saving, one would expect the BCR etc to look a lot better as well.

[achiruel]

DTMR needs to be honest about this project. It's a capacity improvement project, that's it. Saving a minute or two ≠ "faster rail'.

Although it might be faster for Logan commuters if Beenleigh trains run express north of Kuraby (and Coopers Plains services are extended). Not sure if that's in the plan, though.

[Stillwater]

The state government has hired a swag of spin doctors in the hope they can churn our yarns that make Anna and can look good. These people have their fingers in lots of pies ... 'Faster Rail' etc ... probably even in the QTMP fiasco. Attempting to manage the figures etc.

[ozbob]

The National Faster Rail Agency was a product of the previous Federal Government.  It was always going to cause confusion and was basically an attempt to look as though there were going to deliver fast rail, but really were not.  Queensland tacked it to the K2B upgrade (which is what it really should be called) with the Logan to Gold Coast faster rail bulldust name.

The incoming Federal Labor Govt did away with the NFRA because of the deception and confusion.



https://www.nfra.gov.au

National Faster Rail Agency

The NFRA was abolished on the 13 June 2023 with the existing scope and functions of the NFRA partially absorbed into the High Speed Rail Authority (HSRA) which was established on 13 June 2023 and remaining functions absorbed into the Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development, Communications and the Arts.

[ozbob]

The big risk with this project now is that it may not survive the razor gang.

If you recall RBoT made a substantial submission on this project, particularly how to make the outcomes truly a bit quicker and save some money around Beenleigh. 

Submission document --> https://backontrack.org/docs/gc/gcfasterrailRBoT22oct21.pdf  9.9MB

[Jonno]

According to the article, cars on the Pacific Motorway will be able to drive faster than the express train average speed, and that is before factoring in the frequency wait penalty of 15-min to 30-min that applies to Gold Coast Express trains.

Perth puts the train down the freeway, makes it fast as possible. Perth also runs trains every 15 minutes both directions all day, unlike in Queensland.

If the GC train line was put down the M1 and designed for 160 km train speed limit, it could potentially save ~ 20 min off a trip to Beenleigh rather than ~ 2 min this project offers.

Given the larger time saving, one would expect the BCR etc to look a lot better as well.

The bigger issue hete is that he M1 has been prioritised with false made-up BCR's and then rail is forced to compete with it!

This is the exact definition of "set up for failure"

Remember Engineers Australia noted

"There is little evidence to demonstrate increasing road capacity to reduce traffic congestion improves economic performance in cities"

And

"Increasing capacity for urban road networks induces demand & is a major reason for increased traffic"

Comparing rail to road as if it is a choice of two working alternatives ignores reality of road expansions!

[#Metro]

Time-Equivalence, Jonno.

If the motorway offers a faster trip most of the time, it will be the preferred mode. That will be the case whether you or I like it or otherwise.

Which explains why the Pacific motorway carries ~ 40 million trips/year while Gold Coast line carries ~ 5 million/year and Beenleigh carries another ~ 5 million/year on rail.

Accepting that allows us to suggest better alternatives, like rail that closes the time gap on the car.

Rail lines can be built to a standard that allows trains to travel 2x faster than cars. But we're not using this capability.

[RowBro]

Time-Equivalence, Jonno.

If the motorway offers a faster trip most of the time, it will be the preferred mode.

Which easily explains why it carries ~ 40 million trips/year while Gold Cosst carrries ~ 5 million/year and Beenleigh carries another ~ 5 million/year on rail.

Accepting that allows us to suggest better alternatives, like rail that closes the time gap on the car.

Rail lines can be built to a standard that allows trains to travel 2x faster than cars. But we're not using this capability.

You can get time equivalent rail while going along a corridor which will maximize walkup patronage, not reduce it. Perth's rail line down the highway may be fast, but its walk-up patronage is awful. That doesn't sound like 1st class transport to me.

[#Metro]

The analysis done in the design work for the Perth system suggested that stations built that way would struggle to get 500 pax/day from mostly a walk up catchment.

There are also plenty of rail stations in inner Perth that have frequent rail, been there for many decades, and have no TOD next to them.

See p20.


Application of a commuter railway to low density https://www.bitre.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-12/2009_infrastructure_colloquium_peter_martinovich.pdf

[RowBro]

The analysis done in the design work for the Perth system suggested that stations built that way would struggle to get 500 pax/day from mostly a walk up catchment.

There are also plenty of rail stations in inner Perth that have frequent rail, been there for many decades, and have no TOD next to them.

See p20.


Application of a commuter railway to low density https://www.bitre.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-12/2009_infrastructure_colloquium_peter_martinovich.pdf

You're not going to be building a TOD next to a highway.

[#Metro]

Plenty of other stations in Perth you can build TOD next to, if you wanted to.

Coming to think of it, the same is true for Brisbane as well. If the GC line went down the M1, it would still leave Beenleigh line trains on the existing rail alignment. TODs could be placed there, on that Beenleigh line alignment, for example.

There would also be TOD opportunity at Garden City/Mt Gravatt and Beenleigh. Might be good to map this to look into this more.

Re: Perth - might be worth reflecting on why TOD hasn't happened to any great extent around existing inner city stations like Karrakatta or Mt Lawley, which are all low density. Mt Lawley, for example, is just 8 min from Perth central. Is 8 min of travel time too long a length of time for TOD?

Can't be service frequency differences, as it's 15 min all day across the entire network.

[Jonno]

The analysis done in the design work for the Perth system suggested that stations built that way would struggle to get 500 pax/day from mostly a walk up catchment.

There are also plenty of rail stations in inner Perth that have frequent rail, been there for many decades, and have no TOD next to them.

See p20.


Application of a commuter railway to low density https://www.bitre.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-12/2009_infrastructure_colloquium_peter_martinovich.pdf

You're not going to be building a TOD next to a highway.

Freeway should be removed/converted to public transport only and only then the TOD (or as I call them "a Neighbourhood) built.

[Gazza]

Re: Perth - might be worth reflecting on why TOD hasn't happened to any great extent around existing inner city stations like Karrakatta

For others reading this thread, specifically Karrakatta has a major lawn cemetery on one side, and defense land on the other:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Montague+Partners/@-31.9674046,115.7897307,2489m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m15!1m8!3m7!1s0x2a32a516ef7bf171:0x504f0b535df5210!2sSubiaco+WA+6008!3b1!8m2!3d-31.9470195!4d115.8240278!16zL20vMDMyMmM1!3m5!1s0x2a32a53d92f738db:0xeee3c088502f5b6!8m2!3d-31.945462!4d115.8222568!16s%2Fg%2F1tdv9prm?entry=ttu

I think Subiaco has a great TOD though!
https://www.google.com/maps/@-31.9443965,115.8248217,3a,90y,222.46h,103.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRLFHinDWkodgJf7K_X-IIQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu