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Interview 2 August 2022 on ABC Brisbane Radio Drive host Steve Austin and Robert Dow RBoT

Topic: SEQ Rail Connect with reference to rail network changes

Interview here --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcdrive_rd_2aug22.mp3 MP3 25MB

ABC News --> Gold Coast, Beenleigh rail users face major changes as Brisbane's Cross River Rail network is revealed

QuoteRail commuters in Queensland's south-east face the most significant shake-up in decades after the state government outlined several route changes to integrate the $5.4 billion Cross River Rail network launch in 2025.

Key points:

South-east Queensland railway lines will be redrawn into three sectors that connect at Roma Street

Existing rail lines will be shifted to reconnect at new or upgraded stations

The Cross River Rail network is due to be in place well before Brisbane's 2032 Olympic Games

State Transport Minister Mark Bailey said the planned changes amounted to a "brand new network".

"This network will be a change for Queenslanders, but it will open the door for future investment and time-saving timetable changes to help Queenslanders get home sooner and safer," he said. ...

Brisbanetimes --> Extra express services for key routes under Cross River Rail overhaul

QuoteGold Coast, Caboolture and Ipswich commuters could benefit from all-day express railway services when the Cross River Rail overhaul begins in mid-2025, a rail analyst believes.

The new network and service schedules could also see more frequent and flexible connections in the inner city, boosted by new stations, running at least every 15 minutes between 7am and 7pm. ...

Brisbanetimes --> Gold Coast seething over Cross River Rail airport snub

QuoteDirect services between the Gold Coast and Queensland's busiest international airport will end when Cross River Rail becomes operational in 2025, and the mayor of the tourist mecca is not happy about it.

Express services to the Gold Coast have been a marketing staple for the privately owned Brisbane Airtrain since is started operations at the start of the century.

But Queensland Transport Minister Mark Bailey announced the Cross River Rail network configuration on Tuesday, and in the process confirmed Brisbane Airport would no longer directly link to the Gold Coast, one of the state's top tourism destinations.

Gold Coast Mayor Tom Tate, in Birmingham for the Commonwealth Games, woke up to the news late on Tuesday (AEST).

"Something isn't right when the two biggest cities in Queensland, with two major international airports, won't have a direct Airtrain service," he said.

Airtrain chief executive Chris Basche said direct services to the Gold Coast were an important part of its long-term deal with the Queensland government. ...

I actually agree with Gazza. Fly into OOL.

Yep. Or change trains, like pretty much every other city in the world!

There has been plenty of notice that the direct connection between BNE and Gold Coast would be broken with CRR.
That was the situation with CRR #1 way back in 2009.  Recently we have also informed the public that this connection would be broken with the new network to support CRR.  To act as though it is a surprise is frankly bulldust.

The rail planners are going to develop the best network to fit the circumstances.  I am sure the state would have considered what contracts are in place and their obligations (if any) to continue the direct link.

To operate Airtrain services via the Gold Coast in the new network as it presently will be structured would break sectorisation, restrict train paths and lead to loss of reliability.  I am sure all these factors were considered.

If Airtrain were prepared to fund flyovers etc. to make a seamless integration with the northern mains, and pay up for ETCS L2 implementation on the branch to the Airport then some direct services might be possible.  But I don't think that is going to occur.  Airtrain BOOT is up in 2036, probably not the time to cover the investment costs.

I think the posturing is see what they can get from the Government perhaps in ' compensation ' but again it will depend on the actual contracts, which we are not privy too.

It is not the end of the world for Airtrain.  They perhaps will need to focus from a Gold Coast centred approach to a whole of network view.   Life has its challenges for us all.

LinkedIn

One important thing to realise is that it would be a waste of tunnel capacity.
Let's face it, Airtrain gets low patronage.

Trains would get a few pax at domestic, international and EJ but you could imagine some unbalanced loads with Caboolture trains being full as they reach roma st meanwhile the following ex airport service would be pretty empty

^ another good point Gazza.

Quote from: RowBro on August 02, 2022, 21:44:17 PM

Quote from: kram0 on August 02, 2022, 21:37:44 PMCan't understand why Doomben services don't run to Park Road instead of Indro.

That would result in a loss of complete sectorisation since the Doomben trains would have to cross from the Ipswich/Springfield-Shorncliffe/Airport Sector to the Ferny-Clevelend Sector

I might be missing something here, but if the Doomben line was exclusive to Doomben-Park Road pairing every 30 min, this service would not leave the suburban tracks, and also provide additional services for South Bank/South Brisbane.

Airport and Shorncliffe lines will have to cross from suburban tracks to mains between Albion and Bowen Hills (presumably). So if Doomben were to stay on Subs, all OB Doomben services would create a conflict with these services crossing to/from the mains. I think that's what people are getting at.

The one thing missing from the SEQ Rail Connect was how to adapt the bus network to feed trains given the low density of SEQ.

Application of a commuter railway to low density settlement
https://www.bitre.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-12/2009_infrastructure_colloquium_peter_martinovich.pdf

Many of these locations need to have proper bus interchanges built - Indooroopilly, Coopers Plains, possibly some on the Sunshine Coast line as well (e.g. Virginia).

Quote from: kram0 on August 03, 2022, 09:27:17 AM

Quote from: RowBro on August 02, 2022, 21:44:17 PM

Quote from: kram0 on August 02, 2022, 21:37:44 PMCan't understand why Doomben services don't run to Park Road instead of Indro.

That would result in a loss of complete sectorisation since the Doomben trains would have to cross from the Ipswich/Springfield-Shorncliffe/Airport Sector to the Ferny-Clevelend Sector

I might be missing something here, but if the Doomben line was exclusive to Doomben-Park Road pairing every 30 min, this service would not leave the suburban tracks, and also provide additional services for South Bank/South Brisbane.

In the current configuration that would be true, however once CRR opens the Sub Track would effectively transfer over to the mains track just after Albion (where the CRR trains come off the main track) and just before Bowen Hills (where the Ferny Flyover joins) such that the Ferny Grove trains never interact with Airport/Shorncliffe/Doomben trains. The reason they'd do this is to ensure reliability as the more times trains have to cross paths the more likely delays are to propagate across lines. Thats not to say they wont be able to run such a service, it just seems unlikely due to the sectors they have envisioned.

Quote from: Cazza on August 03, 2022, 09:40:11 AMAirport and Shorncliffe lines will have to cross from suburban tracks to mains between Albion and Bowen Hills (presumably). So if Doomben were to stay on Subs, all OB Doomben services would create a conflict with these services crossing to/from the mains. I think that's what people are getting at.

Gahhh you beat me to it!

Quote from: #Metro on August 02, 2022, 22:13:40 PMCan the three tracks south of Dutton Park issue be fixed up?

I'm not across this one other than hearing that it's a problem.

Not without major resumptions (and potentially a second re-build of the stations).

Quote from: #Metro on August 03, 2022, 09:43:32 AMThe one thing missing from the SEQ Rail Connect was how to adapt the bus network to feed trains given the low density of SEQ.

Application of a commuter railway to low density settlement
https://www.bitre.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-12/2009_infrastructure_colloquium_peter_martinovich.pdf

Many of these locations need to have proper bus interchanges built - Indooroopilly, Coopers Plains, possibly some on the Sunshine Coast line as well (e.g. Virginia).

For what it's worth, the full SEQ Rail Connect document lists that there is budgeted funds for constructing new bus rail interchanges for Caboolture and Moorooka, sometime between now and 2026.

So it's possible that Moorooka would fill the role that you're suggesting for Coopers Plains.

There certainly should be more than 2 stations on that list though. I think Zillmere and Carseldine would be other good candidates

QuoteFor what it's worth, the full SEQ Rail Connect document lists that there is budgeted funds for constructing new bus rail interchanges for Caboolture and Moorooka, sometime between now and 2026.

So it's possible that Moorooka would fill the role that you're suggesting for Coopers Plains.

There certainly should be more than 2 stations on that list though. I think Zillmere and Carseldine would be other good candidates

Agreed. Lets add those to the list.

Moorooka is not a good substitute for Coopers Plains as BUZ 120 does not connect to it, so no link with buses that serve QE II and Griffith University without an interchange at Coopers Plains.

I'm sure this will be of interest.

SEQ Regional Transport Plan, P.111 (https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/regionaltransportplans):

Short Term Actions

A3.13 Public transport interchange and bus station upgrade planning
Undertake planning for public transport interchanges including bus and rail interchanges, bus stations, and bus stop upgrades in the region to improve network performance and connectivity at activity centres and interchange locations. Early priorities include bus-rail interchange studies at Altandi, Carseldine, Morningside, Bowen Hills, Chermside bus interchange study, and Toombul bus interchange.

How is the Springfield line going to operate?

Option A:
- 4 trains/hour to Shorncliffe starting at Springfield
- 2 trains/hour to Doomben starting at Indooroopilly

= roughly 10 minute trains all day from Indooroopilly through to Eagle Junction, eliminating the need for Ipswich Express trains to stop at Toowong or Milton (time saved for Ipswich passengers goes from 6 minutes to 10 minutes, in-vehicle time)

Option A means 15 minute frequency on the Shorncliffe line which is a good deal for a city the size of Brisbane. It also provides the best all-day connections for UQ via Indooroopilly and Toowong buses, and will take pressure off Route 412, 411 etc. and be the best going forward to feed buses into Indooroopilly station.

Option B:
- 2 trains/hour to Shorncliffe
- 2 trains/hour to Doomben starting at Springfield

= roughly 15 minute trains all day from Indooroopilly through to Eagle Junction.

Option B removes the awkward termination required at Indooroopilly and is more economical, but excludes improvements to the Shorncliffe line.

There is an Option C which is:
- Just terminate Doomben trains at Roma Street
- Run 4 trains/hour Springfield-Shorncliffe

Thoughts?? 

Good to finally see a bit more detail, thanks Ozbob for hassling them!

I think there is still some weirdness in the published track layouts south of Dutton Park - they are rebuilding the southern stations Salisbury to Fairfield to add a third platform for the dual gauge, presumably so that the middle road can be used for expresses, but there appears to be no connection from the dual gauge line into CRR. See these general layout plans:




There is also some weirdness in the PC9 design at Yeerongpilly, it appears to show the down sub and the dual gauge tracks effectively crossing over north of the platforms:



Does anyone understand how the three-track arrangement from Dutton Park south might work? Doesn't seem to make any sense from the PC9 plans. The revised Dutton Park station design does look different from the published PC9 plan (two platforms, on the eastern side of both the up sub and down sub), so perhaps there is a newer design which includes some crossovers between Fairfield and Dutton Park.

Quote from: #Metro on August 03, 2022, 10:24:00 AMMoorooka is not a good substitute for Coopers Plains as BUZ 120 does not connect to it, so no link with buses that serve QE II and Griffith University without an interchange at Coopers Plains.

But you're assuming the future BUZ network would be the same as today?

And the 120 Doesnt even go to coopers plains station!

What if there was part of a GCL type route that went from Moorooka to QEII and Griffith via Evans Rd?

QuoteBut you're assuming the future BUZ network would be the same as today?

No, I'm not.

QuoteAnd the 120 Doesnt even go to coopers plains station!

See preceding statement.

All dealt with here:

Coopers Plains Level Crossing Removal and Bus Services
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=14682.msg259709#msg259709

Yes but the idea of sending the 120 to Coopers was just an RBOT idea in response to the LX removal project, its not actually government policy.

In the long term it doesn't make sense to build Coopers plains as a major interchange because Flagstone trains wont stop there.

Whereas if you move the bus interchange a couple of stations north and do the governments idea of Moorooka (And feed routes there) you get the advantage of double frequency between Beenleigh and Flagstone trains and more possible destinations.
(presumably someone from Flagstone or Algester might want to get to Griffith for example?)

Did you consider these advantages of Moorooka?

***
Presumably you could have also had a major bus interchange at Salisbury, Rocklea instead, but i think they suffer from not being on a main road or flood prone / isolated industrial zones.

QuoteYes but the idea of sending the 120 to Coopers was just an RBOT idea in response to the LX removal project, its not actually government policy.

It's already sent to TMR & TransLink.

It makes sense to build an interchange at Coopers Plains, even a modest one, as the station is already 15 minute trains right now and the changes required to Route 120 are minimal.

I would also add that Moorooka is emerging as a hub that will see major future redevelopment, as the car yards slowly start pushed off the Magic Mile. Locating a major interchange at Moorooka does make a lot more sense when looking forward, than having one at Coopers Plains.

QuoteI would also add that Moorooka is emerging as a hub that will see major future redevelopment, as the car yards slowly start pushed off the Magic Mile. Locating a major interchange at Moorooka does make a lot more sense when looking forward, than having one at Coopers Plains.

What does the supporting future bus network look like for Moorooka?

There are a lot of buses that can connect to Coopers Plains under a new network (see image in previous post)

Edit: this is the flood map for around Moorooka Station.

Whole thing is within the flood zone. Unlikely to be used for residential for this reason (I expect that these zones will likely be revised upwards given recent flooding and rain events)

No such issue for Coopers Plains.

http://floodinformation.brisbane.qld.gov.au/fio/

QuoteIt's already sent to TMR & TransLink.

So how come TMR are saying Moorooka despite you telling them it needs to be Coopers Plains in the email?

Coopers Plains can be done now, with the benefits realised in 12-24 months post BCC-bus review. The car park can be reclaimed and a lane made to Beaton Street. It would be pretty modest in terms of interchanges.

It is low-hanging fruit and doesn't prevent an interchange going in at Moorooka at some point (say 10 or 20 years later when Flagstone might be built)

There are a lot of uncertainties over precisely when Flagstone line et al will be built. E.g.
- was raised over 11 years ago
- has an open ended indefinite time frame
- has no complete business case
- has no funding allocated
- No track has been laid and no station locations finalised

We need something that is going to work now for passengers using the Beenleigh line and just want to get to Griffith Uni, work at QEII hospital, or Garden City.

And there will always exist a need for some buses to connect at Coopers Plains.

Here is an article from 11 years ago discussing Flagstone railway line.

Planning for new south-west rail begins (2010)
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/planning-for-new-southwest-rail-begins-20100901-14l24.html

QuotePremier Anna Bligh said the government was moving to the next phase of planning for a double-track passenger rail line from Salisbury to Beaudesert to service the south-west growth corridor.

As part of this change, Eagle Junction needs a substantial upgrade.

QuoteSo how come TMR are saying Moorooka despite you telling them it needs to be Coopers Plains?

Gazza, please direct your enquiry about TMR to the relevant authorities. Thank you.

Quote from: kram0 on August 03, 2022, 13:49:49 PMAs part of this change, Eagle Junction needs a substantial upgrade.

Absolutely. Such a major station (express service wise) should definitely at least have some sort of a bus station and should have some more bus service. Another one that needs looking at is Northgate seeing as it is the last station that the Sunshine Coast trains stop at before running express to Petrie (or Strathpine in the future network which is still a substantial gap) and is far enough away from the city for more feeder style services to become viable.

Does anyone have any thoughts as to what Translink will do to transition from the old network to the new one?

There was quite a lot ot talk in the document about having a transition period, but no elaboration beyond that.

Quote from: RowBro on August 03, 2022, 15:05:30 PM

Quote from: kram0 on August 03, 2022, 13:49:49 PMAs part of this change, Eagle Junction needs a substantial upgrade.

Absolutely. Such a major station (express service wise) should definitely at least have some sort of a bus station and should have some more bus service. Another one that needs looking at is Northgate seeing as it is the last station that the Sunshine Coast trains stop at before running express to Petrie (or Strathpine in the future network which is still a substantial gap) and is far enough away from the city for more feeder style services to become viable.

Apart from being a 'junction' station (where transfer to/from the Airport and Doomben lines is considerably low- less than 1% of passengers from these spurs) and connections to some form of cross town bus route (which could be done at Toombul), what does Eagle Junction actually provide that say, expresses stopping at Albion instead can't?

Albion is the last station before the trains split between via CRR and via Central, is primely positioned next to a key junction in north-south and east-west arterial roads and has a massive amount of land set aside for a new TOD, plus an already fairly established suburban commercial centre.

I do ask because I wonder whether it might be a good opportunity to switch the status quo express stopping patterns from Northgate and EJ (being just junction stations with little going for them in terms of urban development and strategic importance in the scheme of the network) and shift the express stops to Nundah or Toombul and Albion.

These stations already have existing and considerable urban growth planned and are next to existing/future key bus interchange points. They provide direct connections to core cross-town bus routes at Toombul (in which Cab/SC/Redcliffe trains run straight past) and allow for an easy transfer onto direct bus services via the APL to RBWH and INB (which definitely needs more than what the hourly 310 provides).

Nundah Village is definitely an area that seems to be overlooked at times, considering its substantial medium-to-high density built form and demographics living nearby.

Just some food for thought before we start putting support behind something without looking to further the benefits of an improved rail network.

Quote from: Cazza on August 03, 2022, 15:30:44 PMApart from being a 'junction' station (where transfer to/from the Airport and Doomben lines is considerably low- less than 1% of passengers from these spurs) and connections to some form of cross town bus route (which could be done at Toombul), what does Eagle Junction actually provide that say, expresses stopping at Albion instead can't?

Albion is the last station before the trains split between via CRR and via Central, is primely positioned next to a key junction in north-south and east-west arterial roads and has a massive amount of land set aside for a new TOD, plus an already fairly established suburban commercial centre.

I do ask because I wonder whether it might be a good opportunity to switch the status quo express stopping patterns from Northgate and EJ (being just junction stations with little going for them in terms of urban development and strategic importance in the scheme of the network) and shift the express stops to Nundah or Toombul and Albion.

These stations already have existing and considerable urban growth planned and are next to existing/future key bus interchange points. They provide direct connections to core cross-town bus routes at Toombul (in which Cab/SC/Redcliffe trains run straight past) and allow for an easy transfer onto direct bus services via the APL to RBWH and INB (which definitely needs more than what the hourly 310 provides).

Nundah Village is definitely an area that seems to be overlooked at times, considering its substantial medium-to-high density built form and demographics living nearby.

Just some food for thought before we start putting support behind something without looking to further the benefits of an improved rail network.

That is definitely food for thought. I had just taken for granted that Eagle Junction *is* the express stopper station, especially since the new network diagrams don't even have Albion as a stop for CRR express services. One thing that EJ has that Albion does not is it's proximity to the local Schools (Eagle Junction mostly, plus Kedron), although since most students don't travel too far for school, they probably wouldn't be catching express trains often anyways.

I think Airtrain would be even less happy if you forced their customers to transfer further away than EJ for trains going Northbound. Even though it is a small proportion of travelers and it is only a couple stations further to travel, it would have an effect when you consider the long trips they would have already taken/are about to take.

It would be good to hear some other opinions regarding the matter, however perhaps we should move it over to a new thread.

QuoteAlbion is the last station before the trains split between via CRR and via Central, is primely positioned next to a key junction in north-south and east-west arterial roads and has a massive amount of land set aside for a new TOD, plus an already fairly established suburban commercial centre.

These are good points. And the Olympics venue is going at Albion as well, so there will need to be station access as well. Might need a bus interchange too.

Another one for the list.

On the subject of an interchange between the northern lines, I still think that every train should stop at Albion because:
 
1. Eagle Junction is vastly less equipped for being a busy interchange.  Albion in its current form is not perfect but it would probably take a lot more to fix that issue at EJ.  Albion on the other hand is already going to be the subject of a significant upgrade in the near future as part of the TOD being developed.

2. The TOD and existing pattern of settlement around Albion make for stronger local patronage than anything existing or planned for Eagle Junction.

3. If you make the interchange Eagle Junction, you bake in perpetual unfairness for Wooloowin and Albion passengers who can't get trains to Exhibition without having to backtrack from Roma Street.  They will of course have to interchange anyway, and it won't be a same platform transfer, but better to not have to go way off course to achieve it.  There is unlikely to be a convenient bus that could replace these trips given the road network layout, without again inflicting another transfer.

Open question as to whether all trains should stop at Eagle Junction also.  I think you would be disadvantaging fewer passengers if Eagle Junction is not served by Sector 1 trains versus Albion being the stop missed, but there would still be some.

So does Cooper's Plains even need an "interchange" if its just the one route?
Could it be a premium stop shelter?

Quote from: ozbob on August 03, 2022, 00:42:03 AMInterview 2 August 2022 on ABC Brisbane Radio Drive host Steve Austin and Robert Dow RBoT

Topic: SEQ Rail Connect with reference to rail network changes

Interview here --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcdrive_rd_2aug22.mp3 MP3 25MB

Interview 3 August 2022 ABC Gold Coast Radio Mornings Host Sally Rope and Robert Dow RBoT

Topic: Changes to the rail network with CRR and the Gold Coast

Interview here --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcgc/abcgc_rd_3aug22.mp3 MP3 8.8MB

Some interesting comments from Mayor Tom Tate towards the end of the segment.