RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Just another indicator of how active and public transport users and regional rail/foresight rail is treated as second if not third rate citizen!

BrizCommuter: Cross River Rail - Mayne Capacity Constraints

https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2020/06/cross-river-rail-mayne-capacity.html

27 June 2020

" ... Why are the proposed rail operations for Cross River Rail being kept a secret? Surely this is one of the most crucial parts of a project that is designed to increase rail capacity?  ... "

BrizCommuter: Cross River Rail - Mayne Capacity Constraints

https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2020/06/cross-river-rail-mayne-capacity.html

27 June 2020

" ... Why are the proposed rail operations for Cross River Rail being kept a secret? Surely this is one of the most crucial parts of a project that is designed to increase rail capacity?  ... "

====


" ...
4.  They know the project outcomes will not match the political spin promises made so far and wish to minimise the harsh feedback period
(surprise! It will make it worse IMHO).
... "

Quote from: Jonno on June 07, 2022, 07:35:25 AMDefinitely 4. As this is how transport planning is done in SEQ! Suggest project, market/sell project for political purpose, project not linked to any type of network capacity assessment or design!

Yep, I think this why there is silence on the operational aspects.

Retweeted ..

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1533159775482957825

Been booked for an interview with ABC Brisbane Drive at 4:30pm 13th June 2022.

Subject: "CRR Rail network when it opens and what we know so far?"

I will point out as able, that Queensland is the only jurisdiction that has not made this information publicly available in a timely manner, for similar large scale rail projects.  For example, Melbourne's Metro Tunnel which completes in 2025, the same year as CRR completes, has the all the details of how the network will be, including individual line diagrams - see https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/metro-tunnel/about/overview/benefits-for-your-train-line and has been available for years ...

Good Morning      and 

The day of reckoning nears ...   

Quote from: ozbob on June 28, 2020, 04:26:58 AMTo:

info@crossriverrail.qld.gov.au

cc:

community@crossriverrail.qld.gov.au
Transport@ministerial.qld.gov.au
statedevelopment@ministerial.qld.gov.au
Queensland Rail CEO

CRR rail service plan

28th June 2020

Greetings,

Could you please advise where we can locate the current operational train service plan for Cross River Rail?

Members of RAIL Back On Track are concerned with the lack of details available on how the SEQ rail network will operate when CRR is commissioned.  Recent forum discussion is at https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2034.msg237086#msg237086

A recent blog post by BrizCommuter: Cross River Rail - Mayne Capacity Constraints
https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2020/06/cross-river-rail-mayne-capacity.html

raises a number of concerns:

Why was the grade separated junction at Mayne for Mains/CRR tracks removed from the plans?

Why are the proposed rail operations for Cross River Rail being kept a secret? Surely this is one of the most crucial parts of a project that is designed to increase rail capacity?

Why is there no mention of the track layout changes at Mayne in the Request for Project Change 7? Is the Coordinator-General even aware of these changes?

What are the long term plans for connecting Cross River Rail to the Trouts Road Line / North West Transportation Corridor, and is this route safeguarded for rail transport?

As a member commented recently " Most of the (CRR) social media is of glossy pictures of stations, and focussing on station design at the expense of good operational planning is a very literal case of mistaking the destination for the journey. "

What are the current proposals for am peak, pm peak, counter peak and daytime off-peak rail service patterns?

Thank you.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

 

Inteview completed.  Steve Austin was unable to do his show today so Terri Begley was the host.

Hopefully I can get the interview tomorrow. I managed to get the main points out there.

There is nothing stopping the immediate disclosure of the sectorisation and broad train service plans.

Thanks ABC for your interest.

Quote from: ozbob on June 13, 2022, 05:54:20 AMBeen booked for an interview with ABC Brisbane Drive at 4:30pm 13th June 2022.

Subject: "CRR Rail network when it opens and what we know so far?"

I will point out as able, that Queensland is the only jurisdiction that has not made this information publicly available in a timely manner, for similar large scale rail projects.  For example, Melbourne's Metro Tunnel which completes in 2025, the same year as CRR completes, has the all the details of how the network will be, including individual line diagrams - see https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/metro-tunnel/about/overview/benefits-for-your-train-line and has been available for years ...

Interview on ABC Brisbane Radio Drive 13th June 2022 Host Terri Begley with Robert Dow RBoT

Topic Citytrain Network when CRR is in use (2025).

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcdrive_rd_13jun22.mp3 MP3 13.7 MB

Sent to all outlets:

Time for the Premier to act on Cross River Rail Train service plans disclosure

14th June 2022

Good Morning,

For your information:

Interview on ABC Brisbane Radio Drive 13th June 2022 Host Terri Begley with Robert Dow RAIL Back On Track

Topic Citytrain Network when CRR is in use (2025).

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcdrive_rd_13jun22.mp3 MP3 13.7 MB

Frankly, the lack of disclosure by the Government and its agencies on how the SEQ Citytrain Network will be structured when Cross River Rail is in use is now just a huge embarrassment for an Olympic City, and a gross failure in decency and transparency.  At the end of the interview Terri Begley reads out a statement from ' TransLink ' to the effect that timetables will be released closer to the opening time.

We are not asking for ' timetables ' and the Government and its agencies know it.  All we want is the sectorisation and train service plans, which other jurisdictions are able to provide for equivalent scale rail projects a lot further from project completion than 3 years.

Why the lack of disclosure with Cross River Rail?  It appears that there is something to hide frankly.

We call on the Premier to direct the Minister for Transport to organise the release of the information sought forthwith.

Thank you.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Attached:  https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=259065

Facebook ...

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1536415825519079425

LinkedIn

Sent to all outlets:

Re: Time for the Premier to act on Cross River Rail Train service plans disclosure

15th June 2022

Good Morning,

No response yet.  Is this the reason why train service plans are being hidden is because this project is not going to deliver the outcomes that are spun politically?  Can we add Cross River Rail to the growing list of rail fails in SEQ ?  Show us otherwise.  Silence confirms failure.

We are tired of the lack of transparency, spin and obfuscation in Queensland. Other states get it right.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on June 14, 2022, 00:37:41 AMSent to all outlets:

Time for the Premier to act on Cross River Rail Train service plans disclosure

14th June 2022

Good Morning,

For your information:

Interview on ABC Brisbane Radio Drive 13th June 2022 Host Terri Begley with Robert Dow RAIL Back On Track

Topic Citytrain Network when CRR is in use (2025).

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcdrive_rd_13jun22.mp3 MP3 13.7 MB

Frankly, the lack of disclosure by the Government and its agencies on how the SEQ Citytrain Network will be structured when Cross River Rail is in use is now just a huge embarrassment for an Olympic City, and a gross failure in decency and transparency.  At the end of the interview Terri Begley reads out a statement from ' TransLink ' to the effect that timetables will be released closer to the opening time.

We are not asking for ' timetables ' and the Government and its agencies know it.  All we want is the sectorisation and train service plans, which other jurisdictions are able to provide for equivalent scale rail projects a lot further from project completion than 3 years.

Why the lack of disclosure with Cross River Rail?  It appears that there is something to hide frankly.

We call on the Premier to direct the Minister for Transport to organise the release of the information sought forthwith.

Thank you.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Attached:  https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=259065

There is an issue with Cross River Rail. Study the track layouts and it becomes clear that they have created a limited capacity gain network.  If they go for some cross sector running the trains per hour will drop significantly.  Adopt strict sectorisation then Airtrain is probably not going to the Gold Coast for starters. 

Gold Coast express trains are going to be slowed particularly contra peak.

Why is it that rail projects lately in Queensland generally end up as half baked fuk ups!

We had a good project in 2009.  Successive political iterations have produced not much now. 

No wonder IA wanted the business case redone.

https://twitter.com/BrisAirtrain/status/1536810972169617409

Change at Roma St ...

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1537493274461900800

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1537501866426531840

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1538333377841233921

Sent to all outlets:

20th June 2022

Re: Time for the Premier to act on Cross River Rail Train service plans disclosure

Good Morning,

So the first 50 metres of railway track has been done in Cross River Rail.  An important milestone, congratulations!
( https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/3-5b-to-be-spent-on-queensland-rail-projects-in-state-budget-20220619-p5auuk.html )

However, do you think the authorities don't know how the network is going to operate?  Working out the rail network sectorisation and general operation proceeds construction.  The lack of transparency by the authorities with respect to Cross River Rail and the SEQ Citytrain network form when CRR is in use is NOT acceptable by any measure.

A reminder, Melbourne has such information available for their rail network when their Metro Tunnel is in use in 2025, the same year as Cross River Rail will be in use ( https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/metro-tunnel/about/overview/benefits-for-your-train-line ). Melbourne has had the information available for years too. Victoria treats its citizens with courtesy and respect.

The lack of transparency here in Queensland suggests an operational outcome for Cross River Rail that will be somewhat less than spun by the State Government.

Show us the truth please.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on June 15, 2022, 00:53:54 AMSent to all outlets:

Re: Time for the Premier to act on Cross River Rail Train service plans disclosure

15th June 2022

Good Morning,

No response yet.  Is this the reason why train service plans are being hidden is because this project is not going to deliver the outcomes that are spun politically?  Can we add Cross River Rail to the growing list of rail fails in SEQ ?  Show us otherwise.  Silence confirms failure.

We are tired of the lack of transparency, spin and obfuscation in Queensland. Other states get it right.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on June 14, 2022, 00:37:41 AMSent to all outlets:

Time for the Premier to act on Cross River Rail Train service plans disclosure

14th June 2022

Good Morning,

For your information:

Interview on ABC Brisbane Radio Drive 13th June 2022 Host Terri Begley with Robert Dow RAIL Back On Track

Topic Citytrain Network when CRR is in use (2025).

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcdrive_rd_13jun22.mp3 MP3 13.7 MB

Frankly, the lack of disclosure by the Government and its agencies on how the SEQ Citytrain Network will be structured when Cross River Rail is in use is now just a huge embarrassment for an Olympic City, and a gross failure in decency and transparency.  At the end of the interview Terri Begley reads out a statement from ' TransLink ' to the effect that timetables will be released closer to the opening time.

We are not asking for ' timetables ' and the Government and its agencies know it.  All we want is the sectorisation and train service plans, which other jurisdictions are able to provide for equivalent scale rail projects a lot further from project completion than 3 years.

Why the lack of disclosure with Cross River Rail?  It appears that there is something to hide frankly.

We call on the Premier to direct the Minister for Transport to organise the release of the information sought forthwith.

Thank you.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Attached:  https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=259065

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1538581507211956226

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1538592287328194560

Sent to all outlets:

Ferny Grove - Cleveland line diagram when Cross River Rail is commissioned

25th June 2022

Good Morning,

As we indicated on the 7th June 2022 (see below) " We are considering doing up line diagrams for our lines here in SEQ " when Cross River rail is in use. We have now released our first line diagram - Ferny Grove and Cleveland line pair.



https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=259899

In absence of any such information on how the SEQ Citytrain network will operate we have commenced doing up our own line diagrams, similar to what has been available for years for the Melbourne Metro Tunnel.  We will progressively release these as we want the Queensland community to know that there will be changes, and how the changes will affect them. Some of these changes will be positive, but continuing to hide behind the cloak of non transparency is appalling, even for Queensland, the secret state!

RAIL Back On Track members have compiled these diagrams using the available public documents.
They are not ' official ' and are subject to changes.  Nevertheless, they are a good guide as to what to expect.

Again we call on the Premier to direct the Minister for Transport to ensure that information of the standard that is available for the Melbourne Metro Tunnel (see https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/metro-tunnel/about/overview/benefits-for-your-train-line  ) be published forthwith.

Thank you.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on June 15, 2022, 00:53:54 AMSent to all outlets:

Re: Time for the Premier to act on Cross River Rail Train service plans disclosure

15th June 2022

Good Morning,

No response yet.  Is this the reason why train service plans are being hidden is because this project is not going to deliver the outcomes that are spun politically?  Can we add Cross River Rail to the growing list of rail fails in SEQ ?  Show us otherwise.  Silence confirms failure.

We are tired of the lack of transparency, spin and obfuscation in Queensland. Other states get it right.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on June 14, 2022, 00:37:41 AMSent to all outlets:

Time for the Premier to act on Cross River Rail Train service plans disclosure

14th June 2022

Good Morning,

For your information:

Interview on ABC Brisbane Radio Drive 13th June 2022 Host Terri Begley with Robert Dow RAIL Back On Track

Topic Citytrain Network when CRR is in use (2025).

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcdrive_rd_13jun22.mp3 MP3 13.7 MB

Frankly, the lack of disclosure by the Government and its agencies on how the SEQ Citytrain Network will be structured when Cross River Rail is in use is now just a huge embarrassment for an Olympic City, and a gross failure in decency and transparency.  At the end of the interview Terri Begley reads out a statement from ' TransLink ' to the effect that timetables will be released closer to the opening time.

We are not asking for ' timetables ' and the Government and its agencies know it.  All we want is the sectorisation and train service plans, which other jurisdictions are able to provide for equivalent scale rail projects a lot further from project completion than 3 years.

Why the lack of disclosure with Cross River Rail?  It appears that there is something to hide frankly.

We call on the Premier to direct the Minister for Transport to organise the release of the information sought forthwith.

Thank you.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Attached:  https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=259065

Facebook ...

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1540496372691980288

Shame shame shame!  A Government in disarray.  A shambles hiding behind the cloak of non-transparency! 

Got that     

This possible track pair could be Springfield - Airport, and Rosewood - Ipswich paired with Shorncliffe.  It matters little, operationally much the same.

Trains travelling from Ipswich travel through the CBD on the central mains and then after Bowen Hills go onto the northern suburbans. Trains from the CRR tunnel go onto the northern mains (Gold coast, Beenleigh, Kippa-Ring, Caboolture, and Nambour services will use the mains, hence the CRR tunnel(s)).

Shorncliffe, Airport, Doomben, Ipswich, and Springfield will use the central mains, Cleveland and Ferny Grove will use the central suburbans. 

Facebook ...

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1540866200816611328

A song for the     

Hope you enjoy it?    

Sent to all outlets:

Rosewood - Ipswich and Airport line diagram when Cross River Rail is commissioned.

26th June 2022

RAIL Back On Track members have done a lot of research on the documents available publicly that relate to Cross River Rail (CRR) to attempt to discern how the SEQ Citytrain network will be structured operationally- sectorisation, line pairs and the like, when CRR is in use.  The Queensland Government wants to keep it a secret. Information of the standard that is available for the Melbourne Metro Tunnel (see https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/metro-tunnel/about/overview/benefits-for-your-train-line  ) should be available for Cross River Rail.  Both projects are commissioned in 2025. In the absence of such information in Queensland we will therefore attempt to fill in a few gaps.

We have now released our second line diagram.

All the reference documents are listed our forum at https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=14277.0
This possible track pair could be Springfield - Airport, and Rosewood - Ipswich could be paired with Shorncliffe.  It matters little, operationally much the same.



Trains travelling from Ipswich travel through the CBD on the central mains and then after Bowen Hills go onto the northern suburbans. Trains from the CRR tunnel go onto the northern mains (Gold coast, Beenleigh, Kippa-Ring, Caboolture, and Nambour services will use the northern mains, hence the CRR tunnels).

Shorncliffe, Airport, Doomben, Ipswich, and Springfield will use the central mains, Cleveland and Ferny Grove will use the central suburbans.  It is the track layouts north and south of the tunnel that determine the sectorisation.

There will be additional short run services on the network as there is today, to provide frequency throughout the core network.

With respect to SEQ Citytrain network when CRR is commissioned (below):
Line pairings within a sector could be different, the sector names could be different, but the overall sectorisation (groups) are probably as stated.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on June 25, 2022, 08:37:32 AMSent to all outlets:

Ferny Grove - Cleveland line diagram when Cross River Rail is commissioned

25th June 2022

Good Morning,

As we indicated on the 7th June 2022 (see below) " We are considering doing up line diagrams for our lines here in SEQ " when Cross River rail is in use. We have now released our first line diagram - Ferny Grove and Cleveland line pair.



https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=259899

In absence of any such information on how the SEQ Citytrain network will operate we have commenced doing up our own line diagrams, similar to what has been available for years for the Melbourne Metro Tunnel.  We will progressively release these as we want the Queensland community to know that there will be changes, and how the changes will affect them. Some of these changes will be positive, but continuing to hide behind the cloak of non transparency is appalling, even for Queensland, the secret state!

RAIL Back On Track members have compiled these diagrams using the available public documents.
They are not ' official ' and are subject to changes.  Nevertheless, they are a good guide as to what to expect.

Again we call on the Premier to direct the Minister for Transport to ensure that information of the standard that is available for the Melbourne Metro Tunnel (see https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/metro-tunnel/about/overview/benefits-for-your-train-line  ) be published forthwith.

Thank you.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Why not operate the Doomben Line as a branch of another Line (maybe airport)?
It seems too insignificant to operate as its own line terminating at Roma St.

^ On Saturdays it mostly starts and finishes at Park Road at present.

During the week most services start and terminate at Roma St, few Park Road and further out.

The Doomben trains will be coming through on the central mains when CRR is in use.  So I guess it depends on how much they can wear in terms of crossing conflicts how useful it will be past Roma St.

The other option I don't often see discussed but could work well on a higher capacity network is running branch Lines like doomben and shorncliffe as a shuttle. With a bit of effort well timed cross platform transfers could be possible but that's another project and won't be happening to coincide with CRR.

Peak hour terminators are due to positioning movements. Most park road terminators run dead back to Maine via Tennyson. These airport-park road services normally cross just after inbound Cleveland services. Park road terminators also run that way due to timing to clear Roma street as some following Roma street terminators run via the western subs and require a cross (has minimal delays due to the speed differences).

CRR Sector: Gold Coast - Sunshine Coast



====

CRR Sector:  Beenleigh - Kippa-Ring

Facebook ...

Sent to all outlets:

Cross River Rail sector line diagrams

27th June 2022

Greetings,

RAIL Back On Track has released a further set of line diagrams for the Cross River Rail sector of the SEQ Citytrain network when the tunnels are commissioned, that is in regular use.

Gold Coast - Sunshine Coast, and Beenleigh - Kippa-Ring lines.



================================



https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=259941

We have now released representative line diagrams from each of the three sectors.  All this is unofficial of course, but highlights the lack of transparency by the Queensland State Government with respect to the project.

Surely the army of spin doctors paid for by Queensland citizens can produce something similar?

Sadly, it is left to public transport advocacy group volunteers to do the right thing by Queenslanders.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on June 26, 2022, 12:09:07 PMSent to all outlets:

Rosewood - Ipswich and Airport line diagram when Cross River Rail is commissioned.

26th June 2022

RAIL Back On Track members have done a lot of research on the documents available publicly that relate to Cross River Rail (CRR) to attempt to discern how the SEQ Citytrain network will be structured operationally- sectorisation, line pairs and the like, when CRR is in use.  The Queensland Government wants to keep it a secret. Information of the standard that is available for the Melbourne Metro Tunnel (see https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/metro-tunnel/about/overview/benefits-for-your-train-line  ) should be available for Cross River Rail.  Both projects are commissioned in 2025. In the absence of such information in Queensland we will therefore attempt to fill in a few gaps.

We have now released our second line diagram.

All the reference documents are listed our forum at https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=14277.0
This possible track pair could be Springfield - Airport, and Rosewood - Ipswich could be paired with Shorncliffe.  It matters little, operationally much the same.



Trains travelling from Ipswich travel through the CBD on the central mains and then after Bowen Hills go onto the northern suburbans. Trains from the CRR tunnel go onto the northern mains (Gold coast, Beenleigh, Kippa-Ring, Caboolture, and Nambour services will use the northern mains, hence the CRR tunnels).

Shorncliffe, Airport, Doomben, Ipswich, and Springfield will use the central mains, Cleveland and Ferny Grove will use the central suburbans.  It is the track layouts north and south of the tunnel that determine the sectorisation.

There will be additional short run services on the network as there is today, to provide frequency throughout the core network.

With respect to SEQ Citytrain network when CRR is commissioned (below):
Line pairings within a sector could be different, the sector names could be different, but the overall sectorisation (groups) are probably as stated.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on June 25, 2022, 08:37:32 AMSent to all outlets:

Ferny Grove - Cleveland line diagram when Cross River Rail is commissioned

25th June 2022

Good Morning,

As we indicated on the 7th June 2022 (see below) " We are considering doing up line diagrams for our lines here in SEQ " when Cross River rail is in use. We have now released our first line diagram - Ferny Grove and Cleveland line pair.



https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=259899

In absence of any such information on how the SEQ Citytrain network will operate we have commenced doing up our own line diagrams, similar to what has been available for years for the Melbourne Metro Tunnel.  We will progressively release these as we want the Queensland community to know that there will be changes, and how the changes will affect them. Some of these changes will be positive, but continuing to hide behind the cloak of non transparency is appalling, even for Queensland, the secret state!

RAIL Back On Track members have compiled these diagrams using the available public documents.
They are not ' official ' and are subject to changes.  Nevertheless, they are a good guide as to what to expect.

Again we call on the Premier to direct the Minister for Transport to ensure that information of the standard that is available for the Melbourne Metro Tunnel (see https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/metro-tunnel/about/overview/benefits-for-your-train-line  ) be published forthwith.

Thank you.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1541311408092041216

Single web page 

All RBoT possible network diagrams together on a single web page.

> https://railbotforum.org/lines/index.html

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1541555223675604992

====