RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: #Metro on June 21, 2021, 08:56:08 AM

QuoteI'd say it goes beyond "inconvenience". As I've mentioned before, the boardings at Tenerife Ferry and at Skyring Tce near Cunningham St (i.e. at Gasworks) - just two stops - add up to the total boardings on the ENTIRE 300... plus another 40%.

Actually, if you take away the City and Valley boardings from the 300, the Gasworks stop alone does more than the remainder of the 300.

What's stopping them walking 250 m around the corner and catching either Gold or Blue CityGliders at 2x the frequency?

As for Bulimba - just a reflection of the lack of a BulimbaGlider really.

Because if you shift the stop you shift the catchment area so you'd be pulling service from an area that is very high performance.
Remember people will be walking from beyond the stop to reach it, so you could well be making someones 800m walk into a 1050m walk.

Particularly at the ferry stop, people are choosing the Glider over the 199, what does that tell you?

Well, even if everyone who gets the ferry or the CityCat across the river then hops on the Glider, that's only about 2/3 the boardings there; what's left over is still 10% of the 300 and needs serving.

Also, while the inbound walk from Gasworks to Riverpark might be 250m, the reverse is 400m - and that's just to the bus stop, not including whatever the walk was to actually get to the Gasworks stop in the first place, probably up to another 400m.

Let's be real here: this is BCC. They're not going to get rid of the 300 when they bring in the gold glider. They're just not. So let's make sure that they work together properly.

Loss aversion.
New stop would be high performance too.

QuoteWell, even if everyone who gets the ferry or the CityCat across the river then hops on the Glider, that's only about 2/3 the boardings there; what's left over is still 10% of the 300 and needs serving.

IIRC that stop has moved before. The bus went down commercial Rd, a resident didn't like it and petitioned BCC to move it, which they did.

BCC amalgamated 190 191 into 199 and 193 and 194 and 197 into 196. This is how those BUZ services formed over time. Its possible.
And with a new head of TL who actually understands bus reform Sally Stannard, it's possible.

Quote from: #Metro on June 21, 2021, 09:21:09 AM
Loss aversion.
New stop would be high performance too.

#Metro the reality of the geography of the area is that we have two new rapidly growing high density areas where the core is "off" the Wickham St / KSD axis.
Designing routes that miss the cores in the pursuit of hard nosed "efficiency" is not the right choice.

The area is dense enough to warrant a route to each, and yeah they'll overlap for 2km through the valley and city, boo hoo that's hardly the worst place for duplication.....

Quote from: #Metro on June 21, 2021, 08:32:00 AM
Gold CityGlider (click image to enlarge)

- There is a need for bus layover capacity within South Brisbane/Wooloongabba area generally. Possibly also near RBWH to capture Valley terminating services (they terminate in the Valley because that's what the tram did in 1969 with the Light St Depot IMHO). Buses need to sit around somewhere after they terminate at Cultural Centre. Wooloongabba is good as it would connect with CRR. However, a new depot at South Brisbane/West End would also work well as there are plenty of large industrial sites in that area.

Is the bus layover that exists currently at Woolloongabba station not good enough? Is there enough buses terminating there that really warrants its own depot?
Buses terminating at CC from the north also use the little turnaround bit in front of the State Library as a short layover. Obviously not huge capacity there but it seems to be fine for purpose at the moment.

meanwhile st pauls terrace is still left with shite bus frequency.....

QuoteIs the bus layover that exists currently at Woolloongabba station not good enough? Is there enough buses terminating there that really warrants its own depot?
Buses terminating at CC from the north also use the little turnaround bit in front of the State Library as a short layover. Obviously not huge capacity there but it seems to be fine for purpose at the moment.

Although it works for now, if BCC wants Gold Citygliders etc it's going to need more space.

Blue CityGlider
On Monday 15 December 2014 BCC moved this CityGlider bus stop from 12 Commercial Road to the current placement, a move of over 380 m. Indeed, CityGlider stops generally are up to 800 m apart, so users already are demonstrably capable of walking at least 400 m to access them.

Moving the stop 220 m to be on Breakfast Creek Rd is a reasonable and viable option. There is of course the option to overlay the Gold Glider and amalgamate the 300.

Quote from: #Metro on June 21, 2021, 10:24:30 AM

QuoteIs the bus layover that exists currently at Woolloongabba station not good enough? Is there enough buses terminating there that really warrants its own depot?
Buses terminating at CC from the north also use the little turnaround bit in front of the State Library as a short layover. Obviously not huge capacity there but it seems to be fine for purpose at the moment.

Although it works for now, if BCC wants Gold Citygliders etc it's going to need more space.

Blue CityGlider
On Monday 15 December 2014 BCC moved this CityGlider bus stop from 12 Commercial Road to the current placement, a move of over 380 m. Indeed, CityGlider stops generally are up to 800 m apart, so users already are demonstrably capable of walking at least 400 m to access them.

Moving the stop 220 m to be on Breakfast Creek Rd is a reasonable and viable option. There is of course the option to overlay the Gold Glider and amalgamate the 300.

Ya they originally moved the stop to be right out the front of Gasworks instead of some nothing corner with a BP (And to eliminate the one way loop). That's a positive step.

What's the benefit in moving away from the shops onto Breakfast creek road?

The closure of Toombul also changes the dynamics of the Gold Glider, enhancing the need for it to turn around at Skygate instead of Hamilton North Shore.

Having two more bus services to Skygate will provide alternatives for people travelling to and from Skygate. Additionally, it will allow passengers to directly transfer to the terminal bus to get to places along Qantas Drive and as well as the airport terminals.

DFO should have a train station...period.

Gold Glider (time to drop the silly names really) is the T20.

https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=14588.0

Can we just encourage a proper review of the network instead of drawing lines on maps and pushing our own little agendas?

None of this helps anything.

You know the drawing is a concept and an approach and not designed to be exact lines on a map!!  I  am a strong supporter of a review but fear it will only fiddle with the existing approach. An approach that I think is stuck in the 1970's, BCC blinkered and clearly not doing or capable of doing the heavy lifting it needs to. Our existing public transport mode share is way way way off leading practice and a massive change in the network is needed not just a review of existing routes!

I think it is helpful to have mapping exercises - many members have done this. The one entity that should have a network map but doesn't - is TransLink!

Back in 2012-2013 members did not know the full extent of the duplication in the Brisbane City Council Bus network and it was finally visualised when RBOT produced both the then existing bus network and a potential new network.

Many of us cannot wait for a "proper network review" - we have been waiting for 10 years now - so we just draw up new networks ourselves.

   

Many members back then already knew how much duplication there was, how much just kept getting added to the network at a click of the fingers and where black holes were. We didn't need a map to show us. We knew it.

And what's the deal with the push for sky gate to have its own station all of a sudden??? It's still a pie in the sky idea. Get more people on a bus first before p%ssing money away on foamy ideas.

^ This is why I still can't understand the enthusiasm for Route 77.  It is a complete waste of space.  All it does is selectively provide a lucky few with a slightly faster trip they can make using a plethora of other routes - it doesn't stop anywhere not already serviced by other routes, and it runs infrequently outside of peak.

This sort of thing is in my view unforgiveable when so many services run hourly or worse and simply don't have to be that bad.

Lord Mayor's Facebook Post--->https://www.facebook.com/100050386964196/posts/pfbid033bLs1ZhMawR8hgPBAuheUPNK7W3WKuEBU6SkQv8YSjNVfdajNcDNxYrBikrCyXaLl/

QuoteThe people of Brisbane love our Blue and Maroon CityGliders and we're now working with TransLink to jointly plan a third, Gold CityGlider route between Northshore Hamilton and the Gabba ahead of #Brisbane2032.
 
The high-frequency route will not only connect key Olympic and Paralympic precincts, but will also service the much-anticipated Queen's Wharf and Eagle Street riverside precincts.
 
Stay tuned for more details as our plans progress! 🚌

Well done BCC for proposing this before finalisation so the public can comment.

I think maybe this can be tacked on to the existing CityGlider Route (they all come from Eagle Farm depot and run along KSD out of service). It should also travel the full length of the road to Portside Ferry Terminal.

Services to and from Teneriffe Ferry can be served by a new Route 197 bus formed from breaking up the already indirect 196 into two services and a more direct route.

Old 196 => 196 + 197

196 - UQ Lakes, Highgate Hill, West End, CBD, Valley, New Farm
197 - Yeronga, Fairfield, Annerley Road, SE Busway, CBD, Valley, Teneriffe Ferry

St Pauls Tce had a tram line along it back in the day, and could support a BUZ route with the density that it has, but I would prefer that road have a bus to Toombul/Chermside on it rather than this.

Concept:

A better solution for the proposed service is to go to and from Skygate Gate to Woolloongabba via Hamilton Northshore.

and we wonder why public transport usage is so low.  Fiddling here fiddling there. BRT Network Design before any new routes added or existing route changed.

Quote from: #Metro on June 14, 2022, 10:32:46 AMSt Pauls Tce had a tram line along it back in the day, and could support a BUZ route with the density that it has, but I would prefer that road have a bus to Toombul/Chermside on it rather than this.

St Pauls Terrace will, fairly soon, sit right between two railway stations (FV & Exhibition), so does it really warrant a bus service to Toombul when train services exist? As for Chermside, do we really need to add another Gympie Road service, and one that forgoes the Inner Northern Busway to beetle along up St Pauls Terrace? 

QuoteSt Pauls Terrace will, fairly soon, sit right between two railway stations (FV & Exhibition), so does it really warrant a bus service to Toombul when train services exist? As for Chermside, do we really need to add another Gympie Road service, and one that forgoes the Inner Northern Busway to beetle along up St Pauls Terrace?

It is all a network, so when you change a route in one area, it causes flow on effects in the wider structure of the bus network. There is already a route 320 Chermside along St. Pauls Tce. Wider bus reforms would change that and also provide a different route to Toombul via the INB. Running a service to Toombul along St. Pauls Tce would not add another service to Gympie Road, as St. Pauls Tce continues into Sandgate Road to Toombul.

It isn't my intention to go into that further, as that is really about whole-of-bus-network reform. My intention here is to ensure a straight and direct CityGlider gets to Portside and we can max patronage on 196 by terminating that at UQ Lakes, and fix up Yeronga with a BUZ in the process. Current CityCat users of the BlueCityGlider at Tenneriffe can be compensated with a connection to BUZ 197 under the concept.

(And I agree with Jonno, fiddle here and there - just the whole bus network needs to be redrawn)

Does everyone realise that Portside and Hamilton Northshore no longer host cruise ships. All cruise ships are now docking at the Brisbane International Cruise Terminal. Thus, the new service will not provide any direct benefits for cruise passengers. However, having the service go to Skygate with a connecting BAC eBus loop to the Brisbane International Cruise Terminal can provide people with a essential PT connection to cruise ships.

Regardless of whether ships are docking at Portside or not, servicing cruise ships was not the intention of the Gold Glider in the first place.

Does that imply Silver and Bronze CityGliders are going to be invented as well? Because if they are the next ones on the list are 230 Bulimba and 400 CentenaryGlider    

Quote from: nathandavid88 on June 14, 2022, 13:51:39 PMRegardless of whether ships are docking at Portside or not, servicing cruise ships was not the intention of the Gold Glider in the first place.

And nor would it ever be.  People get on board these things with luggage to go and float in the sea.  They aren't going to go out of their way to catch a bus, and there's hardly a congestion problem to be solved given it's one boat a day at most - usually less.  The vast majority of cruise passengers are not going to do something like what I did the last time I got off one (get the Citycat straight to work that morning).

My view remains this is all pointless.  No new additions should be made to the network unless and until the waste is cleaned up, and in particular no new routes that duplicate existing routes.  That goes for anywhere in Queensland.  There should be a routine program to expand the network into growing areas and to upgrade rigid buses to artics where inner city capacity increases are needed - not add to the complexity.

All that needs to happen here at most is upgrade the 300 to run every 15 minutes in the off peak and more frequently in peak, send every second second service to Northshore instead of Toombul, and run them via Mary Street and to the Gabba instead of down Adelaide Street (ensuring there is a same-stop interchange somewhere along Ann St inbound and Wickham St outbound).  There is no bloody need for anything more than that.

The chosen route is completely cooked.  Why does it dart around so much instead of following a logical, clear path to the CBD?  It's symptomatic of everything that is worst about Brisbane's transport planning.

Quote from: SurfRail on June 14, 2022, 14:16:31 PM

Quote from: nathandavid88 on June 14, 2022, 13:51:39 PMRegardless of whether ships are docking at Portside or not, servicing cruise ships was not the intention of the Gold Glider in the first place.

And nor would it ever be.  People get on board these things with luggage to go and float in the sea.  They aren't going to go out of their way to catch a bus, and there's hardly a congestion problem to be solved given it's one boat a day at most - usually less.  The vast majority of cruise passengers are not going to do something like what I did the last time I got off one (get the Citycat straight to work that morning).

My view remains this is all pointless.  No new additions should be made to the network unless and until the waste is cleaned up, and in particular no new routes that duplicate existing routes.  That goes for anywhere in Queensland.  There should be a routine program to expand the network into growing areas and to upgrade rigid buses to artics where inner city capacity increases are needed - not add to the complexity.

All that needs to happen here at most is upgrade the 300 to run every 15 minutes in the off peak and more frequently in peak, send every second second service to Northshore instead of Toombul, and run them via Mary Street and to the Gabba instead of down Adelaide Street (ensuring there is a same-stop interchange somewhere along Ann St inbound and Wickham St outbound).  There is no bloody need for anything more than that.

The chosen route is completely cooked.  Why does it dart around so much instead of following a logical, clear path to the CBD?  It's symptomatic of everything that is worst about Brisbane's transport planning.

100%.  Could not agree more with the sentiment here. 

Quote from: SurfRail on June 14, 2022, 14:16:31 PM

Quote from: nathandavid88 on June 14, 2022, 13:51:39 PMRegardless of whether ships are docking at Portside or not, servicing cruise ships was not the intention of the Gold Glider in the first place.

And nor would it ever be.  People get on board these things with luggage to go and float in the sea.  They aren't going to go out of their way to catch a bus, and there's hardly a congestion problem to be solved given.

Yes, people do get buses to and from cruise ships. In the USA (Long Beach) where I have caught cruises from, they have loop buses provided by the MTA.  I have caught these buses that are subsequently well patronised with cruise passengers and visitors to the area.

Quote from: SurfRail on June 14, 2022, 14:16:31 PMThe chosen route is completely cooked.  Why does it dart around so much instead of following a logical, clear path to the CBD?  It's symptomatic of everything that is worst about Brisbane's transport planning.

I think it's because the Lord Mayor is trying to connect too much in a single route, specifically Queen's Wharf, CRR, Eagle Street/Riverside and the Valley heart. Personally, I would send it up Creek and down Wharf Streets, and connect to St Pauls Terrace via Leichardt Street in Spring Hill, rather than doing that little dance through the Valley. Adding a stop up the top of Wharf Street might help service Spring Hill a bit better.

A loop bus to and from the cruise terminal as well as a Glider service from Skygate can provide budget conscious travellers with an option, as well as a relatively quick ride to the CBD and the Valley.

ABC News--->https://amp.abc.net.au/article/101149638

^^ Prearranged charter buses that connect with existing public transport nodes are more than sufficient for the one or maybe two cruise ship a day that come into dock. They don't require a publicly-funded public transport service when they are so infrequent. Brisbane is not Long Beach.

Quote from: nathandavid88 on June 14, 2022, 15:38:03 PM^^ Prearranged charter buses that connect with existing public transport nodes are more than sufficient for the one or maybe two cruise ship a day that come into dock. They don't require a publicly-funded public transport service when they are so infrequent. Brisbane is not Long Beach.

I didn't imply the Glider going to the Cruise terminal only to Skygate. BAC are likely to run services to and from the cruise terminal, as it is in their jurisdiction.

Quote from: nathandavid88 on June 14, 2022, 15:11:24 PM

Quote from: SurfRail on June 14, 2022, 14:16:31 PMThe chosen route is completely cooked.  Why does it dart around so much instead of following a logical, clear path to the CBD?  It's symptomatic of everything that is worst about Brisbane's transport planning.

I think it's because the Lord Mayor is trying to connect too much in a single route, specifically Queen's Wharf, CRR, Eagle Street/Riverside and the Valley heart. Personally, I would send it up Creek and down Wharf Streets, and connect to St Pauls Terrace via Leichardt Street in Spring Hill, rather than doing that little dance through the Valley. Adding a stop up the top of Wharf Street might help service Spring Hill a bit better.

That's the issue in one.  This is a political solution in search of a problem.

This is the sort of thing that shouldn't happen without a wider network review, especially for BCC.  Their network is the most ancient, the most illegible and the most desperately in need of work.  No more bandaids.

Brisbanetimes --> New high-frequency bus service could link Brisbane's north and south

QuoteA new high-frequency bus route to connect Brisbane's north and south sides ahead of the Olympic Games in 2032 has been submitted for state approval.

Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner said the business case for a potential "Gold CityGlider" had been completed and submitted to Translink for consideration. ...

QuoteThis is the sort of thing that shouldn't happen without a wider network review, especially for BCC.  Their network is the most ancient, the most illegible and the most desperately in need of work.  No more bandaids.

I have to agree. We have now waited 10 years since the 2012-2013 bus review and time is up.

This is also a separate thing to the Brisbane Metro. Bus reviews happen all the time with or without bi-arctic buses, and they needs to sort through that.

QuoteLord Mayor Adrian Schrinner said the business case for a potential "Gold CityGlider" had been completed and submitted to Translink for consideration.

So they already did the business case? 

https://www.smh.com.au/national/queensland/new-high-frequency-bus-service-could-link-brisbane-s-north-and-south-20220614-p5atm1.html

Quote"Adrian Schrinner and the LNP are set to undertake an entire bus network review, which will mean more cuts to services," he said.

Jarred Cassidy and Red Team are going to launch another anti-bus review campaign IMHO and do as much obstruction as possible. Scare campaign has already started it seems. And we will be back again with people yarn-bombing bus stops and spreading misinformation all over again. Sorry, but we cannot have a repeat of that.

I don't know who thought it was a good idea to have party politics at local government level.  It is so f##king stupid it hurts.  Brisbane is governed very poorly compared to what it deserves, in large part for this reason.

It does not matter what economic philosophy you subscribe to, the pipes still need to be unclogged and the parks still need to be mowed.

Hopefully we can get some more independents in council in the coming elections, and maybe then we can even repeal the City of Brisbane Act and put BCC into line with every other LGA in the state.  The only ones that really need to be off by themselves are Weipa, for very specific reasons, and the various Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander LGAs, for other very specific reasons.

There's nothing stopping parties from running in non-BCC council elections, they just rarely bother. And so most Qld councils are "LNP aligned 'independent'" vs "Labor aligned 'independent'".

Also, party politics on local councils is commonplace in Sydney and Melbourne, at least.

Does it make sense to run a Gold CityGlider into Woolloongabba via CCB? We are literally going to have a train station with Class A ROW opening there soon enough.

Or is this about giving passengers 'options' to stay away from Queensland Rail train stations, even brand new ones? Why can't they just get off at Albert St and get the train to Wooloongabba?

Edit: Amy McMahon MP has put something out. Mandatory FREE PT line as well.
https://www.amymacmahon.com/goldcityglider

QuoteIn the Lord Mayor's announcement he referenced the large amount of new development in Hamilton as one of the reasons for this service. I would argue that South Brisbane has also experienced accelerated development for decades, outpacing public infrastructure, like public transport.

So, this service should extend into the Southside too – rather than ending at Woolloongabba, it should travel along Ipswich Road to at least the Princess Alexandra Hospital and Annerley Junction, if not further to Chardon's Corner/Cracknell Road.

Write to the Lord Mayor at lord.mayor@brisbane.qld.gov.au asking for:

- Fast-track delivery of the Gold City Glider that links Hamilton and Annerley via Kangaroo Point
- Free public transport

Full BRT redesign - https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=14588.0

Go T13 and T20 - routes are just the concept not the actual design!!

Urgh Skygate. What is everyone's obsession with it? It's an area that does not deserve a glyder route. Nor a buz route. There's no population that way. Business hours are between peak hours. No layover facilities. Just more bs foam from people that don't know the area. Spend it on services for areas that need it.