RAIL - Back On Track Forum

This is poll #1 of 2.

This poll is to do with a general review of transport in the corridor between Toowoomba and Brisbane, including the City of Toowoomba itself and towns on the way (i.e. Gatton etc). It includes reviewing rail options, road options, taxi options, active transport options and the coach service between Toowoomba and Brisbane.

This poll will run for 7 days and results will be visible after the poll expires.
You may change your vote.

I have placed the poll in this forum as there isn't one for Country BUS services...
The originating discussion thread is here ---> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=8449.0

I voted in support, as I assume from the wording that this includes the review and inclusion of the local intracity Toowoomba bus network.

If it doesn't I don't support it.

This is correct. This includes review of the internal (local) transport needs of Toowoomba - all modes.

Yep public transport within Toowoomba is pretty bad, most of the routes finish by around 5pm and don't run at all on Sundays.  I stayed there for a weekend recently and found the only real option is to take a taxi or drive anywhere out of walking distance.

How is that any different to Brisbane?

Um...I'm not sure how to answer that?
A multitude of BUZ routes
Trains (okay only half hourly but they mostly run to a decent hour except Doomben & Sunshine Coast)
The really bad bit is if you want to take a bus at night outside BCC boundary (Logan, Moreton, Redlands, Ipswich).

Quote from: achiruel on June 10, 2012, 06:59:40 AM
Um...I'm not sure how to answer that?
A multitude of BUZ routes
Trains (okay only half hourly but they mostly run to a decent hour except Doomben & Sunshine Coast)
The really bad bit is if you want to take a bus at night outside BCC boundary (Logan, Moreton, Redlands, Ipswich).

354 has a 1h30m weekday frequency. 320 has a 1h30m frequency on the weekend. 336/337 have a 2 hour weekday/weekend frequency. 306/322/338 has a 2 hour weekend frequency. It's not really in Brisbane technically but considering its close Strathpine/Warner/Bray Park/Lawnton only has an hourly bus service all week - including peak hour which makes it home of the car. A large portion of routes start after 8-9am and finish up around 5-6pm (including some that finish before 5pm). Routes run different running patterns that bypass places because of the time such as the 326/327/338/339/359. Past Chermside excluding the 330/340/345/350 everything is hourly or they go on scenic tour routes of the burbs.

On the weekend (be it sat&sun or only sun) and including public holidays services 315/321/326/327/328/329/336/337/346/353/354/357/358/360/367/372/373/377/378 do not operate on the northside (feel free to correct me or add more routes that don't run on the north or even the southside which I haven't included).

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on June 10, 2012, 13:51:20 PM

Quote from: achiruel on June 10, 2012, 06:59:40 AM
Um...I'm not sure how to answer that?
A multitude of BUZ routes
Trains (okay only half hourly but they mostly run to a decent hour except Doomben & Sunshine Coast)
The really bad bit is if you want to take a bus at night outside BCC boundary (Logan, Moreton, Redlands, Ipswich).

354 has a 1h30m weekday frequency. 320 has a 1h30m frequency on the weekend. 336/337 have a 2 hour weekday/weekend frequency. 306/322/338 has a 2 hour weekend frequency. It's not really in Brisbane technically but considering its close Strathpine/Warner/Bray Park/Lawnton only has an hourly bus service all week - including peak hour which makes it home of the car. A large portion of routes start after 8-9am and finish up around 5-6pm (including some that finish before 5pm). Routes run different running patterns that bypass places because of the time such as the 326/327/338/339/359. Past Chermside excluding the 330/340/345/350 everything is hourly or they go on scenic tour routes of the burbs.

On the weekend (be it sat&sun or only sun) and including public holidays services 315/321/326/327/328/329/336/337/346/353/354/357/358/360/367/372/373/377/378 do not operate on the northside (feel free to correct me or add more routes that don't run on the north or even the southside which I haven't included).

Granted, not ideal but in Toowoomba NO services operate after 5pm, and NO services operate on Sunday AT ALL.

While in some regions of Brisbane there may be some poor routes/poor coverage, fact is that BUZ services exist with 15 minute frequency all day, trains operate until midnight usually etc.

So while your complaints are valid wrt Brisbane service provision, they pale in comparison to the transport provision in Toowoomba.

Eg, so to use your first example of the 354, it has low frequency and doesn't operate on the weekend, but most of the route is within reasonable comfortable (maybe some parts a little bit extended), walking distance of another route, many of them BUZ or high frequency (or soon to be) routes (333, 345, 369, 375 etc) or a train (Mitchelton station).

In Toowoomba on Sunday or after 5pm, nothing, no options, no matter how far you walk, how infrequent or how circuituous.

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on June 10, 2012, 13:51:20 PM

Quote from: achiruel on June 10, 2012, 06:59:40 AM
Um...I'm not sure how to answer that?
A multitude of BUZ routes
Trains (okay only half hourly but they mostly run to a decent hour except Doomben & Sunshine Coast)
The really bad bit is if you want to take a bus at night outside BCC boundary (Logan, Moreton, Redlands, Ipswich).

354 has a 1h30m weekday frequency. 320 has a 1h30m frequency on the weekend. 336/337 have a 2 hour weekday/weekend frequency. 306/322/338 has a 2 hour weekend frequency. It's not really in Brisbane technically but considering its close Strathpine/Warner/Bray Park/Lawnton only has an hourly bus service all week - including peak hour which makes it home of the car. A large portion of routes start after 8-9am and finish up around 5-6pm (including some that finish before 5pm). Routes run different running patterns that bypass places because of the time such as the 326/327/338/339/359. Past Chermside excluding the 330/340/345/350 everything is hourly or they go on scenic tour routes of the burbs.

On the weekend (be it sat&sun or only sun) and including public holidays services 315/321/326/327/328/329/336/337/346/353/354/357/358/360/367/372/373/377/378 do not operate on the northside (feel free to correct me or add more routes that don't run on the north or even the southside which I haven't included).

With all due respect but how is a discussion about service frequencies for Brisbane suburban bus services relevant to the subject of this thread which is a review into the provision of an intercity service between Toowoomba and Brisbane.   

It includes internal routes of Toowoomba City. Which apparently draw comparison to Brisbane's services?

Quote from: Jonas Jade on June 10, 2012, 14:39:24 PM
It includes internal routes of Toowoomba City. Which apparently draw comparison to Brisbane's services?

The title of the thread is quite explicit being a review of public transport between Toowoomba and Brisbane.
Local Twoomba public transport services are another subject altogether and there is no question that they as did Ipswich have a pressing need for an upgrade but at the present time the local bus services operated ther are operated by PRIVATE operators who despite receiving some subsidy are reliant on the fare box for their revinue and driving around providing transport for parcels of air does not pay the bills.

Quote from: tramtrain on June 08, 2012, 14:09:26 PM
This is correct. This includes review of the internal (local) transport needs of Toowoomba - all modes.

From tramtrain: the OP.

The question is if you support a review of the transport requirements of both internal and intracity Toowoomba etc.

The specific thread for a poll between Toowoomba and Brisbane only is: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=8490.0

and here's the general discussion thread for the topic: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=8449.0

Quote
Granted, not ideal but in Toowoomba NO services operate after 5pm, and NO services operate on Sunday AT ALL.

While in some regions of Brisbane there may be some poor routes/poor coverage, fact is that BUZ services exist with 15 minute frequency all day, trains operate until midnight usually etc.

In Toowoomba on Sunday or after 5pm, nothing, no options, no matter how far you walk, how infrequent or how circuituous.

Very valid points Jonas Jade. Very valid indeed.

The title has a character limit, so I was forced to squeeze as much as I could in the title box. That said though, the stated question choices are clear and detailed and expanded further in this thread. I used the word between because I was also referring to towns on the way as well such as Gatton, where UQ has now based it's vet and animal operations. This review includes internal (local) routes in Toowoomba, and all modes. I have two polls going - one generally about transport, and one specifically about the bus to and from Toowoomba-Brisbane.

Hopefully this will clear things up.

The populations of Ipswich and Toowoomba are comparable.

As posted two seperate issues and it is preferable if they are to treated seriously that they be kept seperate and objective.   

@mufreight, I wasn't intending on it being a conversation but a quick jab at Translinks poor network planning and orginisation considering they provide all the PT services (via GoCard) in SEQ and have some serious backing for services behind it (QR, BCC/BT, Sate Government and private operators etc).

But that's the downside of living in a remote area with a limited population such as Toowoomba. Brisbane has the population, the need, the trip generators (Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast, Ipswich, Caboolture, Brisbane CBD, Victoria Point, shopping centres, education facilities, sports and park facilities, entertainment precents - Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane Entertainment Centre, Brisbane Convention Centre, the Valley etc), the demand and the resources (Queensland Rail, Brisbane City Council, State Government/Translink) that can provide the 15 minute frequencies. Outside of that private operators very rarely have 15 min frequencies.

I've said it before about buz/train services. They are only usefull if you happen to live along/close to its route, get off along the route/able to transfer and are able to access it ie feeders. Strathpine could have a train every 5 minutes in both directions but its still pointless if I don't have a bus to get me there to access it because Translink don't do their job. I could live along the the 330 buz route but its pointless if I want to get to Sandgate on a Sunday without going on a site seing trip via Chermside/Northgate or paying extra because I went through more zones.

I'm aware that Toowoomba is unlikely to have BUZ services running until midnight on Sundays etc or that it would attract large volumes of passengers if it did.

I just believe the current service provision is fairly poor for a city the size of Toowoomba, and an internal review of services is needed before a review of services between Toowoomba and Brisbane.

I'd make an educated guess that patronage in Toowoomba could be increased a fair bit with relatively minor improvements to the bus service, such as later services on weekdays (so that people aren't afraid to catch the bus for fear of missing the last service), and services on Sunday, and some bus routes having their frequency increased above the current hourly service levels, even if just on targeted routes such as ones that go to/past USQ.

QuoteThe title has a character limit, so I was forced to squeeze as much as I could in the title box.

Transport review into public transport between Toowoomba and Brisbane   would become
Review; PT between Toowoomba<>Brisbane & Toowomba local PT.   I made it shorter but got everything in.

I made a thread/poll for the internal Toowoomba services so that there is a clearly defined spot for that discussion:

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=8496.0

Results are in:

1. VERY strong support for internal review of Toowoomba transport and services on towns on the way
2. No support on this forum for TL bus between Toowoomba and Brisbane

Thank you to all who voted!

Mayor calls for Electrified train service between Toowoomba and Brisbane

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/federal-budget/calls-for-toowoomba-citytrain-services-to-piggyback-inland-rail-project-20170510-gw1nsx.html

I definitely agree an once only opportunity for the Electrified train service to be delivered together with inland rail

Mate there isn't going to be an electric service.  Full stop.  Way too marginal for a line which is overwhelmingly about freight and will have limited passenger slots anyway. 

There doesn't need to be anyway, DEMUs exist and can do the job until they can deliver a reliable fully electric self propelled train.

I wonder how feasible it would be to have a train that ran on the wires from Brisbane to Rosewood then went on to batteries until it left the Inland Rail at Gowrie then ran on wires again into Toowoomba. It could then recharge the batteries while waiting at the platform at Toowoomba. The only bit of new overhead would be the existing bit of track from Gowrie into Toowomba.

You would only need about 100km of range on batteries.

Alternatively, what about a hybrid train that had a small diesel motor that recharged batteries on the go when it was not being powered by the catenary. Kind of like a plug-in hybrid car.

I'm certain the technology is possible if not yet available.

^ Yes.  In 10 years plus time there will be lots of options.

See http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/federal-budget/calls-for-toowoomba-citytrain-services-to-piggyback-inland-rail-project-20170510-gw1nsx.html  I said exactly that.

As I see it DEMUs (or hybrids) could run from Brisbane via Ipswich onto the Inland freight line at Calvert up to Gowrie Junction.  A short connection direct into Toowoomba would be easily done.  The line from Gowrie Junction to Kagaru needs to be dual gauge.  You could then also run DEMUs Brisbane to Kagaru, Calvert then onwards to Toowoomba.

For interest.

Hitachi class 800/801 > http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/products/projects/class-800/801-iep



Electric and bi-mode (diesel & electric) order for Intercity Express Programme (UK) compromises 42 trains  electric trains and 80 trains  bi-mode.

Another suggestion is extending the platforms beyond Ipswich to Rosewood to 6 cars (Hopefully NOT Sunshine Coast Line style at stations beyond Landsborough), extend every 2nd Ipswich train to Rosewood on the current peak express pattern (once sufficient crew & timetabling permits in a few years) to maintain hourly frequency (and likewise for every 2nd Caboolture train to Nambour to make that hourly - instead of the current every 3rd Caboolture train extended to Nambour arrangement to keep the 90 min off-peak frequency beyond Caboolture). 
A suggested pattern is Rosewood-Nambour and Ipswich-Caboolture overlaid to keep the half-hourly express pattern between IPS - CAB.

From there, operate Lockyer Valley/Toowoomba service as a hourly shuttle to/from Rosewood with some limited through running during peaks ala Gympie North (that's IF there are slots available south of Roma Street).

Quote from: ozbob on May 11, 2017, 13:00:22 PM
For interest.

Hitachi class 800/801 > http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/products/projects/class-800/801-iep



Electric and bi-mode (diesel & electric) order for Intercity Express Programme (UK) compromises 42 trains  electric trains and 80 trains  bi-mode.

Nice trains I guess catenary would still be needed in sections between Rosewood and Toowoomba. It can be an option for SEQ looking forward and next order of trains for the region. These sought of trains can also be deployed for North Qld runs with only new sections of Catenary needed. 

Quote from: Arnz on May 11, 2017, 13:21:33 PM

From there, operate Lockyer Valley/Toowoomba service as a hourly shuttle to/from Rosewood with some limited through running during peaks ala Gympie North (that's IF there are slots available south of Roma Street).

I saw on some map somewhere that there were plans to extend regular Electrified Trains just before Gatton?

There are no plans to electrify the Inland Freight Line AFAIAA.  Bi-mode passenger trains is only one option.

By the time Inland Rail happens we might have steam turbine rail motors !   

The government could also look at using AdBlue for the DEMU hybrids/DMUs.

AdBlue is already used for most of the BCC/BT diesel bus fleet, as well as most of the private operator fleet under the TransLink bus network since BCC/BT moved away from CNG.

http://www.yara.com.au/nox-reduction/adblue-for-vehicles/adblue-for-commercial-vehicles/

http://www.yara.com.au/nox-reduction/adblue-for-vehicles/adblue-in-railway-trains/

Queensland Times 12th May 2017 page 2

A passenger railway line to Toowoomba a must, says Dow

https://t.co/IlnInMVKRE?amp=1

Online at the Toowoomba Chronicle

As mentioned in the CRR thread, running passenger services via Kagaru would require CRR to add capacity into the CBD during the peak.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2017/05/inland-rail-vs-cross-river-rail-irony.html

Who said anything about running via Kagaru?  I couldn't think of anything worse.

Further debate:

https://www.thechronicle.com.au/news/toowoomba-passenger-rail-build-it-and-they-will-co/3177526

^ thanks.  Great local support!   

Toowoomba Chronicle --> Toowoomba passenger rail line on region's 'wish list

QuoteA PASSENGER rail linking Toowoomba to Brisbane as part of the Inland Rail build would push the project along and resolve future planning issues, but priority should remain on the freight system.

It's a view of Toowoomba civic and business leaders in response to overwhelming support for plans called for by public transport advocate Robert Dow at the weekend.

Mr Dow said the Federal Government's $8.4 billion equity injection for Inland Rail would open up the passenger rail option.

"The travel time efficiency savings flowing from the track improvements will make rail highly competitive with cars for the journey from Toowoomba to Brisbane," he said.

Toowoomba Mayor Paul Antonio said the Inland Rail funding presented the "opportunity for us to do something, not only for freight", and discussions had been held with the Lockyer Valley Regional Council and South East Queensland Council of Mayors.

"We think it's time to advocate for a proper connection, time to advocate for a proper rail line," Cr Antonio said.

"It's very idealistic and the Council of South East Queensland Mayors is backing a study into it."

The passenger line, he said, would benefit the Toowoomba and wider Lockyer Valley area with increased tourism access.

"Toowoomba could then become the Blue Mountains of Queensland," he said.

Toowoomba and Surat Basin executive chairman Shane Charles said plans for a passenger rail line should be included in the region's development list, but focus and priority must be given to major projects including the bypass and Inland Rail.

"Our region has received funding from both state and federal governments over recent times which is far in excess of what other regions have achieved," he said.

"An effective passenger rail network connecting to Brisbane would be fantastic and we love the idea of it.

"Indeed we, and community leaders, have spoken about it for some time. The reality is that passenger rail is a very hard piece of infrastructure to convince a government to build.

"Our view is that it should be on our wish list but lets get the Range bypass finished, and Inland Rail built and then we potentially have some of the infrastructure that will position us better for passenger rail."

With the perway built there isn't a huge amount of capital expenditure needed on other things.  3 new stations (Laidley, Gatton, Harlaxton), modifications to Toowoomba station, and some suitable trains.  Shouldn't be any issues between Rosewood and Bowen Hills, Toowoomba services can slot in among the rest with no trouble using the existing trackage, although ideally they would fix the Darra-Corinda issue and get all 4 tracks electrified, plus build the Oxley fourth platform.

Based on the assumption that CRR still remains in limbo/indefinitely delayed, a suggestion is to extend all Rosewood line stations that are currently only 3-car length to full 6-car length to allow extended IPS runs to Rosewood on a hourly off-peak frequency full-time.

As was also suggested earlier the operational pattern should be hourly Nambour to Rosewood and hourly Ipswich to Caboolture overlaid to keep the half-hourly frequency between Ipswich and Caboolture on the express pattern (on both lines) full-time.

Beyond Rosewood, it should be initially a (60min or 90min) shuttle Toowoomba-Rosewood during off-peak and weekends, with some services through in peak (ala Gympie North) based on the assumption that there are still some slots on the IPS/Springfield corridor out of the CBD.

For organizing services, I would probably extend Ipswich services to Wulkuraka full time, since it's basically suburbia, close Thagoona and Karrabin, and then just have Walloon and Rosewood picked up by an hourly Roma St-Toowoomba service, which would also stop at Laidley, Gatton, Range Bottom, Harlaxton, Toowoomba.

So under that model, Walloon and Rosewood become dieselfied, but get a faster, direct journey into town.