Campbell Stands for getting rid of waste -> Westlander?

[rtt_rules]

So what now with the Westie?

Is there enough LNP MP support of the western areas to see the Westie if not retained in its current form to at least be improved in a truncated form?

Likewise Inlander

Regards
Shane

[Gazza]

The government shouldn't be subsidising tourist trains IMO. If the Ghan, Indian Pacific etc can be privately owned then why not this?

And before anyone tries to tell me that it provides a "vital transport lifeline to isolated communities", or that it prevents road trauma.....No, it doesn't, it has worse frequency than the 314, at only twice per week, and takes a whopping 17h to go 777km....so won't be making much of a difference in the scheme of things.

But the coach takes a much more respectable 10h!, and has at least a couple of services per day (Better than the Gympielander lol!)

[ozbob]

Sources suggest the Westlander was going, even if Labor was returned.

Hence my journey on it a couple of weeks.  I expect it to be chopped.

The carriages are not DDA compliant, approaching 50 years of age, done a great job of service.  There is no momentum to establish long distance passenger rail links in the new style in Queensland as in the other states.

The rail network will be progressively killed off from here.  Other states are expanding their networks.  Queensland will be left with a mediocre suburban network, very limited interurban, and a few coal lines.  The big crunch will come when fuel prices continue to escalate.  The question then will be why did they close the rail lines ...

[Jonno]

Welcome to the 1970's.  Rest of world investing in rail whilst QLD under both major parties is forcing more and more people onto our roads.  

[somebody]

Other states are expanding their networks. 

You are thinking of RFR in Vic?  I'm not aware of any expansions in NSW, WA or any service in SA other than the private GSR.

[ozbob]

Been some interesting developments in  WA with freight.

Victoria reopening re-expanding passenger and freight.

SA moving ahead.

Talk in NSW of reopening some of the grain lines.

[somebody]

If we are including freight, ARTC are straightening parts of the Maitland-Brisbane line.

[SurfRail]

It's hard to compare us to Victoria.  The RFR lines are more analogous to the Gold Coast or Mandurah lines in terms of market and distance. 

The inland rail services are always very marginal and could probably be replaced with a combination of coaches and air services given the distances involved.  That might be short-sighted and a backward step, but it wouldn't put out entire towns and so could maybe be justified.  (Personally I don't support that for the time being.)

Coastal services all the way to Cairns are here to stay, and if anything will get busier.

[ozbob]

Once the Westlander goes the line will probably close as well west of Miles, Wandoan will stay for now.  Mount Isa line will survive because of the freight, Inlander? Lot of local support.  SOTO might be truncated as well.

[colinw]

The old daytime Toowoomba to Roma railcar that ran until 1993 was significantly faster than the Westlander, and used to get a surprising amount of use right up to the end.  Can't remember how often it ran, maybe 2-3 times a week?

[Gazza]

It's hard to compare us to Victoria.  The RFR lines are more analogous to the Gold Coast or Mandurah lines in terms of market and distance. 

The inland rail services are always very marginal and could probably be replaced with a combination of coaches and air services given the distances involved.  That might be short-sighted and a backward step, but it wouldn't put out entire towns and so could maybe be justified.  (Personally I don't support that for the time being.)

Coastal services all the way to Cairns are here to stay, and if anything will get busier.

This, I believe in the Tilt, and if trains ran at more useful times it could do 'local' journey pairs (Eg Townsville-Cairns)....Medium speed sub avation sorta stuff.

But the Westlander just doesn't have that potential IMO.
Regional fast rail is an actual legit PT service, but the Westlander is something you ride for the 'fun' of the journey, with some of the market being people for whom it happens to be departing on the day they need it.

[colinw]

The Westlander as far as Helidon actually has the highest average speed over the first 112km of any service operating out of Brisbane! It does
the 112km to Helidon quicker than the RTT does the 112km to Cooroy.

Doesn't make it useful 'though. Just shows the potential of the Main Line, even with the windy bit from Grandchester to Laidley still in place.

[petey3801]

SOTO is an interesting one, and in some ways similar to Westie. Probably should be run as a day trip from Rocky to Longreach, coming back then next day. Provided with a loose connection with CTT.

There are strong rumours that the ICE trains will be deployed to Rockhampton to run Rocky - Emerald instead of the SOTO in the next couple years.. Wouldn't surprise me at all, especially considering an ICE has been used for driver tuition for Bundy crews several times in the last year or so...

[HappyTrainGuy]

SOTO is an interesting one, and in some ways similar to Westie. Probably should be run as a day trip from Rocky to Longreach, coming back then next day. Provided with a loose connection with CTT.

There are strong rumours that the ICE trains will be deployed to Rockhampton to run Rocky - Emerald instead of the SOTO in the next couple years.. Wouldn't surprise me at all, especially considering an ICE has been used for driver tuition for Bundy crews several times in the last year or so...

Tend to agree with that aswell. Pretty sure there was also some driver training with a set in the last couple of months too.

[petey3801]

I don't think thats a bad move, Rocky - Emerald return daily although I do question if you would fill even 4 cars. Also a good home for these very unloved trains which have better seating than RTT EC.

Q Whats on the rumour mill have for the lack of go-go juice between Burngrove and Emerald? Repair O/H, DEL hauled, Genset in one of the cars?

It would be a pretty good move IMO and put the ICE trains back onto the longer distance runs they were designed for (instead of stopping every couple minutes north of Caboolture as is the case now).

As for the lack of juice between Burngrove and Emerald, that I haven't heard anything on the rumour mill about, however I would imagine they would repair the overhead for it.

Tend to agree with that aswell. Pretty sure there was also some driver training with a set in the last couple of months too.

That is correct. I think CityTrain got that ICE set back earlier than planned due to the ICE that was on the Gympie run at the time needing repairs, as no other ICE sets were operable!

[mufreight]

Other states are expanding their networks. 

You are thinking of RFR in Vic?  I'm not aware of any expansions in NSW, WA or any service in SA other than the private GSR.

The daily Bathurst - Sydney - Bathurst to be reinstated this year for one.   

[somebody]

Other states are expanding their networks. 

You are thinking of RFR in Vic?  I'm not aware of any expansions in NSW, WA or any service in SA other than the private GSR.

The daily Bathurst - Sydney - Bathurst to be reinstated this year for one.   

Haven't heard that.  Didn't know there was any rolling stock available for any such thing.  Is new rolling stock coming for it?

[Stillwater]

To be provided in first term of a Farrell government.

http://www.westernadvocate.com.au/news/local/news/general/add-your-voice-to-the-fight-for-better-rail/2472694.aspx

[Stillwater]

Elaborate please

[colinw]

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7261.0

At last, an act of stupidity to eclipse the Beenleigh to Southport closure in 1964.

[ozbob]

Media Release 12 April 2012

Queensland:  Long distance passenger rail travel is a winner!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport is highlighting the value of the long distance passenger rail services in Queensland.  Today RAIL Back On Track representatives will be departing Brisbane on the Westlander and will be arriving in Charleville at noon on Friday (13th April).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The Westlander is one of the great long distance passenger trains in Queensland. In 2004 there were Golden Anniversary celebrations marking 50 years of the Westlander serving the community and visitors of western Queensland (1). The long distance passenger trains in Queensland are unique.  Providing a quality tourist travel experience they are also important transport communication links for many remote towns throughout Queensland. The Sunlander, the Spirit of the Outback, the Westlander, the Inlander and the Tilt Train services all value add to the economy of Queensland, directly and indirectly.  This was further reinforced with Queensland Rail's Traveltrain Holidays taking out the Major Tourist Attraction award at the 2008 Outback Queensland Tourism Awards (2)."

"Subsidies to Queensland Rail's long distance passenger trains are sensible and are of benefit to the whole community.  Support for the rural community by the Queensland Government in maintaining and improving these services is to be applauded.  It should also be noted that public transport in south-east Queensland is also heavily subsidised.  So is health, electricity, water, education and other transport modes.  Rarely is the true cost of road and air infrastructure, and their environmental penalties costed into those transport modes. If they were, they too would show distortions of cost and subsidies. The cost of road trauma is breaking our nation (3). As freight is moved from rail to road, ever increasing numbers of road trucks are causing costly road damage. Queensland is more than just the south-east! Rail subsidies are returned as broader economic benefits which is why the world getting on with the rail revolution."

"Governments are there to support their communities. Governments lost the transport plot in the 1950s and until recently have lacked the long term vision of our pioneers who laid down our basic rail network.  For example, the myopia demonstrated when the Gold Coast and Tweed Heads railways were closed during the 1960s and right of way lost is now hitting home in exorbitant infrastructure costs to re-establish those lines."

"In twenty or thirty years it is highly likely that the only sustainable bulk transport mode will be rail.  Air and road will be subject to extreme fuel and environmental costs. Governments need to be thinking long term and therefore expanding and continuing support for rail networks.  Rail is the safe, sustainable and environmentally friendly transport solution for Queensland and the nation."

"RAIL Back On Track has reason to believe the Westlander passenger rail service may be ceased in the not too distant future.  The aging Queensland Rail long distance passenger carriage fleet needs replacement. Consideration should then be given to other new diesel/hybrid multiple unit train sets besides the tilt trains for more local and long distance inland passenger services in Queensland (4). Regular commuter services could also be introduced from places such as Gatton, Helidon, and eventually Toowoomba and further west, and similarly from Gympie North and Maryborough.  Apart from the coastal services more local rail services for major provincial cities in Queensland could also be achieved. Local commuter rail services could be established in places like Cairns and Townsville with a bit of vision (5).

"Queensland Rail could also provide a light freight service attached as part of the inland passenger services.  The loss of regular rail freight services to towns such as Cunnamulla and Quilpie, and Charleville is hurting these communities."

"Country rail passenger services have boomed in Victoria under the V/Line banner.  There is no reason why similar results can not be achieved for rural Queensland."

References:

1.   WESTLANDER CELEBRATES GOLDEN MILESTONE http://statements.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=36990

2.   http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=1510.0

3.   Road trauma is breaking the nation http://www.brisinst.org.au/here-and-now/october-2010-issue/7

4.   http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products/rolling_stock/hybrid/index.html

5.   http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4683.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[Gazza]

"Country rail passenger services have boomed in Victoria under the V/Line banner.  There is no reason why similar results can not be achieved for rural Queensland."

Simple reason why it would be hard to replicate here....Pop density and distance.

The real growth has been to Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo, which are fortunate enough to be in reasonable distance to Melbourne.

Trains don't go to Mildura, and it's not hard to see why.

For us, it's basically only Toowoomba that perhaps lacks a passenger rail service in the Brisbane catchment, and even then the range is an issue.

Even if improved, the market for a 777km trip that takes 17h to a small town for instance is less than a quick 1h run to Geelong (A city bigger than Hobart)

[ozbob]

Trains are now back to Bairnsdale.  Mildura is still on the agenda.  V/Line is progressively re-expanding services, for example Clunes.  There are obvious differences between Victoria and Queensland but the principles are the same.  Gatton and Helidon are obvious opportunities, as is Maryborough. 

The Westlander provided an excellent fast freight service for years.  Something really missed these days. 


Passing inbound Westlander west of Toowoomba

Note the freight vehicles, refrigerated vans attached to the Westlander.

Photograph 1994.  This freight service continued up to the setting up of QRN.  Which is now not  interested in anything much other than coal.



Time of journey is not everything it is made out to be for the longer runs ...

[SurfRail]

It helps to think of the RFR project as being 4 slightly faster Gold Coast lines with a booking system.  Other similar operations would be the AvonLink and the Australind in Perth, and the mid-range interurban trains to places like Wyong, Wollongong, Katoomba, Nambour/Gympie etc. 

QR Travel is really in the same space as GSR and CountryLink - little to no commuter traffic and little prospect of it on the current routes.  I think their focus should remain long distance travel.

Helidon is about all we can possibly do to catch up to Victoria (Toowoomba if the range crossing is ever fixed).  Doubtful that would be a booked seat service.  Further up the NCL than Gympie is probably stretching it for time.

[ozbob]

Once the Westlander goes the line will probably close as well west of Miles, Wandoan will stay for now.  Mount Isa line will survive because of the freight, Inlander? Lot of local support.  SOTO might be truncated as well.

SOTO is an interesting one, and in some ways similar to Westie. Probably should be run as a day trip from Rocky to Longreach, coming back then next day. Provided with a loose connection with CTT.

Westie, I think having it reduced to a day service from Roma St to Miles or Roma would be the go, 3 days a week and i'm sure would be more sucessful than now. Currently the main target audience barely even no of its existance running past at night. The far western end is so populated depleted and very easily more likely to hop on a plane or drive.

regards
Shane

Yes, some decent DMUs running out to Roma as you suggest would be quite popular I reckon.  But this is Queensland, the mind set is just not there in the same way it is elsewhere.

[Gazza]

I reckon the point SR makes about the commuter market is a good one. The best work of V/Line is done in the 2-3 hour range of Melbourne. Anything more than that and usage drops right off.
We could get more of the coastal market by running the tilts like a town to town service I guess too....Thats within that range.
And Beaudesert of course is gonna have rail to Brisbane one day.


Services are coming back to Clunes & Bairnsdale (And talk of a study of reintroducing Geelong to Bendigo via Ballarat services)
But I reckon these are more about shoring up country votes rather than being a service that improves mobility....A bit like a country Maroon Glider.

But rail services out to these outback towns..Bleh.
Have say a privatley owned tourist train, it can operate as the market wants.

And then your CSO would be fulfilled by twice daily Coaches, which are much faster than the trains.

[ozbob]

Have you actually travelled on the VLine services in Gippsland?  You might be surprised, very well patronised, frequent and definite plus for mobility.  Swan Hill likewise.

Have you been on any of the long distance pass here in Queensland?  Very enjoyable and you would get a feel what they actually do for the locals.

One of our members is already in Charleville, just had a chat on the phone.  He said the trip out by rail has certainly changed his perspective.  And has had some excellent feedback from the locals.

As I said, different mindset in Queensland ...

[Gazza]

Have you been on any of the long distance pass here in Queensland?  Very enjoyable and you would get a feel what they actually do for the locals.

I haven't, because spending 15h on an old train, isn't my idea of fun, especially when a big chunk of the journey would be at night and you cant see anything.

Have you actually travelled on the VLine services in Gippsland?  You might be surprised, very well patronised, frequent and definite plus for mobility.  Swan Hill likewise.

The Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo lines are the top 3 for patronage by the stats, which basically proves my earlier point....That people make a shorter trip more often than a long one...Someone in Geelong might well go to Melbourne every weekend. Someone from Swan Hill won't.

Re my Usage ...of V/Line, only the Shepparton line (Used to live there)

As I said, different mindset in Queensland

Different mindset for a different situation....Victoria is almost like a little European country with most regional cities accessible to Melbourne (Mildura is a while away, but Adelaide is closer for them anyway)

Qld is vast, which makes passenger rail less useful over long distances because its slow compared to Aviation and driving.

A distance of 800km is pushing it for a HSR market, let alone the pathetic slow trains we have in Australia.

[#Metro]

I think HSR really is for maybe Canberra-Sydney-Melbourne. A lot of people do road trips and fly this way so I think there might be some market there in the future. My experience was shaped by the tilt train which I did not enjoy because at night it was about as comfortable as a long haul international flight (so not very), I was absolutely starving and they didn't have decent food, and I was expecting a really fast train and what I got was like QR CityTrain all the way.

Needless to say, I flew back.

As for country rail, trains are probably better than the buses, but an element of network planning comes into it I think. Buses feeding trains. Regional buses are private so the whole thing is un-coordinated. The other place for HSR might be Brisbane to Cairns, purely for the tourists. That WOULD get a lot of passengers, particularly during holiday season (Bruce Hwy clogged up anyone?) and probably be competitive against air as well.

Ultimately I'm against HSR, not because I don't like HSR, but because for the billions and billions of dollars we could spend on it, we really could fix up or terrible rail system and all the buses in all our major capital cities. You could pay for core capacity upgrades in Melbourne (Melbourne Metro, Convert the tram system to LRT), Sydney (Harbour Crossing 2, Light Rail), Brisbane (Cross River Rail), Adelaide (refurbish the system, more and new trains), Perth (more trains, Light Rail), and put a busway in Hobart. And that would still leave a LOT of change to spare left over for other things...

[SurfRail]

Ultimately I'm against HSR, not because I don't like HSR, but because for the billions and billions of dollars we could spend on it, we really could fix up or terrible rail system and all the buses in all our major capital cities. You could pay for core capacity upgrades in Melbourne (Melbourne Metro, Convert the tram system to LRT), Sydney (Harbour Crossing 2, Light Rail), Brisbane (Cross River Rail), Adelaide (refurbish the system, more and new trains), Perth (more trains, Light Rail), and put a busway in Hobart. And that would still leave a LOT of change to spare left over for other things...

Depends where the money is actually coming from of course.  Any such project would of course attract mainly federal government funding, but there is still a lot of scope for private sector investment which would not materialise for any of the urban projects.  All the more reason to get as much money in the bank from minerals as we can.

[#Metro]

If people want HSR they can get a plane and fly to somewhere with it.
We need to focus on upgrading the commuter networks from legacy systems to something decent.