Missing crossovers from infrastructure projects in SEQ.

[somebody]

I have produced a few JPGs which show the crossovers which should have been included in previous infrastructure projects

Explanations:
Blue - crossovers for which there is little excuse that they are missing
@Caboolture and Petrie - these crossovers allow terminating and starting trains at these stations to use the middle platform and not conflict with opposite direction trains
@Coopers Plains - pretty much the same as above, but also allows PM peak trains to avoid the Dual Gauge and conflicting moves at South Brisbane and Kuraby but doesn't allow for Coopers Plains terminators in that scenario
@West of Darra - This allows Tennyson bound freight to not conflict with Ipswich bound pax and freight trains and also allows a 1500m+ refuge around Darra, and an effective refuge between the Panhard St crossovers and the Corinda crossovers.
@Virginia - This allows northbound trains to access the middle road without conflicting with southbound trains.

Pink - these crossovers would be required to have cross platform interchange at Darra between peak direction Ipswich and Richlands services, in both directions.  Arguable that this is foam.  Not too sure about elevation either.

Green - these crossovers around Coopers Plains would be used to allow (a - western crossover) tighter headways in the AM peak between trains from Varsity Lakes and Beenleigh, as the Beenleigh trains can get out of the way of the coastie by serving Coopers Plains platform #2. (b - eastern crossover) this allows PM peak trains to terminate at Coopers plains and still allow the Gold Coast trains to use the Up Main and overtake Beenleigh trains between Coopers Plains and Kuraby. This removes the conflicting moves at South Brisbane and Kuraby and allows freight to use the Dual Gauge in the PM peak.

Dotted red line near Virginia is track which could be removed.  The crossover between Northgate and Virginia should be removed and made the straight line path.  Currently every normal train through Virginia #3 (northbound) has to traverse the diverging leg of a turnout - not good.

Cityrail have learned its lesson after the East Hills side turnback implemented quarter of a century (or so) ago.  This turnback, and the similar ones on the North Shore line is about to fall into disuse.  It doesn't seem like QR have learned.

[HappyTrainGuy]

The Caboolture crossover isn't needed as trains already use all 3 platforms without many problems.

[somebody]

The Caboolture crossover isn't needed as trains already use all 3 platforms without many problems.

I think it is.  Enough trouble with adding additional services without constraints like that one.

[HappyTrainGuy]

The Caboolture crossover isn't needed as trains already use all 3 platforms without many problems.

I think it is.  Enough trouble with adding additional services without constraints like that one.

What trouble? Caboolture/Petrie gets by pretty good considering all platforms are bi directional. ex-Nambour/ex-Caboolture trains still use a platform while two Petrie-City trains are getting turned back. The issue that Petrie has is that out of service trains playing via signals from Lawnton to as far back as Carseldine/Zillmere.

This is what Petrie currently copes with.

P1: 6.50 Rosewood-Caboolture All Stations
P3: 6.58 Petrie-Richlands All Stations
P1: 7.03 Caboolture-Roma Street Express
P2: 7.04 Petrie-Roma Street All Stations
P1: 7.09 Nambour-Roma Street Express
P3: 7.10 Petrie-Roma Street All Stations
P1: 7.15 Caboolture-Roma Street Express
P2: 7.16 Petrie-Roma Street Express
P1: 7.20 Roma Street-Caboolture All Stations
P2: 7.21 Caboolture-Ipswich Express
P3: 7.22 Petrie-Roma Street All Stations
P1: 7.27 Caboolture-Roma Street Express
P1: 7.33 Nambour-Roma Street Express
P3: 7.28 Petrie-Richlands All Stations
P2: 7.34 Petrie-Roma Street All Stations
P1: 7.39 Caboolture-Roma Street Express
P3: 7.40 Petrie-Roma Street All Stations
P2: 7.45 Caboolture-Roma Street Express
P1: 7.50 Ipswich-Caboolture Express
P2: 7.51 Nambour-Ipswich Express (Does not stop at Petrie)
P3: 7.52 Petrie-Richlands All Stations

[somebody]

I refer to the culture "Can't add services because it would make it too hard for freight!"

[HappyTrainGuy]

I refer to the culture "Can't add services because it would make it too hard for freight!"

Depends how you look at it as different circumstances apply to freight trains such as CityTrains going to a different frequency, traveltrain, multiple lines etc. As it is there are no City-Nambour trains in morning peak because of the bottleneck created at Petrie and no extra counter peak Caboolture trains can be run in morning peak until Kippa Ring goes online.

[somebody]

As it is there are no City-Nambour trains in morning peak because of the bottleneck created at Petrie and no extra counter peak Caboolture trains can be run in morning peak until Kippa Ring goes online.

Does that show you the problem?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Adding a crossover won't fix that problem.

[BrizCommuter]

BrizCommuter agrees with Simon on adding that crossover at Petrie. Many crossover locations on QR's network defy logic. No wonder that QR can't operate a train more often than every 30 mins.  

This is a proper 3 track station layout!

[ozbob]

Melbourne is not averse to numerous  well placed crossovers etc. either ..

[somebody]

I think the blue one west of Darra is more urgent though.

Probably the blue one at Coopers Plains is also more urgent.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Push more for Darra/Coopers Plains as Caboolture and Petrie isn't important as it is already coping quite well with a train every couple minutes and with Petrie the Kippa Ring extension would be changing the whole area/crossovers anyway.

[somebody]

Push more for Darra/Coopers Plains as Caboolture and Petrie isn't important as it is already coping quite well with a train every couple minutes and with Petrie the Kippa Ring extension would be changing the whole area/crossovers anyway.

Also at Virginia IMO.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Maybe it might be more important than Darra due to increase in growth.... that said its still a while off and with other restrictions/limitations futher north such as the single track and the lack of a third rail from Petrie-Caboolture.

[somebody]

Maybe it might be more important than Darra due to increase in growth.... that said its still a while off and with other restrictions/limitations futher north such as the single track and the lack of a third rail from Petrie-Caboolture.

HTG attaches a Lawnton-Caboolture third track rider to the crossover enhancement project. Project cancelled.

Just fix the crossovers, and find who decided these projects should proceed without appropriate crossovers and fire them.  It never ceases to amaze me that a project with a 9 figure budget would have 1/3 of its benefit denied to save 1% or less.

[Mr X]

But this is Queensland 

[HappyTrainGuy]

I was referring to the increased growth from the north with duplication of the Nambour line, camos, Kippa Ring, increased freight etc with the expected times for it to be constructed/completed compared to what Darra currently has. Nothing about attaching it to the crossover project 

[somebody]

All the blue crossovers are needed now.  What is the point of bringing up things needed years down the track?

[HappyTrainGuy]

What's more realistic considering the anti rail government we have now  

[somebody]

What's more realistic considering the anti rail government we have now  

I would have thought fixing the crossovers was more realistic.

[HappyTrainGuy]

So was the small timetable modification for hte Nambour line back in July to reduce overcrowding

[somebody]

So we shouldn't ask them to go back and fix up their botch ups?  They keep making the same mistakes with new infrastructure.  Asking for new infrastructure seems to perpetuate the incompetence.

[mufreight]

There is a legitimate need for the crossover that Simon has suggested at Darra West but any gains from the instalation of that crossover are minimal without the addition of a further crossover between the up main and the down suburban on the station side of that crossover before the junction of the down suburban with the down Richlands line.

[SurfRail]

I'm just happy they recognise the need for them on the GCRT line - there seem to be plenty.

[BrizCommuter]

I'm just happy they recognise the need for them on the GCRT line - there seem to be plenty.

Is there a track map available for the GCRT?

[SurfRail]

I'm just happy they recognise the need for them on the GCRT line - there seem to be plenty.

Is there a track map available for the GCRT?

If you track down the property impact diagrams on the website, you can see the route plotted, including the planned placement of crossovers. 

http://goldcoastrapidtransit.qld.gov.au/the-project/resources/ - scroll down for "Property plans" for the PDFs.

The plans are still a bit out of date as they show the old Surfers route (via Ferny Ave, dogleg into Cypress Ave, then via Surfers Blvd) instead of the new route (all the way down Surfers Blvd).  I am also not 100% sure it accurately reflects what is happening at Wardoo St - but, it is otherwise pretty detailed.

I am not certain if they are planning to have a recovery vehicle in place (eg Adelaide, the only other Australian system near-comparable to GCRT, does not, while interestingly enough they have one for buses trapped on the O-Bahn...)

I will see about arranging a sit-down with GoldlinQ in the near future.

[BrizCommuter]

I'm just happy they recognise the need for them on the GCRT line - there seem to be plenty.

Is there a track map available for the GCRT?

If you track down the property impact diagrams on the website, you can see the route plotted, including the planned placement of crossovers. 

http://goldcoastrapidtransit.qld.gov.au/the-project/resources/ - scroll down for "Property plans" for the PDFs.

The plans are still a bit out of date as they show the old Surfers route (via Ferny Ave, dogleg into Cypress Ave, then via Surfers Blvd) instead of the new route (all the way down Surfers Blvd).  I am also not 100% sure it accurately reflects what is happening at Wardoo St - but, it is otherwise pretty detailed.

I am not certain if they are planning to have a recovery vehicle in place (eg Adelaide, the only other Australian system near-comparable to GCRT, does not, while interestingly enough they have one for buses trapped on the O-Bahn...)

I will see about arranging a sit-down with GoldlinQ in the near future.

Thanks for the link.

[somebody]

There is a legitimate need for the crossover that Simon has suggested at Darra West but any gains from the instalation of that crossover are minimal without the addition of a further crossover between the up main and the down suburban on the station side of that crossover before the junction of the down suburban with the down Richlands line.

You lost me.

Do you mean for inbound trains?  What operating pattern are you thinking which would benefit from that crossover?

[ozbob]

Would a double crossovers up from Milton be of value?  There once was such a set up, because of the siding at Milton.

The value would be for event specials.  They wouldn't have to run dead out to Sherwood for turnback.  Be useful for positioning trains for rapid clearance of pax as well.

[somebody]

Would a double crossovers up from Milton be of value?  There once was such a set up, because of the siding at Milton.

The value would be for event specials.  They wouldn't have to run dead out to Sherwood for turnback.  Be useful for positioning trains for rapid clearance of pax as well.

Might be easier to bi-di Roma St-Milton.

[BrizCommuter]

Would a double crossovers up from Milton be of value?  There once was such a set up, because of the siding at Milton.

The value would be for event specials.  They wouldn't have to run dead out to Sherwood for turnback.  Be useful for positioning trains for rapid clearance of pax as well.

Might be easier to bi-di Roma St-Milton.

Doubt it (without spending very large sums of money). Roma Street signalling is very complicated. A reversing siding west of Milton would be a "world class" thing to do.

Whilst on this subject, running extra services after a game has finished as opposed to during the penalty shoot-out when everyone is still in the stadium would also be "world class".

[somebody]

Would a double crossovers up from Milton be of value?  There once was such a set up, because of the siding at Milton.

The value would be for event specials.  They wouldn't have to run dead out to Sherwood for turnback.  Be useful for positioning trains for rapid clearance of pax as well.

Might be easier to bi-di Roma St-Milton.

Doubt it (without spending very large sums of money). Roma Street signalling is very complicated. A reversing siding west of Milton would be a "world class" thing to do.

Whilst on this subject, running extra services after a game has finished as opposed to during the penalty shoot-out when everyone is still in the stadium would also be "world class".

Further, having them leave when they are full, rather than waiting for their allotted time would also help.

Is there any room for a reversing siding?

[ozbob]

Not enough room now for a siding as such, but crossovers from down to up, both subs and mains would be handy.

For interest Milton 1915



Timber bound for D. G. Brims' sawmill, Milton, Brisbane, ca. 1915
Location:    Milton, Brisbane, Queensland; -27.46859,153.005295
Date:    ca. 1915
Creator:    Brims, Harriett Pettifore, 1864-1939
Description:    Timber logs being unloaded from railway trolleys at Milton, Brisbane, around 1915. The timber is probably bound for D. G. Brims and Sons' sawmill and plywood factory at Milton. In the middle distance (immediately above the last pile of logs) is another Brims business, the Brisbane Aircraft and Automotive Engineering workshop on Milton Road. The photograph was taken looking east towards the city, and was captured by early Queensland photographer Harriett Brims, D. G. Brims' wife.
Accession number:    87-9-2; 8151
View related images:    http://hdl.handle.net/10462/comp/98

[SurfRail]

Doubt it (without spending very large sums of money). Roma Street signalling is very complicated. A reversing siding west of Milton would be a "world class" thing to do.

The Subiaco events platform seems to work well.

There probably isn't as much an imperative for us to have one anywhere though.  The main operational benefit Transperth would get out of it is the ability to run 6-car B-sets there instead of being limited to 4-car A-sets at West Leederville - and the fact West Leederville is not a 4-platform station and is either a terminus or near a terminus/stabling yard (like Milton, Robina, Nerang etc).

[BrizCommuter]

The Subiaco events platform seems to work well.

Berlin's Olympic Stadium station also works well (all 10 platforms) 
http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=berlin+olympic+stadium&hl=en&ll=52.51229,13.2433&spn=0.003709,0.009087&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=44.229756,74.443359&vpsrc=6&hq=olympic+stadium&hnear=Berlin,+Germany&t=h&z=17

[ozbob]

Now, that is how to shunt pax in and out ... lol


Flemington racecourse -  works very well

--> http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-37.786956,144.90815&spn=0.001706,0.004128&t=h&z=19&vpsrc=6&lci=com.panoramio.all

Most of the Melbourne sporting venues/recreational venues have good rail access.

[somebody]

Hmm, Berlin has 10 platforms/3 tracks downstream.

@Sydney Olympic park there is a loop, splits into two tracks to run through the station, with 4 platforms - 1 island + 2 side.  Side platforms are boarding only, with manually operated platform edge doors (sort of) and only used in an event.  Citybound uses one side and westbound the other side.

Seems to work quite well.

[somebody]

Events at Suncorp and W'Gabba seem to work quite well here.  Ekka, BEC and QSAC not so well.

[BrizCommuter]

Getting back to seriousness, a double crossover to allow trains to reverse in 2 of Milton's platforms, whilst the other 2 platforms are used by through services would not be a bad idea. This would make for more efficient use of trains and crew.

Probably not the most urgent minor infrastructure project though!

[somebody]

Getting back to seriousness, a double crossover to allow trains to reverse in 2 of Milton's platforms, whilst the other 2 platforms are used by through services would not be a bad idea. This would make for more efficient use of trains and crew.

Probably not the most urgent minor infrastructure project though!

It is possible that the capex isn't justified by the opex savings.