UQ Lakes bus congestion

[Mr X]

This was originally meant to be done in APRIL 2009

Of course if the original bus stop design wasn't so cr%p in the first place we wouldn't be upgrading it so soon, would we?  

[#Metro]

Of course if the original bus stop design wasn't so cr%p in the first place we wouldn't be upgrading it so soon, would we?

In defence of TL / QT, I think they didn't realise what an unbridled success the UQ Lakes busway would be. Perhaps they thought that all they would handle would be what the old Route 407 UQ Rocket handled and maybe a bit more above that. I don't think they were expecting such a massive number of people to use the busway AND do connections.

Remember the old 109 travelled down Annerly Road. It is actually faster that way, however RAILBOT did lobby IIRC for the 109 to go via the busway, despite it being slightly slower, because it allows interchange at Park Road and is a direct, frequent service to PA Hospital.

Addition of Routes 139 and 29 and the extension of 192 just go to show how successful it is.

[Mr X]

Well they knew the 109 would be using it immediately, with the 169 and 209 planned to begin in 2007. I am sure I saw in one of the old network plans a mention of the 192 being extended to UQ. They also knew the Boggo Road busway was going in and as was the Eastern busway.
It just strikes me as a big foresight fail to build this infrastructure with the provision of only three initial bus stopping places and have to add extra stops ad hoc where they fit i.e. 192. Remember, users of this route from UQ have had to sit on the public footpath for the 1/2 hour between services since October 2008- in that time they didn't even bother to provide a seat to sit on or any shade or anything at all apart from a blade sign!

We can make excuses all we like, but this is just another example of our crappy "just band aid it and worry about the rest in 2020...!" form of planning that has become everyday custom in QLD!

[#Metro]

This is Queensland. We build everything. Twice.

[Mr X]

But you see my point, right? They built a bus station with the intention of having all 3 bus bays being used just 2 months after construction, with the knowledge more might be introduced in the future, and thus there is NO capacity for any new routes in the future! Who builds a multi million dollar bus station and then demolishes it 5 years later? It's like building a house knowing your wife is pregnant with only one bedroom, having a baby and making it sleep on the floor for 5 years before you burn down your house and rebuild.

The public don't help, either. Whenever someone proposes a LONG TERM solution with capacity for the FUTURE such as CRR, jonny doe from mt mee jumps up and down and has a whinge that "Labor is wasting money on rolls royce solutions!!!!!"! Thus the stupid politicians get bankrolled into looking for dumb bandaid solutions like the Cleveland Solution to appease jonny doe and these alternatives aren't really saving any money at all!

Seriously, the foot has so many rotting band aids on the wounds (Merivale Bridge, plywood stations on the NCL, single track on the NCL, track failures here there and everywhere) that soon they're going to have to chop the whole thing off!  

[somebody]

Would have been much nicer if the bus station was further from the river also.  People are expected to walk this now.

[#Metro]

Let's hope the lessons are learned:

*Build it right the first time*

We should be grateful that the station is being upgraded, but even then I still think it will be at capacity again in three years time.

People make mistakes, sometimes foresight is not perfect...

The system is a hands down success though. We should be happy!

[Mr X]

Would have been much nicer if the bus station was further from the river also.  People are expected to walk this now.

Problem is there isn't much space to put it, with the river on one side, sporting fields on another, the lakes on a third and the alumni gardens on a fourth side!

Perhaps if there had been some cooperation on UQ's part, we could have it tunnelling under the campus from Boggo Road and connecting to the other side at Chancellors Pl, with a station underground somewhere central to the campus <ducks>

[O_128]

Let's hope the lessons are learned:

*Build it right the first time*

We should be grateful that the station is being upgraded, but even then I still think it will be at capacity again in three years time.

People make mistakes, sometimes foresight is not perfect...

The system is a hands down success though. We should be happy!

Your joking aren't you, every piece of infrastructure over the last 10 years has not been good enough, all the roads are being upgraded again, the Ipswich motorway has been a construction zone for the last 10 years, the gold coast line had to be duplicated , the beenleigh line half assed upgraded, the sunshine coast duplication , the lack of 4th platform at oxley, not duplicating to ferny grove from the start. ARE THESE PEOPLE IDIOTS

[somebody]

Fill in the corner of the lake.

[#Metro]

Your joking aren't you, every piece of infrastructure over the last 10 years has not been good enough, all the roads are being upgraded again, the Ipswich motorway has been a construction zone for the last 10 years, the gold coast line had to be duplicated , the beenleigh line half assed upgraded, the sunshine coast duplication , the lack of 4th platform at oxley, not duplicating to ferny grove from the start. ARE THESE PEOPLE IDIOTS

Yes I know. The M1 and Bruce highway have been perpetually upgraded for as long as I can remember! It is ALWAYS being upgraded, when will it stop! This cost BILLIONS of dollars to do. But when it comes to cutting out a flat junction, or whatnot, no cigar!

[Mr X]

Don't get me started on the M1 upgrades   months/years of construction on the Pacific Mwy at Slacks Creek for ONE extra lane and a new bridge.. $300mil I recall? It still isn't finished.
Bruce Highway at Caboolture, again year of upgrade for a fancy fence and one extra lane and it still gets congested.
Ipswich Mwy has had lots of concrete being poured, lots of earthworks and big, fancy wide lanes. Problem? They only really added one lane to it as well and reduced the speed limit as a result (at least the train can now compete a little more HA HA)

Hate to be political, but there was success with the Pacific Mwy upgraded by the Borbidge LNP government in the 90s. The 10-12 lane section past the Logan Mwy merger never gets congested. But it's a road  

[achiruel]

ARE THESE PEOPLE IDIOTS

Short Answer: yes

Long Answer: the Government is trying to make everyone happy at once.  It would be much more efficient if they would only make some people happy at once, and others just realised they have to wait a couple of years.

e.g. Ferny Grove duplication should have been done in one hit.  Same with Springfield Line.  Gold Coast line it is okay to do stages but the stages are too small (e.g. Robina to Varsity Lakes - should have at least gone to Elanora).  NCL stage I should have gone to Landsborough.

etc.

[Golliwog]

As an aside, I thought another major part of why it was lobbied for the 109 to use the bus way rather than Annerley Rd was trip time reliability? Sometimes you would get it with no traffic and every green light, others you would have heaps of traffic.

I think what was really under estimated with UQ Lakes was the amount of interchange from rail.

[somebody]

As an aside, I thought another major part of why it was lobbied for the 109 to use the bus way rather than Annerley Rd was trip time reliability? Sometimes you would get it with no traffic and every green light, others you would have heaps of traffic.

Also to connect PA Hospital station with the CBD.

[Jonno]

Your joking aren't you, every piece of infrastructure over the last 10 years has not been good enough, all the roads are being upgraded again, the Ipswich motorway has been a construction zone for the last 10 years, the gold coast line had to be duplicated , the beenleigh line half assed upgraded, the sunshine coast duplication , the lack of 4th platform at oxley, not duplicating to ferny grove from the start. ARE THESE PEOPLE IDIOTS

Yes I know. The M1 and Bruce highway have been perpetually upgraded for as long as I can remember! It is ALWAYS being upgraded, when will it stop! This cost BILLIONS of dollars to do. But when it comes to cutting out a flat junction, or whatnot, no cigar!

Of cource the roads are having to be constantly upgraded but that has very little to with poor planning or population growth but a hell of a lot to do with "building more roads encourages the traffic to congest it""

[somebody]

Anyone see how well arrangements at UQ Lakes went today with the Semester starting for bus timetable purposes?

I think what was really under estimated with UQ Lakes was the amount of interchange from rail.

I disagree.  From what I've seen this isn't that much at all, given that UQ is an important destination.

[Golliwog]

Evidently Park Rd bound passengers are a big enough deal to warrant 29's every 5 minutes to free up the other routes.

[somebody]

Evidently Park Rd bound passengers are a big enough deal to warrant 29's every 5 minutes to free up the other routes.

What?  Based on Translink providing that service and nothing else?  In what way are Translink competent?  Buses leaving before they arrive in Ipswich (pre revamp) is one of my personal favourites.  Then there's the 393 truncation, unneeded 66 & 88, city stop locations etc, etc, etc

[#Metro]

Do you have evidence to counter that fact?

They would have introduced a dedicated bus because all the other buses must have been filling up with interchange pax.
Why else would they introduce a bus that only has four stops?

[somebody]

Do you have evidence to counter that fact?

They would have introduced a dedicated bus because all the other buses must have been filling up with interchange pax.
Why else would they introduce a bus that only has four stops?

There is no fact, only a supposition which is completely incorrect based on all reports.  If there was significant trouble getting from UQ Lakes to Boggo Rd, the 29 would have carried a number of pax in the past.  No one has reported the 29 ever carrying more than 10 pax.  Usual number when I see it is 0-3, even on the UQ side of Boggo Rd.

[#Metro]

There is no fact, only a supposition which is completely incorrect based on all reports.  If there was significant trouble getting from UQ Lakes to Boggo Rd, the 29 would have carried a number of pax in the past.  No one has reported the 29 ever carrying more than 10 pax.  Usual number when I see it is 0-3, even on the UQ side of Boggo Rd.

Huh? But didn't the 29 only come into effect today?

[somebody]

There is no fact, only a supposition which is completely incorrect based on all reports.  If there was significant trouble getting from UQ Lakes to Boggo Rd, the 29 would have carried a number of pax in the past.  No one has reported the 29 ever carrying more than 10 pax.  Usual number when I see it is 0-3, even on the UQ side of Boggo Rd.

Huh? But didn't the 29 only come into effect today?

No.  29 ran last semester from the Eastern Busway opening.

[SurfRail]

Do you have evidence to counter that fact?

They would have introduced a dedicated bus because all the other buses must have been filling up with interchange pax.
Why else would they introduce a bus that only has four stops?

There is no fact, only a supposition which is completely incorrect based on all reports.  If there was significant trouble getting from UQ Lakes to Boggo Rd, the 29 would have carried a number of pax in the past.  No one has reported the 29 ever carrying more than 10 pax.  Usual number when I see it is 0-3, even on the UQ side of Boggo Rd.

"All reports" would include the load data, which TransLink have (and we do not).  Obviously in a more enlightened system we would have that to work with, but I don't think it reflects well on us to simply assume something based on what are effectively anecdotes. 

What we should argue about is whether this is the best way of solving the problem instead of assuming there isn't one when TransLink, reticent as they are to up frequencies outside the peak, perceive one.

[Golliwog]

The problem never was for pax getting to Boggo Rd. We have a truck load of buses that would take us there. The problem they identified was for pax on the other routes not getting a bus because Boggo Rd pax were taking all the spots. There is actually normally a large number of pax from every train in the morning

[somebody]

"All reports" would include the load data, which TransLink have (and we do not). 

I think it is fairly obvious what I was saying.

What we should argue about is whether this is the best way of solving the problem instead of assuming there isn't one when TransLink, reticent as they are to up frequencies outside the peak, perceive one.

There is no known problem with people being unable to get between UQ Lakes and Boggo Rd.  There is a known problem with people being unable to get between Boggo Rd and Buranda (refer to the OP).  This does nothing for these people.  Obviously this has been alleviated with the 209 now going via Buranda, but I believe that the problem is still real, and mostly solved due to people giving up on using Translink services.

Since when is it surprising for Translink to "be pro-active" while ignoring known needs?  77, 88 are both examples of the former, and I don't need to say that the 393 is an example of the latter.

The problem never was for pax getting to Boggo Rd. We have a truck load of buses that would take us there. The problem they identified was for pax on the other routes not getting a bus because Boggo Rd pax were taking all the spots. There is actually normally a large number of pax from every train in the morning

Key word bolded.

But people getting off the 169 etc at Boggo Rd isn't a problem as it allows people to actually get on those buses who work at the Ecosciences Precinct!!

Surely all can see this.  <weary>

[Golliwog]

Yes, and i don't expect the 29 to do massive amounts for people going Boggo Rd to UQ, though it will help. There are times during semester where you easily wait for 5 or so buses because not that many get off. But where I expect it to really help is pax going UQ to Boggo Rd, which was the main point of my previous post. These people now have a pretty much dedicated route so that people trying to get to the southern suburbs or the city can actually get on their route. This is also enforced by putting the 29 at stop D once the upgrade is complete to make it less attractive for Boggo Rd pax to take up spots on the other routes.

[somebody]

Yes, and i don't expect the 29 to do massive amounts for people going Boggo Rd to UQ, though it will help. There are times during semester where you easily wait for 5 or so buses because not that many get off. But where I expect it to really help is pax going UQ to Boggo Rd, which was the main point of my previous post. These people now have a pretty much dedicated route so that people trying to get to the southern suburbs or the city can actually get on their route. This is also enforced by putting the 29 at stop D once the upgrade is complete to make it less attractive for Boggo Rd pax to take up spots on the other routes.

So what about people trying to get on buses at Park Rd towards Buranda?

The fact remains that Park Rd-Buranda-Garden City is underserved, at least in peak hour.  Only increasing fares seem likely to reduce demand so that it matches the supply.

I despise and loath the 29 increase plan, and remain baffled by most of the posts in this thread.  Have posters seen/used the 29 ever?

[Golliwog]

I have used it a few times heading to Park Rd, but it used stop B and the other routes usually came first, and more often, so I caught them. I remember roughly 10 being on it which wasn't bad for early afternoon.

As for Park Rd->Buranda pax that remains to be seen, but remember they are also meant to be putting the high capacity buses on route 169. Plus, I hardly notice that many pax waiting to do such trips, though that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. They could also catch a 29 to the PAH and get on there when others get off or walk from PAH to Buranda. It really isn't far.

[Mr X]

Have posters seen/used the 29 ever?

+1!

Big air parcel and making it every 5mins won't help one iota. A big reason is that it leaves UQ Lakes after the 109/169/209.

[somebody]

As for Park Rd->Buranda pax that remains to be seen, but remember they are also meant to be putting the high capacity buses on route 169. Plus, I hardly notice that many pax waiting to do such trips, though that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. They could also catch a 29 to the PAH and get on there when others get off or walk from PAH to Buranda. It really isn't far.

Err, I think it is already seen re: Park Rd->Buranda.  Not that many get off at PAH, and I'd hardly call that an acceptable set up.  It's like using a 345 Roma St-Normanby and a 393 Normanby-QUT KG.

I've certainly seen a number of people waiting at Boggo Rd/Park Rd towards PAH.  Not so much the other direction.

[Golliwog]

Seeing more waiting for PAH bound routes makes sense as for UQ bound ones any bus is your bus, but the other way you generally need to get a specific route, hence waiting for that one. It doesn't really signify a problem unless they can't fit on the bus. And I still expect some people to use routes other than the 29 to do UQ to park rd trips for social reasons. I've waited for a 169 and caught that so I could talk with a mate for a bit longer and I doubt I'm the only person that's done that.

[ozbob]

What would everyones opinion be about merging the 66 and 109? I think that would be a very sensible move.

We and others have been suggesting that for years ...

eg. 1 Aug 2009: SEQ: New busways a welcome addition! http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2553.0

[somebody]

I catch the 169 to uni every time i go to uni, and it is VERY rare for me to see someone get off at Boggo Road, usually if they do its the person who gets on at the PA hospital and gets off at Boggo Road to transfer to a train.

Interesting.  I wonder how much this is due to poor services from the Ecosciences Precinct opening and people abandoning PT for illegal parking, how much (if any) is due to the times you are travelling.  Translink's advice including using the train to connect between Park Rd and Buranda, although I doubt there is much take up of this option.

I have seen it full a few times, but only a few, most of the times its a waste of a service. Shouldn't have been introduced IMO. A service to Wooloongabba isn't required IMO, unless it was to continue travelling to another destination, for example Bulimba. A 29 to Bulimba would increase frequency in the area, and even though its travelling to UQ, it would enable interchange options at Wooloongabba for city bound pax. In saying that if you are going to extend the 29 to Bulimba, you might aswell just BUZ the 230, but thats another discussion for another topic...
Agreed, sometimes if my mates are on the 209 I will catch the 209 to Buranda and change over to a bus to Garden City, or they will get 169 vice versa.

Seen it full?  First report I've had of that.  Fully agree it needs to be extended to be useful.

What would everyones opinion be about merging the 66 and 109? I think that would be a very sensible move.

I think the 66 should never have been introduced.

[Golliwog]

I agree that an extension should be looked at for the 29, but don't have any real problem with it being a short route. Provided of course that it performs as they want it to and takes pax off the other UQ routes. If it works then I expect a decent saving in terms of bus-km travelled compared to putting more buses on the other routes.

[O_128]

Just got on a 29 at uq lakes at approximately 4:05! Full standing load. About 3/4 got off at boggo road. Uq has lots of signage and staff encouraging people to use 29! Still long lines for 109, 169 and 209!

The whole place is a mess, this should he finished. And can the idiots who use the 109 to boggo use the 29!!

[somebody]

Just got on a 29 at uq lakes at approximately 4:05! Full standing load. About 3/4 got off at boggo road. Uq has lots of signage and staff encouraging people to use 29! Still long lines for 109, 169 and 209!

This whole plan still allows no one to get on the busway bound services at Boggo Rd.  Even if it is working to some degree.  Oh well, maybe there is no demand there in peak anyway.  What do you expect after failing to solve the problems for so long?

[Golliwog]

Except that some people are still catching the 169/139/209 from UQ to Park Rd, so there are a few spots.

[Golliwog]

Just an update on how this is going. The operations at UQ Lakes are not as bad as I expected, though can't wait till it's all over. Route 29 seems to be well used. Near full seated loads most times I've used it with a few cases with people standing as well. Pretty sure I'm yet to catch it with single digit pax numbers. Still some using the other routes to get to Park Rd. Everytime I've seen this it's only 1 or 2 per bus. Pax for Boggo Rd/ PAH seem to all line up for the 29, and may sometimes move across to one of the other routes if they pull in first and theres only a small line of pax for that route.

[SurfRail]

I know Simon has previously reported low loadings on the 29 - perhaps the good turnout is a function of the upgrade combined with the current stand arrangements?