88 Bus Route was Rumour: 88 8 mile plains to Indro

[somebody]

As TT sort of said, the 199 is not cross town.

The thing is if this Route was truely about providing quick Cross Town Travel the service would not stop in the CBD it would stay on the Riverside Expressway which in turn would save about 5 Mins from the journey time.

The other possibility would be to use George St between the Margaret St and Ann St ramps heading towards Indro, and North Quay/William St away from Indro and serve the Parliament end of town.  But I do not think such a route would be needed now.

[somebody]

Obviously, the major reason for this route in the Indro side is to reduce complaints about the 444.  I've gone looking at the Thredbo/Warren presentation and the CPTF/Warren presentation, and the only graph for the 444 + other Indro routes finish at 2007.  The 444 was separated from the 425/430/435/450/453/454/460 on the opening of the INB in 2008.

Is there any way we could get our hands on those statistics?  Maybe a RTI request, I guess?

[#Metro]

I agree with that, somebody. It would also be interesting to know which BUZ routes were breaking even or making a surplus, and what the latest level of patronage was for each service over time. IMHO it is not necessary to see the financials in numbers, just the words "break even" or "surplus" would do.

Of course, all of this would be at BT's pleasure I would think. But I think it needs to be confirmed that higher frequency = lower subsidy because more passengers use it. That information would do this.

[Otto]

Of course, all of this would be at BT's pleasure I would think. But I think it needs to be confirmed that higher frequency = lower subsidy because more passengers use it. That information would do this.

Correction.. BT only collects revenue on behalf of TransLink. All revenue figures are collated by TransLink for the Queensland Government.

[#Metro]

So it should be accessible by state FOI then?

[ozbob]

Advertisement Brisbane mX 29th November 2010

[#Metro]

I will have a look at this route later this week!

[somebody]

What about the BBC, Auchenflower and Wesley Hospital stops, are they not serviced?  I could go along with mentioning only suburbs except for them leaving out Auchenflower.

[Golliwog]

I'm interested to see when they put the timetable up.

[AnonymouslyBad]

Why is this route stopping at King George Square and Roma Street? I thought skipping the CBD to save time was the whole point. Unless they found there wasn't enough of a time saving - which I could understand in the PM peak.

So it should be accessible by state FOI then?

I think revenue information has been released under FOI in the past, though they black-out some figures. Not sure if it's ever been broken down quite like that though.

[somebody]

Weekday daytimes see 16 buses/hour on the city-Indro corridor:
425: 2/hour
430: 1/hour
433: 1/hour
435: 1/hour
444: 4/hour
445: 1/hour
453: 2/hour
454: 2/hour
460: 2/hour

However, average waits at any given city stop are still around 7.5 mins, except for Adelaide St which is far longer.

Once route 88 kicks in, the average wait at KGSBS will be 4.5 mins.  Which is still worse than having 8/hour on the route with an even frequency.

[longboi]

What are others thoughts on re-routing the 444 via Jephson/Croydon and Milton Rd? It would extend the coverage of high-frequency services further west and go some way to curbing the bus overload on Coro.

[Golliwog]

TL finally fixed the timetable link. At first it wasn't there at all, then if you search for the 88 it would turn up, but clicking it gave you a 404 page not found error, but now here it is: http://translink.com.au/resources/travel-information/services-and-timetables/timetables/101213_88.pdf

[somebody]

What are others thoughts on re-routing the 444 via Jephson/Croydon and Milton Rd? It would extend the coverage of high-frequency services further west and go some way to curbing the bus overload on Coro.

Would be politically more wise to do so with the 88.  It would also give the 88 a reason for existing.

I expect it would be better, but there are a number of lights on Jephson St also, so it may not be a panacea.

[longboi]

What are others thoughts on re-routing the 444 via Jephson/Croydon and Milton Rd? It would extend the coverage of high-frequency services further west and go some way to curbing the bus overload on Coro.

Would be politically more wise to do so with the 88.  It would also give the 88 a reason for existing.

I expect it would be better, but there are a number of lights on Jephson St also, so it may not be a panacea.

The lights aren't a major issue compared to a second western high frequency spine IMO.

[Stillwater]

In Canberra, where clockwise and anticlockwise services run, the bus nos. and arrows are painted on the bus stop apron to assist those who don't want to think.

[somebody]

The lights aren't a major issue compared to a second western high frequency spine IMO.

It also gives said routes a reason to use KGSBS.

[longboi]

The lights aren't a major issue compared to a second western high frequency spine IMO.

It also gives said routes a reason to use KGSBS.

That too 

[Otto]

So route 88 is the first PrePaid service to operate on weekends !!

[somebody]

So route 88 is the first PrePaid service to operate on weekends !!

Second.  CityGlider was the first.

[Otto]

So route 88 is the first PrePaid service to operate on weekends !!

Second.  CityGlider was the first.

arr yes.... How could I forget !!

A little side note : I was driving 1808 ( Clem 7 Bus ) on route 192 along Montague Rd this week... As 1808 is blue, pax were thinking I was doing the Glider service whilst some 192 pax waved me on !!!  

[O_128]

On monday ill trial the 88 going to 8 mile plains and then the 111 and 444 back just to see the the difference

[ozbob]

I intend to go on the 88 tomorrow from Indooroopilly to Buranda for a run.

Departure stop for 88 at Indooroopilly is Musgrave Rd Stop 24 app Station Rd.

[ozbob]

Well,  what a waste the 88!

Attempted to board the P88 service at stop 24 G1370 via the rear door as proudly advertised by TransLink and promptly got whacked with a fixed fare.  The driver was non plussed, so he shut the rear door.

Between Indooroopilly and Buranda, we briefly joined by a single pax who travelled between stop 19 and 14.  No pax on at Roma St or KGS, so when I left the bus at Buranda it was empty.  

Coming back left Buranda on G1362 at 11.13am.  Nil pax onboard except for me, and one pax boarded at Roma St. Cribb St + 2 pax, Auchenflower +1.  So total pax of 5 when we got to Indooroopilly.  Just in time to catch the 468 so I thought.  But it either left early or was a no show.  So I have hoofed it down to rail, and 12.18 is running around 7 minutes late.

The 88 western leg will be a nightmare.  I think all the concerns are well founded.  This doesn't add much at all, there were much better other options.

Farce!

Footnote:  SMU265 turned up at 12.25pm, makes up for the missing 468 ...  

[ozbob]

Day 1 for the P88

Indooroopilly stop 24 Musgrave Rd






Buranda Busway P88 bus arriving that I travelled on to Indooroopilly.



Photographs R Dow 13th December 2010

[somebody]

I'm surprised that the loads are bad.  I expected a fair few people to be using it

[ozbob]

I saw about 4 or 5 P88 services in my travels.  I think the most pax was on the leg Roma St to Indooroopilly that I was on, 4.  Most of the others were empty or maybe one or two pax.  Had a recent report from a member who is on a P88 from town, only one pax besides himself.

Just submitted an online claim for the fixed fare received when attempting rear boarding.  I boarded at the front for the return leg.

I managed to do all trips as a continuation despite the fixed fare.  When I got that I went to the front and touched on there and it responded as a continuation of travel.

468 Pannard to Indooroopilly.  P88 Indooroopilly to Buranda.  P88 Buranda to Indooroopilly.  Rail Indooroopilly to Oxley, total of 4 trips.

It is a strange time of the year to be introducing such a service, real test wont be till late January 2011, shortly before the high frequency rail from Indooroopilly kicks in  .  The bus interchange at Indooroopilly is a bit of a shocker as well ...  

[ozbob]

On the pax figures today, it is not the Ipswich buses that should be converted to Flexi-Link but maybe the 88 ...   

Yes I know early days, but the public transport rich get richer, whilst the public transport poor get poorer .. 

Shocker!

Why would you sit in the 88 outbound/inbound in peak when you have a high frequency rail service next to it?   

The 88 might be useful south side, but the western side is just burning resources that could be used much more effectively elsewhere, for example Ipswich and the Great Circle Line, improved frequency particularly Saturday and Sunday services.

Tell me, what is wrong with the planners?

[somebody]

Tell me, what is wrong with the planners?

I think they are more interested in the number of complaints than the amount of patronage.  Almost everything about everything that is done in QLD's PT system is a confirmation of this, IMO.

Start tying the CEOs pay to patronage growth, and things could change.

[#Metro]

Why would you sit in the 88 outbound/inbound in peak when you have a high frequency rail service next to it? 

The 88 might be useful south side, but the western side is just burning resources that could be used much more effectively elsewhere, for example Ipswich and the Great Circle Line, improved frequency particularly Saturday and Sunday services.

I don't know, but I can only guess:

Transfers (i.e. integration) = avoid like the plague, forcing people to sit in Coronation drive (is there a 'congestion penalty' applied to Coro drive routes???)
No bus-rail interchange at Indooroopilly
Great Circle line is seen as a orbital route, there seems to be this idea that nobody will catch non-CBD bound trips; self-perpetuating cycle of low quality-low patronage. Perth's 98/99 circular bus route and Melbourne's SmartBus don't seem to have this problem. I can't see why Brisbane would be any different.

LESS routes with HIGHER frequency is the way to go IMHO. BUZ the 450!!!

[#Metro]

Problem #1: The route 88 bus stop is not integrated with the rest of the buses at the Indooroopilly bus platforms. It is out of the way, down the road.

On the way to the CBD, there hardly is anyone on it. The bus passes stops with lots of people but nobody hailes it. Maybe as time goes on, awareness will grow.

Congestion points at the approach to Toowong, Coronation Drive (heavy traffic), the off ramp into the Roma Street busway. More pax got on at Roma Street, King George Square.

IMHO this bus is probably taking existing passengers from the 111 at Roma Street and King George Square. There needs to be more bus priority (T2 lanes etc) on Coro and Toowong and the Captain Cook Bridge. Not many people in the CBD are going to catch this bus because most of them can take an express trip by simply walking to a street stop and catching a rocket service from there.

During peak hour, I could maybe see some reason for this service. However the bit through the CBD does slow the route down considerably. It might be faster to simply interchange from 111 to 444 at KGS. IMHO a BUZ 450 would have been a better thing. Oh well.

[STB]

I caught route 88 today from Buranda to Indooroopilly at 12:50pm ex Buranda.  I was the only one on board when I boarded, one person got on at KGSBS and then got off at Toowong.  The driver was quite chatty which was quite a change knowing BT.  Little bit worried with it terminating out of the way of the main interchange, you wouldn't even know it existed where it terminates at Indooroopilly.

[O_128]

Can i ask why it doesn't terminate at the main interchange?

[#Metro]

Little bit worried with it terminating out of the way of the main interchange, you wouldn't even know it existed where it terminates at Indooroopilly.

I agree! Its hidden down the street.
I think they put it there because the main interchange might have too many buses as it is already.

Roll on the high frequency trains!
Indooroopilly might have to get a bigger bus interchange IMHO.

[Golliwog]

Can i ask why it doesn't terminate at the main interchange?

What is the current capacity of the interchange? How full is it? I get that it can't use platform C as it would be near impossible to get across to do its turnaround in such a short distance, but the traffic lights are set up to allow a right turn to head back to going inbound on Moggill Rd (the dodgey location of the interchange in the first place is another story altogether). I do note that the both buses Ozbob caught are Garden City buses, which also houses some artics does it not? Perhaps the plan is to have the rotue run by artics which can't use the undercover interchange?

[somebody]

Perhaps the plan is to have the rotue run by artics which can't use the undercover interchange?

Nup.  The stops used in KGSBS cannot handle artics.  Unless they are planning to move it to the 111 stop at a later date.

ATDB reports that Garden City will do all the 88s.

The 599 seems to handle the "dodgy" turn from Indooroopilly C, but you'd want to use B heading inbound.  I can live with the terminus, it's not serving the interchange heading inbound that I can't stand.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

14th December 2010

Off with a fizz

Greetings,

I ventured out on the first day of the route 88 bus services yesterday.

Despite being advertised by TransLink as rear door loading capable, when I attempted to board the P88 bus (G1370) at Indooroopilly via the rear door I was whacked with a fixed fare penalty.  So I have had to claim that back, not a good start.

The use of bus stop 24 in Musgrave Road Indooroopilly for the 88, away from the Indooroopilly bus interchange is also perplexing.

Of the 88 services I travelled on, and observed yesterday by members there was no pax or occasionally one or two, except for one service that had the grand total of 5.   I would suggest that maybe the 88 should be flexi-linked, not the buses at Ipswich.

Many with an interest in public transport are shaking their heads at the introduction of the 88.  There are far more pressing community needs.

The mediocre start yesterday for the 88 confirms our fears.

Details --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4772.msg42477#msg42477

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

On 11/12/2010 3:55 AM, RAIL Back On Track Admin wrote:
Greetings,

We really do wonder about the continuing bus fantasy by Government and TransLink as demonstrated in the route 88 bus.  This bus service is to start on Monday 13th December.  Adding to the already well serviced and hopelessly congested western road bus routes from Roma St to Indooroopilly on the western leg, it completely ignores the fact that soon Indooroopilly rail will have a 15 minute out of peak rail service around the clock, and very high frequency express services during peak.

The community has been offered consultation on the new rail timetables for 2011.  It is not as though TransLink doesn't know that the plan is to give Indooroopilly high frequency rail services.  There has been no indication of what the bus arrangements will be to properly utilise the frequency and capacity on rail once the new timetable is implemented, particularly at Darra and Indooroopilly rail stations and this in itself cause for much concern.

There is no better demonstration of what is wrong with public transport planning and policy in south-east Queensland than the 88 bus route.

The good citizens at Ipswich suffer, the public transport poor continue to loose services, the public transport rich cup overflows ...

Much better bang for buck would be to extend the Great Circle Bus line to 7 day a week operation with improved frequency.

Yours in continuing bewilderment,

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

==================

Media release 25 November 2010

SEQ: Route 88 has few positives and many negatives ...

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters has said the announcement of a new bus service, the Route 88 has largely gone unheralded (1,2). Route 88 is a high frequency, pre-paid service between Indooroopilly and Eight Mile Plains via the Captain Cook Bridge and South East Busway.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The route for the 88 bus route is duplicating many existing public transport services. It will also add to bus and road congestion on the western part from the City to Indooroopilly. Indooroopilly railway station will soon have a 15 minute around the clock out of peak train frequency, including weekends and a much better peak frequency for trains and express services during peaks.  Is the Route 88 western leg really needed?"

"Currently, the weekend 444 runs to Moggill are crowded by people who wish to travel from the city to locations between Milton and Indooroopilly.  This is because it is the only route to Indooroopilly with an even and reasonable frequency, and no other routes share its city stop location.  The former poor outbound routing for the western routes via Grey St from Queen St Bus Station also served as a disincentive.  While a number of routes leave out of Queen St Bus Station for Indooroopilly, this stop is unattractive due to the inconsistent weekend frequency (3,4).  These routes are considerably less congested than the 444.  RAIL Back On Track calls for the consolidation of the routes in a single location, most likely Queen St Bus Station.  The frequency from Queen St Bus Station isn't as bad on weekday daytimes."

"Heading inbound, the 444 is preferred if heading to the city over the other "express" routes, due to the "express" routes needing to deviate into the Cultural Centre, and also it needs to use the bus turnaround facility, which is slow.  A recent poll of RAIL Back On Track members had a strong majority in favour of a revised inbound routing via Skew St and Roma St Bus Station (5).  This makes the most sense if the old Boomerang St inbound stop is reinstated and a new indented stop created on the slip lane from the Go Between Bridge for outbound services.  RAIL Back On Track is unsure why both of these things didn't occur on the opening of the bridge.  The other alternative to running inbound via Roma St is to run via the Go Between Bridge and no longer serve the Cribb St stop."

"The other problem is that even if routes run to time, they are still bunched up from Indooroopilly when heading inbound.  This means that there are gaps in the service followed by 3 buses to the city arriving within a few minutes (6)."

"The SE busway component of the service is largely good, however the southbound reliability is likely to be poor if the route has just come from Coronation Drive.  For best use of available funds, this should replace the 160 service."

"The failure to move forward with a truly integrated public transport network is no better highlighted than with the 88 bus route. Extending the Great Circle Bus route to a 7 day operation with increased frequency or a BUZ 100 would be a better investment of funds in our opinion."

References:

1.   http://www.translink.com.au/travel-information/service-updates/bulletin/1289964278

2.   http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4772.0

3.   http://jp.translink.com.au/travel-information/stops-and-stations/stop-timetable?stopName=Qsbs%20Stop%20B1

4.   http://jp.translink.com.au/travel-information/stops-and-stations/stop-timetable?stopName=Qsbs%20Stop%20B4

5.   http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4501.0

6.   http://jp.translink.com.au/travel-information/stops-and-stations/stop-timetable?stopName=Indooroopilly%20B

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[#Metro]

Nup.  The stops used in KGSBS cannot handle artics.  Unless they are planning to move it to the 111 stop at a later date.

Really? Why not?

[ozbob]

It is unlikely that any media will run anything against the 88 whilst TransLink are paying for the route 88 ads in various publications.

Sad but true. 

[Golliwog]

Nup.  The stops used in KGSBS cannot handle artics.  Unless they are planning to move it to the 111 stop at a later date.

Really? Why not?

Its the screen doors isn't it? Not all of the stops are set up with them spaced for an artic.