Smart state transport related blunders current and recent

[ozbob]

http://www.chessmotifs.com/images/Chess-Designs/Blunders-Made-Me-Smarter.jpg

Please feel free to post what you consider to be 'smart' state transport related blunders current and recent ... blunders might be corrected in future projects.

To start:

* Failure to build platforms at proper heights when upgraded, notably Indooroopilly, Darra.

* Failure to electrify the UP SUB line fully from Corinda to Darra.

* Failure to agree to build Ellen Grove and Springfield Lakes stations as green field.  

* Failure to put in place proper bus priority on a diabolical road network.

* Failure to put a kiss and ride drop off at Oxley in Ardoyne Road.

* Failure to incorporate a bus interchange at Indooroopilly railway station as part of the upgrade.

* Failure to build the 4th platform at Oxley.  Easily done as suspended platform when construction in full pelt.

* Failure to continue with the duplication of the Sunshine Coast line from Beerburrum to Landsborough.

* Building a park and ride at Dinmore on the alignment for the third line.

* Building residential developments with streets too narrow for buses and other emergency vehicles ...

[#Metro]

* Failure to get free GoCards out before the price rise
* Failure to get new services online before or immediately after the price rise
* Failure to fix the frequency
* Failure to put in CRR like was recommended in 1970, now Merivale Bridge in am peak is at capacity, shh, don't tell anyone!

[david]

- Failure to incorporate a bus-rail interchange at Altandi during the height of the Salisbury to Kuraby third track project

[brad C]

Hear are a couple that come to mind:
- failure to continue the duplication of the ferny grove line beyond keperra when the contractors for the mitchelton-keperra duplication were on the job.
- failure to revise timetables for the caboolture line where some service frequencies have remained unaltered since 27th september 1993!!
- failure to schedule IMU services on short north nambour services particularly of a weekend - only today I witnessed faithful old EMUs on the midday run to Nambour. This could be rectified easily by a swift kick to the posterior  - there is no excuse for this with lenty of IMUs now in revenue service.
- failure to look at air conditioning modifications to the SMU markII sets - these installations are so poorly designed they are a WH&S issue, particularly with full loads in summer.
- failure to include Dakabin station on the station upgrading rollout phase 1.
This station has no staff or station building, no reticulated water, no toilets, and no proper parking areas on the eastern side - it is 3rd world standard.
- failure to complete the missing Lawnton to Petrie link in the northern triplication. This  creates its own bottleneck at both AM and PM peaks.
- the withdrawal of the 3900 electric locomotives from north coast freight and travel train services, and the substitution with dirty noisy diesels.
The electrification of the NCL sees just 2 trains a day beyond Gympie North and represents a poor return for taxpayers funds that were expended on this ambitious project in the 1980s.
- failure to align peak services with the 'peak' fare bandwiths. Why wait to 1900hrs for off peak fares to kick in again when the services revert to the lousy 30 minute frequencies at 1800hrs for most lines.
- failure to give commuters fare incentives and relief from the current rip-offs that prvail.
They did it in the past with 4 for 1 fares for school holidays, gold coin week ends, 30% off peak fareas..
Now you get a lousy 10% off peak and have to wait for generally 5 days before the 50% fare reduction kicks in.
I am insulted when I am referred to as a customer when I have no rights to demand a refund if I am not satisfied with the standards of service, nor am I enticed into use of a product through discounts, specials and super deals that I would be expected to recieve as a customer of a commercial establishment. But wait ... I do get muffins and water (no steak knives).

[somebody]

Ouch, ozbob!  Seems like you are feeling just as frustrated as me and mufreight.

Mitchelton-Keperra and Keperra-Ferny Grove duplications as two projects rather than one.  (brad C added this too)

Reluctance to have a reasonable approach to train timetabling
Reluctance to implement a reasonable train frequency
Reluctance to combine 66 & 109
Reluctance to do anything much positive at all
Willingness to make retrograde steps such as separating CBD bus stops for routes which should be together

- Failure to incorporate a bus-rail interchange at Altandi during the height of the Salisbury to Kuraby third track project

You can change between bus and rail here reasonably easily can't you?  I just don't see the percentage in this one.  You still need to serve Mains Rd north of Altandi with the buses.  What harm is done by giving people a single seat journey rather than expecting them to wait for a train which only comes every 30 minutes?

[BrizCommuter]

Failure to run 66 to RBWH until 7 months after the RBWH station opened.

March 2008 Ferny Grove timetable complete and utter FAIL!

Failure to electrify the 4th track between Corinda and Darra.

Failure to even consider a 4th track in the Beenleigh/Gold Coast Line corridor.

Failure to duplicate from Mitchelton to Ferny Grove in one project.

Failure to increase train services on many lines after huge fare increase.

Failure to introduce new timetables in 2010.

Failure to offer attractive Go Card fare structure.

Failure to offer free method of applying for Go Card refunds for ages.

Failure to maintain rail patronage on many lines in 2010.

Failure to even change a flickering lightbulb on trains.

the list goes on...

[mufreight]

Failure to build a full double junction at Darra West with the existing arrangement effectively being a single track junction that will have to be completely replaced which will cause considerable disruption at considerable cost to enable the construction of either a third or possibly fourth future track to Redbank.
More money wasted to avoid spending it now.
The construction of the new stabling facilities at Redbank at the eastern end of the old south yard which will in time need to be removed for the construction of a new station to allow for a third track.  Far more cost effective to construct the stabling facility at Wulkuraka where there is also room for a new maintenance facility to supplement or possibly in time replace Mayne.
 

[ozbob]

* Not addressing the Sunshine Coast line timetable ....  

* Running 3 car sets where 6 are needed eg. Sunshine Coast and Cleveland line ...  at least this will make the journey a little more comfortable for the run in from Nambour  ...

Gee it is long list ..  

[ozbob]

I prefer to think of myself as a passenger.  Maybe I am old fashioned, but passengers are passengers.  Customers are folks that used to go to and watch/listen to 'Pick a box' ...  

howdy customers!

[somebody]

Great points BrizCommuter!

Failure to build a full double junction at Darra West

What do you mean here?

This forum had a thread on replacing Mayne a while ago.  It isn't a starter, even if Caboolture/Beenleigh/Robina stabling is increased and Thorneside stabling established.  Mayne is needed for Ferny Grove and Shorncliffe train's storage.  You aren't really suggesting those trains come all the way from Redbank or Wulkaraka?

[ozbob]

The stabling at Redbank is to support the high frequency timetable planned.  I too think that would be better at Wulkaraka as with the planned population increases the trains will need to be running in from Ipswich rather than Redbank ...

[somebody]

Wulkaraka is because Ipswich stabling can't be expanded?

Do we know what is happening at Redbank?  Is stabling being added on the north or east of the workshops with triplication to Redbank and 3 (not 4) platforms?

[ozbob]

This is an interesting if disappointing list of blunders as perceived by posters.  What prompted me to post this thread was the results in the TransLink Tracker

Reliability and frequency bus is just nudging 60,  rail about 59, 60 considered to be satisfactory.  This is rather a sad indictment, best practise is considered to be 75 or above.  This is disturbing as bus is touted as world class. If ever there was a case for a frequency revolution here it is!

Clearly, users of the public transport system are not happy.  Some of the reasons are in this thread no doubt.  No one expects personal door to door transport every 5 minutes, but clearly there are some major issues to be sorted.

:bi

[ozbob]

Forgot to list Oxley bus stop B as a classic example of lack of attention to detail  .. taxpayers funds seem to be unlimited and expendable to fix up stuff ups, the subway ramp is still closed as works proceed to make it compliant ....

[p858snake]

The planning for the FG station upgrade so far...

[#Metro]

You can change between bus and rail here reasonably easily can't you?  I just don't see the percentage in this one.  You still need to serve Mains Rd north of Altandi with the buses.  What harm is done by giving people a single seat journey rather than expecting them to wait for a train which only comes every 30 minutes?

Not in practice. Mains Rd is very busy, and at this location getting across that road is a bit hard.
People travelling to Beenleigh and vice versa should be able to interchange easily.

[#Metro]

Perhaps blunders can be avoided next time around? ---> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4405.0

Please comment 

[WTN]

Mains Rd can be a great carpark from about 3:30 onwards. Terrible at times.

I'll add to the list of failures:
Car centric planning
  - long narrow cul de sacs in some suburbs
  - inadequate footpaths in some areas
  - driveways and carparks dwarfing/replacing walkways on many properties
  - traffic lights that give car priority, forcing pedestrians to wait at lights
  - Clem7 tunnel
  - massive road building in airport area instead of airtrain/public transport upgrades
  - busway-Captain Cook bridge portals "tacked on", forcing buses to merge and change lanes in heavy traffic. Absence of bus lane
Bottlenecks at Cultural Centre and Melbourne St portal very apparent with unexpected demand
Non-toilet trains sent north of Caboolture
Lack of quadruplication on the Beenleigh line, despite upgrades
Building Greenslopes Busway station in the middle of grassland (raised by a colleague)
Building bridges incapable of supporting future light rail (Victoria bridge and Go between)
Transit officers not visible enough, especially away from rail.

[#Metro]

Building bridges incapable of supporting future light rail (Victoria bridge and Go between)

What!   Is Go-Between an anti-light rail construction!  

Clem7 tunnel

This one really should go under "Brisbane City Council transport related blunders/Successes"...
$770 million of public money went into The Hole. Imagine what you could get for $770 million?
25 km of dual track brand new light rail complete with stations and overhead wiring?
It would carry more than the Clem 7 does!

- massive road building in airport area instead of airtrain/public transport upgrades

Oh dear, maybe Airtrain will go bankrupt.  

[Golliwog]

The whole cul-de-sac thing isn't a state issue. The state however has come along and re done whatever guidelines for building new estates to say something to the effect of cul-de-sacs are horrible things and should be avoided as much as humanly possible.

[colinw]

- Bus to rail interchanges that aren't (e.g. on my line: Kuraby, Altandi, Fruitgrove where the services cross without any attempt at co-ordination).
- Expensive rollingstock procurement & infrastructure projects but NO improvement in service standard.
- Doing less with more - worst service frequency in Australia on some of the best infrastructure.
- Building the Gold Coast line as single track beyond Ormeau.  Didn't that cost a fortune to rectify?
- Coomera to Helensvale single track - WHEN is that going to be fixed?
- Springfield line shortcomings.  No Ellen Grove & Springfield lakes stations, no electrification of the 4th line Darra to Corinda.
- Endlessly deferred & receding projects. Kippa-Ring.  Maroochdore by 2031, or is it now only going to Kawana.  Ripley as a spur from Ipswich with no plan to link Springfield to Ripley even by 2031.  Landsboroughh & Nambour duplications?
- Gold Coast light rail isolated from the heavy rail system.
- The design of the Salisbury to Kuraby upgrade - makes future quadruplication very difficult, and did not include road/rail grade separations at Coopers Plains & Runcorn (Warrigal Road).
- Ferny Grove duplication - why do it as a separate project to Keperra? Also, Ferny Grove design blocks future extension.
- Gold Plating of projects.  Airtrain cost $220 million, Rosewood to Ipswich electrification about $18 million.  What did Varsity Lakes to Robina cost?
- Services that cut out way too early. (e.g. route 152 in my area).  On rail: Doomben & Airport.
- Token services that manufacture a feel good press release but are of no use: route 299 servicing the tech park, I'm sure there are others.
- Go card readers that are impossible to read in the sun, and are already suffering from damage from the elements.
- Busway station information screens that just scroll through the timetable without providing real time information about what is actually running.  By the time you have sat through 15 minutes of phantom departures while no actual buses arrive, you are very cranky indeed!
- Cleveland & Shorncliffe lines orphaned and not getting any meaningful upgrades.

[#Metro]

- Bus to rail interchanges that aren't (e.g. on my line: Kuraby, Altandi, Fruitgrove where the services cross without any attempt at co-ordination).

How important is it to have interchanges to rail there, and why do you think its worth building them there?
(I'm wanting to get some feedback on attitudes to interchange).

[colinw]

- Bus to rail interchanges that aren't (e.g. on my line: Kuraby, Altandi, Fruitgrove where the services cross without any attempt at co-ordination).

How important is it to have interchanges to rail there, and why do you think its worth building them there?
(I'm wanting to get some feedback on attitudes to interchange).

By interchange I mean - a sensible amount of co-ordination so the system is usable.

I don't propose building anything other than a sane timetable. Concrete & fancy orange TransLink signs do not make an interchange, timetable co-ordination & guaranteed connection does.  If it takes off, then by all means upgrade the facilities, but it is the service that counts, not the image or the imposing architecture of the station.

At these locations the bus stops are right outside the station, but at all these places the services simply do not gel.  You rock up on a bus, and see the marker lights on the back of the train vanishing up the line.  Or the bus arrives and takes off one minute before the train arrives, only to be held at the level crossing to wait for it to pass.

At Altandi - if things co-ordinated properly you would get usable bus/rail co-ordination from the Beenleigh Line to Sunnybank Hills (shoppingtown), to Griffith Uni, to the Sunnybank shops at Mains & McCulloch, and to the the busway.

At Fruitgrove a high frequency BUZ route crosses the Beenleigh line.  If it co-ordinated you would get easy Beenleigh Line to Garden City & busway services connectivity, as well as give the people of Stretton, Calamvale, Browns Plains, etc. a decent way to get on rail.

At Kuraby you would get a connection from the rail across to Springwood, to RACQ headquarters, to Brisbane Tech Park, and to the Eight Mile Plains busway terminus and the beginning of a huge range of busway services.

In practice, the level of co-ordination is such that we may as well have two different systems.

For Altandi & Fruitgrove, it is rail frequency that is the problem.  The buses run frequently enough, particularly at Fruitgrove.

For Kuraby, with a less frequent bus service, it is guaranteed connection that is the problem.  The buses & train make an almost-but-not-quite connection, which works if both are on time, but usually doesn't.  Very often it fails because the bus is on the other side of the level crossing.  Kuraby irritates the heck out of me because the bus needlessly crosses the railway on Beenleigh Road, and dues a pointless loop via Strathmore St, and yet a perfectly usable actual bus turnaround & shelter exists in the station carpark on the other side of the line, so the bus wouldn't get held by the level crossing.

End of rant.

[somebody]

- Airtrain as a private project rather than a state funded project.
- Still no upgrade to train frequency
- Lack of coordination between bus and rail
- Still an attitude that we can't have too many passenger trains as they may interfere with freight trains
- The whole notion that one or two additional trains per day receives a ministerial announcement is a complete embarrassment!

- Cleveland & Shorncliffe lines orphaned and not getting any meaningful upgrades.

Not sure what you mean here.  The priority is getting a 15 minute service to both Manly and Shorncliffe.  Not any infrastructure upgrades.

[Golliwog]

- Still an attitude that we can't have too many passenger trains as they may interfere with freight trains

But by the same token we are trying to increase rail freight. If we say rail freight be damned then all the trucks that are being removed from the roads by these trains will return. I'm certainly not saying passenger trains are unimportant, just that we need to be reasonable.

[colinw]

Perth once more points the way here.  Near complete segregation of freight & passenger services.

In many cases what we need is not passenger infrastructure projects, but freight infrastructure projects to get the freight off the passenger lines and guarantee freight paths.

[somebody]

Perth once more points the way here.  Near complete segregation of freight & passenger services.

In many cases what we need is not passenger infrastructure projects, but freight infrastructure projects to get the freight off the passenger lines and guarantee freight paths.

This is the strength of the via Kagaru suggestion.  Although it doesn't help for Acacia Ridge/Moolabin connecting to the north.

But by the same token we are trying to increase rail freight. If we say rail freight be damned then all the trucks that are being removed from the roads by these trains will return. I'm certainly not saying passenger trains are unimportant, just that we need to be reasonable.

No argument there, and I don't think I said freight be damned.  But if freight can get from Ipswich to Darra at a 40km/h average with a 15 minute Ipswich pax service or it may have a 50km/h average speed with a 30 minute pax service, which would be preferred?  Even a coal train isn't really slower than a pax train serving all stations unless there is a steep hill involved AIUI.

[ozbob]

On the Ippy Corinda to Rosewood, freight trains are quicker than the all stations sparks, and match the limited expresses it seems.  It is not unusual for freight trains to be mixed into the peaks on the Ipswich line.  Regularly there are 3 freight trains sometimes more in the 30 minute gap.

[somebody]

On the Ippy Corinda to Rosewood, freight trains are quicker than the all stations sparks, and match the limited expresses it seems.  It is not unusual for freight trains to be mixed into the peaks on the Ipswich line.  Regularly there are 3 freight trains sometimes more in the 30 minute gap.

I assume you are referring to a 30 minute counter peak gap there.

[ozbob]

Also off peak.  Coal trains UP and DOWN do run with the peaks at times as well.  There seems to be a regular UP one around 5pm ex Corinda.  Being empty able to accelerate reasonably quickly and roll along fine in the slot.

[somebody]

I can't believe anyone has mentioned this before:
Downgrading then removing the bus lanes from Coronation Drive (this has been called a disgrace in the ATDB NSW forum)

Also, the lack of a Transit/Bus lane outbound on Mains Rd
The shortness of the Transit Lane on Kelvin Grove Rd
Lack of an outbound Transit Lane on Lutwyche Rd/Gympie Rd
Shortness of inbound Transit Lane on Lutwyche Rd/Gympie Rd

[colinw]

Also, the lack of a Transit/Bus lane outbound on Mains Rd

I'll second that one.  I caught the 139 outbound from P.A. Hospital a few days ago.  It took longer to get from the busway to Kessels Road than the hospital to the exit off the busway.  Ended up about 10 minutes late at Altandi, and missed my connecting train.

[somebody]

Also, the lack of a Transit/Bus lane outbound on Mains Rd

I'll second that one.  I caught the 139 outbound from P.A. Hospital a few days ago.  It took longer to get from the busway to Kessels Road than the hospital to the exit off the busway.  Ended up about 10 minutes late at Altandi, and missed my connecting train.

I'd expect a trip like that would be noticeably faster via Park Rd station.

[colinw]

By the timetable it works out much the same.  I was just playing - thought I'd take the 139 just for the heck of it.

[ozbob]

Any more blunders?  It is cathartic to get it out .. 

[Mozz]

Potentially to spend $2.3M on Oxley station upgrade of which I suspect the majority of money will be spent on the Bus interchange and not swap the in route and out route for buses so that they actually exit the existing roundabout which would significantly enhance the functionality of the bus interchange.

[somebody]

The stabling at Redbank is to support the high frequency timetable planned.  I too think that would be better at Wulkaraka as with the planned population increases the trains will need to be running in from Ipswich rather than Redbank ...

Even the current timetable requires more Ipswich or beyond stabling than is presently provided.  As close to Rosewood as possible is really the best IMO.  4 trains start from Rosewood in the AM before the first train arrives there.  These all need to be empty moves at present.

What I am trying to say, even if Redbank stabling is implemented, we still need increased stabling further west.

Potentially to spend $2.3M on Oxley station upgrade of which I suspect the majority of money will be spent on the Bus interchange and not swap the in route and out route for buses so that they actually exit the existing roundabout which would significantly enhance the functionality of the bus interchange.

Just had a look at the bus interchange at Oxley, and it actually looks pretty good.  If the 101 & 102 truncate at Oxley (which seems sensible to me), I don't see a reason to do as you suggest.  Are you thinking of some difficulty in crossing Cook St?

[ozbob]

Buses are stuck at the moment due to the very heavy traffic.  Reversal, removal of the roundabout with bus priority at traffic lights instead of the roundabout would improve things dramatically.  The chances of it happening though are remote as  the suggestion has been dismissed before by the experts.  The same experts that said the safe-T mirror on the 17 Mile Rocks Road bridge wouldn't be suitable ( http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=897.msg12604#msg12604 ), the same experts that want to turn Scotts Road Darra into a truck thoroughfare.

Also you need to be aware that a two story Woolworths supermarket complex is about to built at Oxley as well. This will compound the difficulty for buses as well.

And there is the pedestrian crossing. Unsafe for all and a major traffic stopper as well.  A traffic light controlled intersection with a safer crossing would be an extra benefit of doing what Mozz has detailed.

[somebody]

It would also require a pedestrian subway extension, I would imagine, as the buses are now dropping off on the side of the road further away from the station.

[ozbob]

The buses would be in the same space as they are now, the flow of traffic through bus A is just reversed.  If I get time will do a quick mud map later to explain the concept.