Queensland fares

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

50 Cent Fares  - Getting Buses and Trains Ready

28th May 2024

The roll-out of the 50 Cent Fares from 5th August will certainly lead to significant increases in public transport patronage.

During the recent Council election, Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner said a network of bus rapid transitways (BRT) is the key to Brisbane's public transport future incorporating transitways along existing road corridors ( https://www.adrianschrinner.com.au/featured/brisbanes-rapid-transit-future-is-metro/ ). Transitways ensure that our bus network is working as fast, efficient and reliably as possible. Most importantly the buses will not be stuck in the same traffic that the State Government and Lord Mayor so desperately want to fix. Whilst it can take time to develop bus rapid transitways implementing bus lanes where the transitways will run is a simple and cost-effective start towards the Lord mayor's BRT network across Brisbane.

In commenting on the State Government's 50 Cent Fare announcement the Lord Mayor also warned that without bus and train reliability in the outer suburbs peak hour congestion will stay at a standstill, and there must be more public transport to stations
(

Code Select Expand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht0rIGh3CJw ).

These are very valid observations from the Lord Mayor.  Park 'n' ride is a limited resource and is generally at capacity.  How will more passengers access stations?

Clearly there needs to be better feeder bus networks to rail stations.  Trains have more capacity than buses and more passengers will need to be redirected to rail. With 50 Cent Fares there is no transfer cost penalty to transfer from a feeder bus to rail and vice versa.

We note Minister Mellish's comments that the transport agencies are looking at possible service increases on Citytrain to match an increased demand
(

Code Select Expand

https://x.com/9newsqueensland/status/1795005665708069263 ).  It is generally accepted that the main factors for improving public transport patronage are good frequency, reliability and accessibility.  The public transport has to be there to use.

Here are a series of interviews on ABC Radio Melbourne Drive 27th May 2024.  Host Ali Moore with Robert Dow RAIL Back On Track and then Daniel Bowen Public Transport Users Association Victoria. Discussion on the Fifty Cent Fares for Queensland from August 5th.

Interview > https://backontrack.org/docs/abcmelb/abcmelb_am_rd_db_27may24.mp3  MP3 14.7MB

There is nation wide interest in the 50 Cent Fares for Queensland.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

https://x.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1795007701237534752



^ Thanks FF!

[ozbob]

Been booked for an interview on ABC Radio Melbourne around 3:30pm today (27th May 2024).

Melbourne Drive with Ali Moore
https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/melbourne-drive

Interview 27th May 2024 ABC Radio Melbourne Host Ali Moore with Robert Dow RBoT and then Daniel Bowen PTUA

Discussion on the Fifty Cent Fares for Queensland from August 5th.

Here > https://backontrack.org/docs/abcmelb/abcmelb_am_rd_db_27may24.mp3  MP3 14.7MB

A few minutes of introduction but I wanted to capture the Premier's comments.

https://x.com/railbotforum/status/1795209466981282009

[ozbob]

Facebook ...

50 Cent Fares - Getting Buses and Trains Ready 28th May 2024 The roll-out of the 50 Cent Fares from 5th August will...

Posted by RAIL - Back On Track on Monday 27 May 2024

[ozbob]

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1795183247493611650

[#Metro]

I don't believe Premier Steven Miles can put new services on if there is overcrowding from this like he claims.

For example, let's say Gold Coast line experiences mass overcrowding, requiring three new trains to be added in peak.

Where are the trains going to come from? It's peak so virtually all trains are in use? And I would imagine train rostering is a slow moving ship as well, given that drivers cannot exceed certain hours and scheduling is done well in advance.

Similar story with peak buses. Virtually all of the fleet is utilised.

They would have to cancel some peak bus routes, and possibly cut the Doomben line trains etc if they want to free up vehicles to rebalance the expected loads?

[Jonno]

Buses we know are duplicative, not running in bus lanes, etc. Lots can be done. Rail replacement buses put into service.

Trains are harder but I am sure there are ideas out there.

[ozbob]

Buses we know are duplicative, not running in bus lanes, etc. Lots can be done. Rail replacement buses put into service.

Trains are harder but I am sure there are ideas out there.

+1

Thinking caps on! 

[HappyTrainGuy]

Trains aren't yet at true full utilisation in peak hour. There are lots and lots of dead running movements. The northern yard is half full at 8am. And plenty of adjustments can be made in peak. As I've mentioned the slots in the city play a crucial part in maintaining crossovers across the network. Most of these crosses are for dead runners to return to Mayne eg park road terminators via Sherwood/Corinda-Redbank (movements we see in both peaks such as ex Northgate-Roma Street services looping around via Tennyson to form Caboolture/Redcliffe services). There are no longer any more P7-Mayne movements in peak so everything gets extended to Park Road and makes the long trip back or to a depot via Tennyson. It's also not uncommon to have empty out of service trains running on the subs to Mayne via Central P3/4 in morning peak. Driver tutor trains and rostering also take advantage of this.

Cutting Doomben services doesn't actually add anything capacity, fleet or crew wise. You only gain 2 drivers and 2 guards. Reworking dead running crews by far outweighs this. Even reworking crews taking trains into Mayne can free up more additional crew numbers.

Rostering isn't an issue timewise. Crews still clock on and off at home base at their rostered hours. They can drive a train there or they can be a passenger there. Depends how the roster works out. Most problems can be sorted out within a week. Take the timetable review a decade ago. QR identified and had rostering done and was able to implement in 2 days. 30 something days later translink honchos approved the swap because people didn't want to adapt, media were kicking up a stink and they had to reprint and distribute a shed load of new timetables.

So a handful of extra peak services shouldn't be much of an issue.

[ozbob]

https://x.com/railbotforum/status/1795208733355642981

[ozbob]

Trains aren't yet at true full utilisation in peak hour. There are lots and lots of dead running movements. The northern yard is half full at 8am. And plenty of adjustments can be made in peak. As I've mentioned the slots in the city play a crucial part in maintaining crossovers across the network. Most of these crosses are for dead runners to return to Mayne eg park road terminators via Sherwood/Corinda-Redbank (movements we see in both peaks such as ex Northgate-Roma Street services looping around via Tennyson to form Caboolture/Redcliffe services). There are no longer any more P7-Mayne movements in peak so everything gets extended to Park Road and makes the long trip back or to a depot via Tennyson. It's also not uncommon to have empty out of service trains running on the subs to Mayne via Central P3/4 in morning peak. Driver tutor trains and rostering also take advantage of this.

Cutting Doomben services doesn't actually add anything capacity, fleet or crew wise. You only gain 2 drivers and 2 guards. Reworking dead running crews by far outweighs this. Even reworking crews taking trains into Mayne can free up more additional crew numbers.

Rostering isn't an issue timewise. Crews still clock on and off at home base at their rostered hours. They can drive a train there or they can be a passenger there. Depends how the roster works out. Most problems can be sorted out within a week. Take the timetable review a decade ago. QR identified and had rostering done and was able to implement in 2 days. 30 something days later translink honchos approved the swap because people didn't want to adapt, media were kicking up a stink and they had to reprint and distribute a shed load of new timetables.

So a handful of extra peak services shouldn't be much of an issue.

[#Metro]

So just confirming HTG, adding additional am peak trains ex Varsity lakes is possible?

GC line is the one expected to have the most impact IMO.

[timh]

Using the Rail replacement bus fleet is an excellent idea. Additional buses can also be chartered from the non-BCC operators ie Brisbane Bus Lines etc who I believe do have some spare fleet capacity.

HTG historically seems to know a lot about internal workings at QR regarding the fleet so I'm happy to take his word about spare train capacity in peak.

At this stage Metro it looks as though you are trying to be as absolutely negative as possible about this. Very much just naysaying everything. Time to embrace it buddy, this 50c thing is happening. Let's make the most of it.

WE know that service increases are a super obvious need, but you must the general populace is super ignorant to most of this stuff. You gotta remember how little everyone actually knows about public transport. Some examples Ive seen recently:
- Facebook comments on politicians posts about the 50c fares from regional Queenslanders complaining how it's only for SEQ, despite it being clearly rolled out statewide
- One comment from a user saying "I live on the Gold Coast and we don't have Translink we have GLink, why is the gold coast left out?"
- A 7 News reporter talking about the Adelaide Street Brisbane Metro tunnel stating they're building an underground station at Adelaide Street
- Several people Ive met thinking the Veloway bridge being built at O'Keefe street is a part of Brisbane Metro, therefore leading them to believe Brisbane Metro is a monorail or something

Anyway point is people are pretty ignorant to this stuff unless they're a big nerd.

So when suddenly huge amounts of people who have no idea about this stuff start using the public transport network and going "why are these trains/buses so full? Can't we just add more to spread the load?", the sheer critical mass of all the whinging (which will seep into the media quickly) will force the government's hand to make some very quick changes.

Put yourself in the shoes of one of these people.
-You live at Mango Hill and normally drive to work in Brisbane.
-You instead now catch a VERY full train and see all these trains saying "SPECIAL" going past empty (foamers pls correct me about dead running movements I'm sure that this probably doesn't happen that often at Mango Hill but you get the point I'm making I am not as big of a nerd lol)
-You as a non-PT user have no idea why the train is empty and not letting people on, complain loudly and the obvious answer is 'just let people on???'

If this carried on for weeks of crowding with dead running services (buses or trains) being seen around the network it would be absolute political suicide for the State government to not act, with that many people whinging about it. Remember this whole thing is ultimately a political stunt for Labor to win back votes. If they saw this level of overcrowding and did nothing, they may as well start getting the shovels out themselves!

Of course I'm making assumptions about crowding levels here but I really think this could be an excellent catalyst for service improvmenets. So pls chill out dude and be positive

[ozbob]

^^ #Metro, there are other strategies than just peak trains.  Additional shoulder and off peak services can encourage different travel times.  It is not all or none.  This is a great opportunity.

All the NGRs are through the DDA upgrades now, or very soon. Some reconditioned EMUs will be back.

I know there will be contingency plans developed to implement if there are problems with the network.

[ozbob]

...  but I really think this could be an excellent catalyst for service improvmenets. So pls chill out dude and be positive

Right on Tim!   

[HappyTrainGuy]

Yes adding extra Gold Coast services shouldn't be an issue fleet wise. Timetabling wise I don't know but that can be worked out rather easily. Just send a couple extra early services rather than using Robina stabling and the in service stock. Dead running will be the big issue but you could do a few things to compensate such as sending more from Beenleigh and then dead running more stock to Beenleigh to cover inbound services. You then end up with more night time dead running (Gold Coast-Beenleigh and Beenleigh-Mayne) but you can resolve some of that by having a crew take back to Mayne a 12 car set post peak from the Beenleigh yards to free up space for the Gold Coast dead runners that would arrive later in the night (which is what was previously done on the Caboolture and Ipswich lines after evening peak prior to the Redbank and Redcliffe yards/depots).

Rather than sending to Beenleigh you could also send more to Kuraby.

[#Metro]

At this stage Metro it looks as though you are trying to be as absolutely negative as possible about  this. Very much just naysaying everything. Time to embrace it buddy, this 50c thing is happening. Let's make the most of it.

Well, I just can't be bought off timh.   

Thanks HTG for outlining how extra capacity could potentially be added to the GC line during this trial, it will be important.

[HappyTrainGuy]

It should be noted that this would only be possible prior to CRR coming online with sectorisation. Post CRR you won't have any 12 car running due to the NGR coupler covers. You can reduce some costs only having to potentially run as far as Clapham yard but 2 crews are still required (not the end of the world as rostering can work in its favour ie Clapham crews then signing off). Post CRR rollingstock and crews will also be freed up due to a lack of dead running.

[ozbob]

ABC News --> Queensland is slashing public transport fares but Australia has 'a long way to go' in getting cars off the road, expert says

[ozbob]

https://x.com/StevenJMiles/status/1795244975355302362

[ozbob]

In Queensland --> Fare enough: Playing Santa to commuters is a sure sign Miles' ship has sailed

Anyone in business knows one fatal truth about discounts – once given they are almost impossible to reverse.

And that will be the case with Stephen Miles' election year clearout of public transport tickets. Success or not, it will be very difficult to take fares back to anywhere near their current level in 2025. ...

[JimmyP]

At this stage Metro it looks as though you are trying to be as absolutely negative as possible about  this. Very much just naysaying everything. Time to embrace it buddy, this 50c thing is happening. Let's make the most of it.

Well, I just can't be bought off timh.   

Thanks HTG for outlining how extra capacity could potentially be added to the GC line during this trial, it will be important.

It's not about being paid off, it's about making the most out of a situation that is happening, whether you like it or not.

Plenty of positives out of this:
 - Good data to show how well (or not, as the case may be) fare policy works, and able to adjust levers depending on time of day etc (ie: peak is normal pricing, off-peak cheap as chips to get people using it etc)
 - Good data to show that even if it is cheap, people won't use inconvenient services (able to push for proper reform, higher frequency, span of hours etc)
 - Good data to push for better frequencies if ridership increases well enough outside peak particularly
 - Gets people talking about PT and makes it more of an issue in the general public's mind, which can sway political thoughts regarding PT.

Is it the best thing to happen? No, but it certainly isn't the worst and there will be positives.

[ozbob]

https://x.com/Jeffrey_Addison/status/1795411179743154193

[ozbob]

The Conversation --> Catching public transport in Queensland will soon cost just 50 cents. Are cheap fares good policy?

As part of a six-month trial, public transport fares in Queensland will soon be slashed to just 50 cents per trip for everyone.

The cheap fares will apply to all trips on buses, light rail, trains, and ferries, over any distance, in cities and towns that are part of the Translink network.

Very-low flat fares have become fashionable policy as governments respond to cost of living pressures around the world. ...

[HappyTrainGuy]

With the 50 cent fares it would be interesting to see if Airtrain will be forced to somewhat discount their own fares as not to lose out to other markets such as Ubers eagle junction-Airport.

If some sort of discount fare comes into effect post trial it could force Airtrain's hand to drop its pricing a little. They still have the monopoly on the airport contract but it also shows how quickly the state can make them look bad. On the other hand airtrain can still make life bad for the state during the olympics due to the exclusive rights clause in the contract. It can make them even more profitable if the state agrees to pay the difference. Cheaper fares for the passenger means more people using it but a bigger hit to the wallet of the state.

Which raises another question can the state afford to maintain some type of fare discount state wide long term with the major flaws in the network (especially in the Brisbane area where it's bleeding money with mass duplication and under services areas). The trial would expose the areas but they would have to move very swiftly and not be afraid to put people such as the BCC who historically look after their own interests politically in their place. None of this backing down as they have done over the years.

A great game of poker being played.

[ozbob]

^

In Queensland ---> Why can 50 cents take you anywhere on a bus or train, but airport train costs $41.80

The cost of travelling to Brisbane's domestic and international airport terminals on the privately-operated train service could be subsidised by the Queensland government.

... Transport Minister Bart Mellish says the government has submitted an offer to AirTrain operators to lower fares during the trial.

A return paper ticket from Brisbane's Central Station to the airport costs $41.80 on the private service. ...

 

[Jonno]

The irony is lost in many that the mode of transport that Government are desperate to "reduce/fix" is rarely charged for. Rego costs and tolls cover very little of the cost of the infrastructure (service) yet that is completely acceptable

[OzGamer]

And even mention congestion pricing and everybody loses their minds...

[ozbob]

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-news-live-brisbane-households-warned-of-rate-rises-payne-haas-breaks-silence-20240528-p5jhbd.html?post=p571qb#p571qb

Schrinner wants Metro fares to be 50 cents too

By Tony Moore

Brisbane City Council is now negotiating with the current state government for its Metro services – to begin in December – to be included in the six-month trial of 50 cent fares.

It is hoped the Brisbane Metro will ease congestion and improve links between the CBD and suburbs.

"If we can get a new contract signed and agreed to between council and the state government, we can have the very first Brisbane Metro services being used by people for just 50 cents a trip," Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner said yesterday. ...

[RowBro]

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-news-live-brisbane-households-warned-of-rate-rises-payne-haas-breaks-silence-20240528-p5jhbd.html?post=p571qb#p571qb

Schrinner wants Metro fares to be 50 cents too

By Tony Moore

Brisbane City Council is now negotiating with the current state government for its Metro services – to begin in December – to be included in the six-month trial of 50 cent fares.

It is hoped the Brisbane Metro will ease congestion and improve links between the CBD and suburbs.

"If we can get a new contract signed and agreed to between council and the state government, we can have the very first Brisbane Metro services being used by people for just 50 cents a trip," Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner said yesterday. ...

What is Schrinner talking about?? It's a Translink service so it'll be 50c during the trial, right?

[ozbob]

^ Yes, it is part of the Translink network so I would have thought FCF was a given (while they are in place).

I hope I am OK come August, going to be a busy month getting out and about 

I won't have to worry about doing the one, two, and free caper on the Seniors go card.

[timh]

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-news-live-brisbane-households-warned-of-rate-rises-payne-haas-breaks-silence-20240528-p5jhbd.html?post=p571qb#p571qb

Schrinner wants Metro fares to be 50 cents too

By Tony Moore

Brisbane City Council is now negotiating with the current state government for its Metro services – to begin in December – to be included in the six-month trial of 50 cent fares.

It is hoped the Brisbane Metro will ease congestion and improve links between the CBD and suburbs.

"If we can get a new contract signed and agreed to between council and the state government, we can have the very first Brisbane Metro services being used by people for just 50 cents a trip," Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner said yesterday. ...

What is Schrinner talking about?? It's a Translink service so it'll be 50c during the trial, right?

Yeah this is weird. Why would they not be included? I'm guessssssing it's either a) just a political thing for BCC to just try and "remind" the public that Metro is happening and that it will be included or b) there's some kind of legal red tape involved as it's a new service that comes into effect after the 6 month trial has begun, so they have to ensure there's something formally written down about it.

For me I think it's a bit of a combination of both. I think it's a given the bendy bois will be 50c too

[STB]

Trains aren't yet at true full utilisation in peak hour. There are lots and lots of dead running movements. The northern yard is half full at 8am.

Just as a side note that 'Dead Running' in the railway industry (and at Qld Rail), refers to a train that has broken down.  The correct term is 'Empty Running' - I made the same mistake in 2009 on my first day in the Daily Train Planning department at Qld Rail, my co-workers really quickly corrected me, pointing out that 'Dead running' refers to buses NOT trains!

Also to point out that you can't always turn an empty runner into a revenue service for various reasons, from reduction in turnback times at the terminus (correct terminology is 'turnback' NOT 'turnaround'!), and train crews have a legal agreement via their union and QR on what those minimum times are, if the turnback is less than the minimum time, you have to have a spare crew on board to turnback that train quickly (from memory, the minimum turnback time is 7mins), it can also be related to where crews can have their meal breaks (they can only have their meals at certain locations (eg: Roma Street)), it can also be related to a concept known as 'unit balancing' ie: if a depot has 8x 6 car units at the beginning of the day, it must have 8x 6 car units at the end of the day.

Train timetable scheduling is essentially dealing with a complex moving jigsaw puzzle, with limitations and rules attached!

[#Metro]

There are some services which are 100% BCC funded IIRC, these being the CityGliders.

[nathandavid88]

If some sort of discount fare comes into effect post trial it could force Airtrain's hand to drop its pricing a little. They still have the monopoly on the airport contract but it also shows how quickly the state can make them look bad. On the other hand airtrain can still make life bad for the state during the olympics due to the exclusive rights clause in the contract. It can make them even more profitable if the state agrees to pay the difference. Cheaper fares for the passenger means more people using it but a bigger hit to the wallet of the state.

I know that the Airtrain contract runs until 2036, but do we know exactly when in 2036 it expires? Is it the end of the year, or does it have an expiry earlier in the year?

I thought I read somewhere that the expiry took place just before the Olympics, but I may be mistaken.

[achiruel]

I know that the Airtrain contract runs until 2036, but do we know exactly when in 2036 it expires? Is it the end of the year, or does it have an expiry earlier in the year?

I thought I read somewhere that the expiry took place just before the Olympics, but I may be mistaken.

Considering the Olympics are in 2032, exactly when in 2036 the Airtrain contract expires isn't very important.

[Jonno]

https://www.facebook.com/share/CMyLcdHuaTtYhDB8/?mibextid=WC7FNe

Bicycle Queensland welcomes the announcement that Queenslanders will pay just 50c for each trip on a train, bus, ferry or light rail from August 5. This is a great incentive to get more people to adopt public transport for more of their travel.

With more people than ever before using the public transport network, the need for better bike parking at stations and better accessibility at stations becomes even more important. We also want to see bike riders continuing to be able to bring their bikes on the train.

This initiative has the potential for many of us to rethink our modes of transport – what changes will you be making?

https://bq.org.au/news/bicycle-queensland-welcomes-reduced-public-transport-costs/

Not mention of safe access to the station!!

[HappyTrainGuy]

Trains aren't yet at true full utilisation in peak hour. There are lots and lots of dead running movements. The northern yard is half full at 8am.

Just as a side note that 'Dead Running' in the railway industry (and at Qld Rail), refers to a train that has broken down.  The correct term is 'Empty Running' - I made the same mistake in 2009 on my first day in the Daily Train Planning department at Qld Rail, my co-workers really quickly corrected me, pointing out that 'Dead running' refers to buses NOT trains!

Also to point out that you can't always turn an empty runner into a revenue service for various reasons, from reduction in turnback times at the terminus (correct terminology is 'turnback' NOT 'turnaround'!), and train crews have a legal agreement via their union and QR on what those minimum times are, if the turnback is less than the minimum time, you have to have a spare crew on board to turnback that train quickly (from memory, the minimum turnback time is 7mins), it can also be related to where crews can have their meal breaks (they can only have their meals at certain locations (eg: Roma Street)), it can also be related to a concept known as 'unit balancing' ie: if a depot has 8x 6 car units at the beginning of the day, it must have 8x 6 car units at the end of the day.

Train timetable scheduling is essentially dealing with a complex moving jigsaw puzzle, with limitations and rules attached!

You don't have to be exact on forums. God forbid should I start talking about the different acronyms such as OTV's, RRV's, RIMs or start talking about all the different switches in turnouts. Then you have your obvious AWS ATP RCS UTC LRW SWR etc etc etc but if you jump into your train mtce you get even more and then your short hands. The lawn still gets a laugh as does the useless road because it's now actually useless.

As I mentioned there are workarounds for pretty much everything. For instance the minimum time is 8 minutes for a six car 1x 2 man crew but a second crew and that becomes 3 minutes IIRC. And the same with crews. Eagle Junction, Mayne, Bowen Hills, Roma Street, Park Road, Darra, terminus, yards etc etc. Lots of flexibility for signing on/off, meal breaks etc. You don't need to shift a large amount of rollingstock. It's just a couple trains. With the most recent rescheduling of trains a lot of flat junction movements were removed or moved so the trains would do their little flat junction dances without impacting the other service. And it's not an uncommon problem sending trains on a v movement from yards. There are plenty of Springfield-Redbank movements. Your city slots is going to be the biggest problem but can also be managed.

[ozbob]

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1795847481592574170

[ozbob]

50 cent fares are coming

More information has been added at

https://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/50-cent-fares