Should the proposed 15% fare increases for 2013 and 2014 be capped at CPI only?

[HappyTrainGuy]

TT, the Government might not give you a dishwasher but they will give you some insulation and solar panels

[#Metro]

TT, the Government might not give you a dishwasher but they will give you some insulation and solar panels Tongue

Heaven help us all.

I think in time the issue of car subsidies will pop up. This is the funding crunch that's needed to make hard choices.
As for tollways - what a waste of time - they only carry a tiny fraction of the total city traffic and no major city (OK, apart from LA perhaps) tries to get millions and millions around in cars... pointless... privately funded or not privately funded, the benefits are just too small.

[plugmeister]

I'd be happy to pay the extra fares if I was guarenteed a decent/reliable service. 

It should *not* take 55 minutes by train from Sandgate to Milton, I can do it on my bike in an hour!

[SurfRail]

I'd be happy to pay the extra fares if I was guarenteed a decent/reliable service. 

It should *not* take 55 minutes by train from Sandgate to Milton, I can do it on my bike in an hour!

Let's be fair though - your bike is not stopping to pick up people every 700 metres and competing with other bikes for limited road and footpath space.

There are definitely time savings to be had though - too much fat in the timetable generally, useless stations like Bindha are still open, too much recovery time at Central etc.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Bindha is starting to be used again during the day interesting enough. Night time not so much though.

[somebody]

I'd be happy to pay the extra fares if I was guarenteed a decent/reliable service. 

It should *not* take 55 minutes by train from Sandgate to Milton, I can do it on my bike in an hour!

The problem here is that the Shorncliffe line trains don't go to Milton after Roma St any more.  And the times line up effectively meaning 15 minutes must be allowed for in the interchange.

I fully agree that this is a poor offering.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Remember its only a interm problem though as when Cleveland gets its new timetable theres a very high chance that it will be paired up with Shorncliffe services, Bowen Hills-Richlands would also be extended to Springfield/Kippa Ring in due time with the Doomben line getting its own dedicated Doomben-Roma Street shuttle (only one 3/6 car unit needs to operate RS-DBN-RS etc including turn around times at each terminus as an hourly service vs Shorncliffe trains occupying a platform at RS for 25-35 minutes waiting to form the next Shorncliffe service - Usually P3 and P6) which maximises rollingstock utilisation and inturn reduces congestion on the innercity subs through to Roma Street.

[somebody]

Rephrasing: "A very high chance it is only an interim problem."

Well, so long as the Shorncliffe trains retime so that they aren't coming at exactly the same times as the Milton ones.  It also means that people who used to have a through service now need to transfer, although I guess giving them a through service to the south side is reasonable, and it will be consistent then between weekdays and weekends.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I'd say they would keep the Shorncliffe timetable to keep connections with the Caboolture line (Northgate-Virginia is about 2-3 minutes wait for both directions) and when Kippa Ring goes up they would most likely add some margin or eat a little into the Shorncliffe turn around so it would also be a 2 minute interchange to the inbound Kippa Ring-Springfield service with Cleveland times just following that as they are already pretty similar in times.

[mufreight]

Remove this ever growing financial black hole that is Translink and there is a considerable saving.
At the present time this top heavy organisation does little that could not be done by an already existing office of the Department of Transport and Main Roads.
It has served its political purpose and there is no further justification for the continued replicating work already done in other departments or organisations not only twice but in many cases three or four times.
Fare collection could be handled by an office of treasury, co-ordination and transport planning by TMR which it is understood already reviews what Translink, QR Passenger, Brisbane Transport and private operators propose anyway, so what justification is there for the continued operation of Translink.

[#Metro]

Remove this ever growing financial black hole that is Translink and there is a considerable saving.
At the present time this top heavy organisation does little that could not be done by an already existing office of the Department of Transport and Main Roads.
It has served its political purpose and there is no further justification for the continued replicating work already done in other departments or organisations not only twice but in many cases three or four times.
Fare collection could be handled by an office of treasury, co-ordination and transport planning by TMR which it is understood already reviews what Translink, QR Passenger, Brisbane Transport and private operators propose anyway, so what justification is there for the continued operation of Translink.

Have to disagree with this, totally. TL has one focus, and that is organising PT. The lines of accountability are clear and direct, unlike in Melbourne where you need a telephone book to figure out who is responsible for what. Having once central organisation also makes communication direct and simple rather than round-table negotiations of multiple organisations.

When was the last time bus routes were reviewed in Melbourne? When bus routes were reviewed in Sydney?
or the last time major new bus services got put on in either city? (bar Metrobus/Smartbus).

Keep TransLink, as an organisation it is discharging its duties quite well despite everyone wanting to blame it for everything.

What is the alternative? Outsource the entire organization remotely to a third-world country and take advantage of exchange rates to lower the cost of running it (not a serious solution, LOL).

[ozbob]

Media release 10 March 2012

Core Frequent Network



SEQ: 15% Fare rises can't go on forever - find efficiencies please!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers calls for a simplification and consolidation of the public transport network.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"There is an upper limit to what can be charged for on public transport, both in value for money terms and in terms of what people will put up with. 15% increases year on year is not a long term, financially or politically sustainable solution. SEQ residents pay some of the highest fares in the world (1). Comparisons against geographically similar cities in Canada for example, Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton shows that Brisbane has high fares, high taxpayer subsidy and generally poor service, especially on rail (2,3)."

"Fares can't continue to be increased ad infinitum. With fares going up 15% annually, passengers rightly expect efficiencies to be found in the network; that means reviewing legacy routes and more emphasis on connections, which reduces waiting time and overall journey times for all. Using connections rather than direct services gives high frequency to more people for the same fixed budget (4)."

"RAIL Back On Track urges TransLink to focus its efforts on completing the Core Frequent Network, which is the minimum basic network required to properly link the CBD with the suburbs and suburbs with each other using orbital bus routes. This creates a basic anywhere-to-anywhere-at-anytime network for Brisbane and sets the scene for high frequency feeder services which do not require large increases in funding to have high frequency."

"Plans for Maroon CityGliders which would do more to assist mayoral re-election campaigns rather than extend high frequency services to areas which currently do not have access to decent, frequent transport should also be cancelled outright, and the funds used to fund the Core Frequent Network."

Suggested Core Frequent rail and bus services can be found here (http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5173.0) and we believe that these should be a priority before any other service improvements in the Brisbane region.

References:

1. Brizcommuter World Fare comparison  http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2011/12/2012-world-fare-comparison.html

2. TTC Farebox Ratio  http://stevemunro.ca/?p=4819

3. Canadian Cost Recoveries  http://stevemunro.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/CanadianCostRecoveries.pdf

4. Building a Core Frequent Network  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5173.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[HappyTrainGuy]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA, organising PT my butt. In my eyes the only successful and organised thing Translink has done in its whole 7-8 years is intergrated fares and ticketing... which to be honest still needs some work on. I'd include Buz services and busways but the BCC/Government beat Translink to that. Most services are the same old quality stuff prior to them forming. How about Eatons Hill/Brendale a bus that leaves Strathpine station/a shopping complex after 5.20pm on a weekday or a bus that continues a couple km down the road to feed into the local railway station/shopping complex prior/in peak hour instead of only shuffling people the other way through traffic towards the city. When was the last time Translink actually reviewed in detail bus services here besides adding an additional service here and there and claiming more seats, rivets and bolts for the public. If they did I'm sure they'd see the multiple 2 hour frequency routes running, lack of running hours, the dredful bus-train interchange options available for passengers and the handfull of feeder routes compared to the express to the city bus via your front door.

Might aswell outsource it since we outsourced the top position to the poms

[somebody]

When was the last time bus routes were reviewed in Melbourne? When bus routes were reviewed in Sydney?

It's actually done constantly in Sydney, mostly in the growth areas.

They also have the good quality of not starting stupid services like the 217 that are obviously stupid before they start.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA, organising PT my butt.

+1.  But the notion of an over arching authority is good, and I understand worked well pre-TTA and may well work well in the future.

[plugmeister]

I'd be happy to pay the extra fares if I was guarenteed a decent/reliable service. 

It should *not* take 55 minutes by train from Sandgate to Milton, I can do it on my bike in an hour!

Let's be fair though - your bike is not stopping to pick up people every 700 metres and competing with other bikes for limited road and footpath space.

There are definitely time savings to be had though - too much fat in the timetable generally, useless stations like Bindha are still open, too much recovery time at Central etc.

Nothing to do with too many stops at stations (and I doubt stations are 700m apart) - there are too many stops not at stations plus other "delays".  I only average 28kmh on my bike and stop at traffic lights and any other intersection where I need to give way, so even with stops, a train should be *much* faster.  The point of my comment was that a train travelling 25km should simply not take that long to get from A to B. There are too many bottlenecks getting from one side of the city to the other, plus an unacceptable transfer time at Roma St because the QR timetable is woeful for connecting Shornecliffe to the Ipswich/Richlands line - they seem to have misaligned the two timetables perfectly, either by design for some operational purpose or completely by accident......   

[plugmeister]

I'd be happy to pay the extra fares if I was guarenteed a decent/reliable service. 

It should *not* take 55 minutes by train from Sandgate to Milton, I can do it on my bike in an hour!

The problem here is that the Shorncliffe line trains don't go to Milton after Roma St any more.  And the times line up effectively meaning 15 minutes must be allowed for in the interchange.

I fully agree that this is a poor offering.

And to rub it in, sometimes while waiting at Milton a "Special" train comes through the station with "Shornecliffe" signs on the back 3 cars as it rolls towards Roma St to become the Shornecliffe train I am about to miss by 2 minutes.

Very frustating given that just over 6 months ago I used to catch a direct train to Sandgate.....

[SurfRail]

Nothing to do with too many stops at stations (and I doubt stations are 700m apart) - there are too many stops not at stations plus other "delays".  I only average 28kmh on my bike and stop at traffic lights and any other intersection where I need to give way, so even with stops, a train should be *much* faster.  The point of my comment was that a train travelling 25km should simply not take that long to get from A to B. There are too many bottlenecks getting from one side of the city to the other, plus an unacceptable transfer time at Roma St because the QR timetable is woeful for connecting Shornecliffe to the Ipswich/Richlands line - they seem to have misaligned the two timetables perfectly, either by design for some operational purpose or completely by accident...... 

The average station spacing in the section from Shorncliffe to Central (20.7km) is a station every 1.2km, however most of them are much closer (the stretch between Boondall and Nudgee throws it out a bit).  Then you add on the short 700 metre stretch to Roma Street and whatever the distance to Milton is.

You are never going to get the train to go much faster than it can now.  The line has operational constraints (trains can't go around a curve at 100kph), the stations are closely spaced so you never get to top speed, you have to dwell to pick up and set down passengers, and you have to observe the timetable which is designed for the entire network to operate properly.

Frequency is the only solution.  You can never run a 30 minute frequency network which will allow perfect connections at Central to all other lines unless every single different service arrives within 5 minutes of a given time (not possible).  With a basic 15 minute timetable, the average wait times would generally be much less than 15 minutes.

[SurfRail]

And to rub it in, sometimes while waiting at Milton a "Special" train comes through the station with "Shornecliffe" signs on the back 3 cars as it rolls towards Roma St to become the Shornecliffe train I am about to miss by 2 minutes.

Very frustating given that just over 6 months ago I used to catch a direct train to Sandgate.....

It happens.  Eventually I will no longer be able to catch a train directly from the Gold Coast to the airport...

[STB]

And to rub it in, sometimes while waiting at Milton a "Special" train comes through the station with "Shornecliffe" signs on the back 3 cars as it rolls towards Roma St to become the Shornecliffe train I am about to miss by 2 minutes.

Very frustating given that just over 6 months ago I used to catch a direct train to Sandgate.....

It happens.  Eventually I will no longer be able to catch a train directly from the Gold Coast to the airport...

They are planning on removing the GC/Airport corridor?  So, GC trains will terminate at Bowen Hills??

[#Metro]

Frequency is the only solution.  You can never run a 30 minute frequency network which will allow perfect connections at Central to all other lines unless every single different service arrives within 5 minutes of a given time (not possible).  With a basic 15 minute timetable, the average wait times would generally be much less than 15 minutes.

I've often thought whether it would be better to have the Shorncliffe line run as a busway. There would be a number of advantages including very high frequency, elimination of transfer and buses could go directly off to redcliffe as well.

The alternative is to operate high frequency feeder shuttles, although this comes with its own issues. As usual, there are too many legacy constraints which makes timetabling services (the whole purpose of having this infrastructure in the first place anyway) infuriatingly difficult.

What's the solution - probably best posted in a different thread than this one.

[Jonas Jade]

Frequency is the only solution.  You can never run a 30 minute frequency network which will allow perfect connections at Central to all other lines unless every single different service arrives within 5 minutes of a given time (not possible).  With a basic 15 minute timetable, the average wait times would generally be much less than 15 minutes.

I've often thought whether it would be better to have the Shorncliffe line run as a busway. There would be a number of advantages including very high frequency, elimination of transfer and buses could go directly off to redcliffe as well.

The alternative is to operate high frequency feeder shuttles, although this comes with its own issues. As usual, there are too many legacy constraints which makes timetabling services (the whole purpose of having this infrastructure in the first place anyway) infuriatingly difficult.

What's the solution - probably best posted in a different thread than this one.

What a busway to Northgate??  

That's an expensive solution to a non-existent problem.

Just run trains every 15 minutes. Redcliffe connections will have to sort themselves out when MBRL opens.

[SurfRail]

And to rub it in, sometimes while waiting at Milton a "Special" train comes through the station with "Shornecliffe" signs on the back 3 cars as it rolls towards Roma St to become the Shornecliffe train I am about to miss by 2 minutes.

Very frustating given that just over 6 months ago I used to catch a direct train to Sandgate.....

It happens.  Eventually I will no longer be able to catch a train directly from the Gold Coast to the airport...

They are planning on removing the GC/Airport corridor?  So, GC trains will terminate at Bowen Hills??

This is assuming CRR goes ahead.  Gold Coast trains would most likely be throughrouted to the north based on the reference design.  (Maybe not if there is still no CAMCOS or CAMCOS-derived line built.)

[somebody]

They are planning on removing the GC/Airport corridor?  So, GC trains will terminate at Bowen Hills??

CRR plans have it connecting to the mains on the north side.  So presumably CAB/NBR or Kippa-Ring.

[somebody]

In Adeliade they call it the O-bahn also known as white elephant.

O-bahn is a white elephant?  I have never heard that before.

Only an absolute moron would route the GC trains to anywhere else but the Airport

I don't know about that.  The Ipswich line is far busier and much more chance of through traffic with more competitive travel times.  From the Gold Coast it is much more direct to use the Gateway.

[SurfRail]

Only an absolute moron would route the GC trains to anywhere else but the Airport, if you ever wanted a perfect match for train service running through the city, thats it. Look at the users at the Airport, they are either in bsuiness style dress bound for city or beach style dressed tourists bound for GC with a few more headed to the Sunshine Coast and City.

Then of course the rolling stock used by GC line suits Airtrain as well with luggage racks and more comfy seating.

It would be also interesting to see what Airtrain have to say about re-routing as there is a damn good reason they got the GC feeders.

regards
Shane

I would like to see how you can sectorise the network properly without doing this.

The vast majority of Gold Coast passengers are not going to Brisbane's airport, and the interurban rollingstock belongs on interurban lines. 

Virtually every future plan I have seen includes this, and it makes perfect sense to me.

[Jonas Jade]

And the same argument could be rolled out to much of Brisbane's rail services. Run truck only Beenleigh to Cab, Darra to Mich and Manly to City, with bus feeders using a mix of road and dedicated busway. In Adeliade they call it the O-bahn also known as white elephant.

Nothing wrong with running shuttles on the lessor used branch lines to connect with main line services provided the connection can be done smoothly and quickly and where possible cross platform.

regards
Shane

Hmmm if a shuttle Shorncliffe was offered 15 minutely, I'd be all for it. Shuttles are fine, its ripping up a train line to install a busway that's only feeding into a train line at the end anyway that I think is silly.

It makes no sense to rip the line up to build a busway for a corridor that ends at Northgate and the feeder buses wouldn't really be coming from anywhere except Boondall, Deagon, Brighton etc, that might as well just feed into the train line without needing the capex that provides no real net benefit.

[Gazza]

In Adeliade they call it the O-bahn also known as white elephant.

How is the O-Bahn a white elephant?

[cartoonbirdhaus]

It makes no sense to rip the line up to build a busway for a corridor that ends at Northgate and the feeder buses wouldn't really be coming from anywhere except Boondall, Deagon, Brighton etc

They'd also be coming from Redcliffe; so a Northgate-Shorncliffe shuttle would require one more transfer than necessary, for the Redcliffians going to downtown Brisbane.

[SurfRail]

In Adeliade they call it the O-bahn also known as white elephant.

How is the O-Bahn a white elephant?

Its not a white elephant, however it is a good example of why people shouldn't be sold on proprietary or rare technologies.  They had immense trouble finding a viable replacement for the original Mercedes fleet it was designed for, and the current Scania fleet is a less than perfect resolution.

[ozbob]

The LNP have announced that they will implement 7.5% fare increases for 2013 and 2014, not the present projected 15%.

Report on ABC Sunshine Coast Radio.

Andrew Powell, the State Member for Glass House, interviewed on the Annie Gaffney Program about SCL rail issues today announced that Campbell Newman will be revealing an LNP plan to cut the proposed 15 per cent fares increases over the next two years to 7.5 per cent year on year.  The estimated cost of the initiative is $101 million in the LNP's first year of government.

[somebody]

The LNP have announced that they will implement 7.5% fare increases for 2013 and 2014, not the present projected 15%.

Report on ABC Sunshine Coast Radio.

Andrew Powell, the State Member for Glass House, interviewed on the Annie Gaffney Program about SCL rail issues today announced that Campbell Newman will be revealing an LNP plan to cut the proposed 15 per cent fares increases over the next two years to 7.5 per cent year on year.  The estimated cost of the initiative is $101 million in the LNP's first year of government.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/state-election-2012/poll-call-march-14-20120314-1uz3j.html#ixzz1p36xchs3

Did they get the decimal point in the wrong place?  It shouldn't cost that much.  7.5% of 1 years fares is about $22.5m.

EDIT: Thread here: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7868.0

[ozbob]

Twitter

29m Chris O'Brien ‏ @ChrisOBrienABC

. @Campbell_Newman promises to cut public transport fare increases; ie to go up by 7.5% not 15% #qldvotes http://pic.twitter.com/Oo3iGRBt

[mufreight]

Still in excess of the CPI and also a 7.5% increase compared to the 0% car registration increase which will effectively push more commuters off public transport and back into private cars on ecenomic grounds.  The circus moves on.

[Stillwater]

The cost of the LNP promise to halve the increase in fares back to 7.5 per cent will cost $101 billion in the first TERM (three years) of a new government, not year.

[Cam]

The cost of the LNP promise to halve the increase in fares back to 7.5 per cent will cost $101 billion in the first TERM (three years) of a new government, not year.

I think you mean't to state million, not billion.

[Jonno]

No mention of the accumulative tax savings from reduced road subidies that it it will also generate.