What should we be lobbying for?

[#Metro]

To get back on topic - I believe we should be lobbying for Federal Government committment to investment in long haul passenger services. Including:-

* Committment to High Speed Rail on viable routes - especially Canberra - Sydney, Sydney - Newcastle, and eventually Sydney - Brisbane and Canberra-Melbourne

Agreed, but I really would like the costs/benefits really scrutinised. I find the unit costs/km quoted to be quite unbelievably small actually. Which might indicate gross cost underestimation. If this idea is to go ahead, a single, short line along the most viable route- maybe Canberra-Sydney should be built as a test.

    * Committment to upgrading and rebuilding existing main line routes (like Sydney - Melbourne) to improve alignment and remove curves that were built to avoid hills when the lines were first laid almost 150 years ago.

Sounds fine, rail freight will boom in the future. People also hate trucks on suburban streets, even more during the night.

    * Electrification and duplication of high-use long distance freight and passenger lines - especially between Brisbane - Sydney - Canberra - Melbourne

Might be a good idea. No strong opinion either way.

    * Committment to either a Federal Government Authority or a Ministerial Council to oversee the building and integration of public transport across State boarders (but it would want to work better than the Murray Darling Basin Commission!)

A good idea. There are smart cards being rolled out in almost all states and territories I know of, imagine if they were all inter-operable with each other.

[frereOP]

    * Committment to either a Federal Government Authority or a Ministerial Council to oversee the building and integration of public transport across State boarders (but it would want to work better than the Murray Darling Basin Commission!)

A good idea. There are smart cards being rolled out in almost all states and territories I know of, imagine if they were all inter-operable with each other.

Just like VISA, MC, AMEX and DC credit cards killed off BankCard, stored value smart cards issued by those organisations will make dedicated smart cards like Go Card, Oyster etc redundant and they will eventually have the same functionality as the cards they displace.

[somebody]

Of course, there is no point electrifying the Syd-Mel corridor unless there are large scale deviations Junee-Syd.  Electrification is not a priority.

To be honest, I think RailBoT has established itself as a Qld lobbyist, so may as well stick to that until such a time as most of the issues are sorted.

[frereOP]

Of course, there is no point electrifying the Syd-Mel corridor unless there are large scale deviations Junee-Syd.  Electrification is not a priority.

To be honest, I think RailBoT has established itself as a Qld lobbyist, so may as well stick to that until such a time as most of the issues are sorted.

Wrong on both counts.  Who say's electrification is not a priority?  Electrification should be a part of a realignment project.  Hunderds of kilometers would be cut from a trip between Sydney and Melbourne and it would allow higher average speeds.  Last time I did the trip, the average speed Sydney to Wagga was 37kph.  The Great Southern Line has more than enough traffic to warrant electrification which is a step in the right direction to reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

This forum is a national forum and should stay that way.  This is a federal election and what we should be lobbying for here are national projects underpinned by national policies.

[somebody]

Where in the world is electrification a priority for freight rail?  Take a look at the US, the land of freight rail, I think it may be all diesel.  Even in QLD, there is a lot of diesels running around under wires, even if the full trip is under wires AIUI.

I do laugh at the suggestion RailBoT is national.

[frereOP]

Where in the world is electrification a priority for freight rail?  Take a look at the US, the land of freight rail, I think it may be all diesel.  Even in QLD, there is a lot of diesels running around under wires, even if the full trip is under wires AIUI.

I do laugh at the suggestion RailBoT is national.

Ah, well, Europe for a start where non-electrified lines are rare and almost all rail freight is hauled by electric locomotives.  France even has freight running on dedicated TGV lines in specially built TGV freight cars at TGV speeds (all electric).  Now I wouldn't go around touting the US a leading light with respect to state-of-the-art rail, or for mitigation of greenhouse gas emissions!  The more diesel they can burn, the better they like it!

RailBoT does address national issues which is why it has a "National" forum area.  Given most of its members are Qld-based, it must be by its very nature largely Qld-centric.  That doesn't mean it should ditch the rest though.  After all QR is the second biggest national rail freight company!

[somebody]

Have a look at this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_the_United_States

Specifically, part of the first paragraph:

by 2000, the share of U.S. rail freight was 38% while in Europe only 8% of freight traveled by rail

[ozbob]

Freight rail in the USA has been and is a success, even if mainly DEL loco hauled.

--> http://www.economist.com/node/16636101

[somebody]

Freight rail in the USA has been and is a success, even if mainly DEL loco hauled.

--> http://www.economist.com/node/16636101

Could it be that's because they focus on the basics - curves, grades, axle loads, terminal handling and don't get distracted by things like electrification?

[ozbob]

Could it be that's because they focus on the basics - curves, grades, axle loads, terminal handling and don't get distracted by things like electrification?

In part I agree, but they have  a real economy of scale.  Similar to what we have with the long runs across Oz for example.  Road truck trailers on the trains increasingly.  Double stacks.  Look at the frequency of freight trains in the map, it is busy!

http://www.aar.org/PubCommon/Documents/AboutTheIndustry/Overview.pdf

[Golliwog]

I don't think Europes poor rail freight mode share has anything to do with their systems. You're forgetting its europe, half the time its a lot easier to drive it all the way than to drive it to the rail freight yard, simply because europe is a lot smaller than Australia and the US

[somebody]

I don't think Europes poor rail freight mode share has anything to do with their systems. You're forgetting its europe, half the time its a lot easier to drive it all the way than to drive it to the rail freight yard, simply because europe is a lot smaller than Australia and the US

There is probably significant "break of gauge culture" in Europe due to the borders too.  I'm not convinced that it doesn't have anything to do with their systems though.  The US is big enough to have multiple vertically integrated operators, which has necessitated developping good systems, which pretty much follows from ozbob's point.  And going back to the original point, notice how electrification doesn't rate a mention.

[somebody]

Road truck trailers on the trains increasingly. 

FWIW, I understand they are going away from this and back to containerisation.  Same with the bi-modal trailers as the strengthenning required for rail use costs weight, which reduces payload on road.  I would think that across the continent this wouldn't be a big deal, but it does increase costs I guess.

Back on topic, ozbob, does this poll justify a media release in your opinion?

[ozbob]

In time for sure, like a few more responses if we can ...

Good stuff for the 2nd of August at BI too.

But, it confirms the constant push for frequency improvements, the bottom line so to speak!

[somebody]

In case anyone who is not a member wants to see the results, they are (from 19 voters):
12 - 15 minute off peak frequency
3 - Duplication Beerburrum-Landsborough
1 each: peak timetable re-write, CRR2, 4th track electrification/platform at Oxley, Duplication Landsborough-Nambour.

[ozbob]

What would be useful is to do this again without frequency, to see what projects folks see as a priority other than CRR.

[somebody]

What would be useful is to do this again without frequency, to see what projects folks see as a priority other than CRR.

Ok, but that's not the point I was trying to make here.

Perhaps what would have been better is to allow 2 votes and include CRR1.  My assumption is that everyone would tick that, but you know what they say about "assume".  Actually, allowing 3 votes on a similar poll with CRR1 would probably be good.

[#Metro]

What would be useful is to do this again without frequency, to see what projects folks see as a priority other than CRR.

Done!

CRR1 has been skipped in the new poll ,as that is pretty much consensus that should be built. Kippa-Ring is still there, you never know, it might get shelved again.

[ozbob]

Thanks,  I think Petrie Kippa Ring will be done now. I think we have enough water in the dams to make it before another 'crisis' ...   

[ozbob]

Media Release 29 July 2010

SEQ:  It's 'frequency' stupid ...

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters has again called for an increase in train frequency on all lines. The most important factor to encourage public transport use is that services must be frequent, bottom line.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"South-east Queensland has a rail network in place.  Planned network expansions are needed but it is important to maximise the utility of existing rail infrastructure. The frequency of trains is very poor overall in south-east Queensland, and the greatest impact to drive change is to simply increase service frequency."

"A recent internal poll amongst RAIL Back On Track members has again confirmed the issue of most importance to members, namely the poor frequency of rail services (1)."

"We note Queensland Rail has advertised for part time train drivers and guards(2). This will lead to more operational flexibility and the ability to sustain peak loadings, but importantly further support a higher out of peak train frequency."

Reference:

1.  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4144.0

2.  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4168.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[#Metro]

The 3 silver bullets are:
* Frequency
* Network planning (making sure there is a dedicated bus to the rail station)
* Co-ordination to make sure that the bus meets every train like clockwork, and that times services arrive are not random and difficult to remember.

TransLink - integrated public transport for South East Queensland

http://www.translink.com.au/