What should we be lobbying for?

[somebody]

Just like it says.  My personal feeling is the 15 minute frequency off peak is it, but I have been surprised before.

EDIT: Meant to also add:
Keperra-Ferny Grove duplication
Coomera-Helensvale duplication
Lawnton-Petrie triplication
Kuraby-Kingston triplication

Can these options be added by an admin?

[Arnz]

Beerburrum-Landsborough duplication
Landsborough-Nambour duplication

[somebody]

Beerburrum-Landsborough duplication
Landsborough-Nambour duplication

Yes, Ok, can we add those too? Or actually, add Beerburrum-Landborough & Beerburrum-Nambour.

[ozbob]

All of the above poll options are important in their context.  We have and continue to push hard for increased frequency but unless there are the track amplifications, stabling and other network improvements (conflict removal/improvement, signal upgrades and so forth) it is not going to be achieved.

[Jonno]

I would add a change in planning approach which establishes active, freight  rail and public transport levels at greater than 60 or 70 percent of all trips. It is this paradigm shift in planning that will see all of the above as critical part of the solution not fantasy.

[#Metro]

Fix the frequency!

High frequency timed feeder buses to railway stations meeting every train can boost the potential patronage dramatically, and this can be the justification for higher frequency services.

There is one other thing: Expenditure on public transport must be equal to or greater than 50% for transportation budgets. The latest "infrastructure plans" which are only too happy to tout public transport, when you look at the numbers, are actually very heavily biased to more road construction. I think it is something like 40:60 funding split between PT : Roads

[somebody]

I would add a change in planning approach which establishes active, freight  rail and public transport levels at greater than 60 or 70 percent of all trips. It is this paradigm shift in planning that will see all of the above as critical part of the solution not fantasy.

But that's a more long term goal.  What about the nearer term objectives which make it easier to rely on PT?  We can't get to the longer term goals without hitting the nearer term ones first.

All of the above poll options are important in their context.  We have and continue to push hard for increased frequency but unless there are the track amplifications, stabling and other network improvements (conflict removal/improvement, signal upgrades and so forth) it is not going to be achieved.

I strongly disagree with this, I'm afraid.  Without getting them to do things that they can do now, it seems likely that they won't take advantage of new infrastructure when they get it.  And this is exactly what has happenned - witness CAB-Beerburrum duplication & straightenning and Mitchelton-Keperra duplication which resulted in no timetable changes.

[ozbob]

Hello?  How you can disagree with pushing for frequency??

Simply making the point you don't just concentrate on one issue, they are all related ...  when lobbying it is necessary to break it up.  To eat an elephant you break it up in small pieces.

[#Metro]

But that's a more long term goal.  What about the nearer term objectives which make it easier to rely on PT?  We can't get to the longer term goals without hitting the nearer term ones first.

I think fixing the frequency can be done sooner rather than later. It seems that everything but fixing the frequency has been done- QR demerger, new logos, new uniforms, new signs, new ticketing (go card), new trains, new train livery, new tracks, new stations/station upgrades... Identify the bottlenecks and problem areas- I think the problem was more staff and more trains.

OK, some areas cannot handle trains every 15 minutes (or so I am told), but wherever it can be supported, it can be put in. Timed high frequency feeder buses to rail will also make sure that the trains have passengers on them.

[ozbob]

Unless there are enough crew and trains and track capacity 15 minutes is not achievable.  What is more achievable is a progressive ramp up.  This is in fact what has been flagged with the Ipswich - Caboolture changes in 2011.  Other lines will follow.  I am actually of the view that as an interim step 20 minutes is better than 30 minutes where 15 minutes cannot be achieved.  The Sunshine Coast line needs a lot better service frequency.  A rail bus solution is only a part solution, only a stop gap.  Big problem though is the single line north of Beerburrum.  Did you know that  early work had actually started on the Beerburrum to Landsborough duplication when it was pulled.  Why was it pulled?   The great water pipeline crisis had a bit to do with it .. broke the bank did that little water crisis. Not withstanding the single line there is room for more passenger services now.  As for most lines.  The one constant over the past 4 years from us has been increased frequency demands, and will remain so.  Public transport share will sky rocket once rail frequency is improved, bus - rail integration a lot better.  PT becomes a much more attractive option.

[somebody]

Hello?  How you can disagree with pushing for frequency??

That's not what I meant.  Don't think it's what I said either.

The point I was trying to make is that the majority of the infrastructure projects we sometimes harp on about aren't really required to improve the service.  We need to focus on services more then we currently do IMO.  Even Corinda-Darra is something we can probably live with.  There's a couple of conflicting moves which will occur and reduce reliability, and QldRail may get sick of that and eventually fix it.

Unless there are enough crew and trains and track capacity 15 minutes is not achievable. 

Reports on this board are that many crew have been trained and this is less of a problem now.  Of course, I do agree that an overnight change is unnachievable.

[#Metro]

Unless there are enough crew and trains and track capacity 15 minutes is not achievable.

More trains, more crew, remove bottlenecks.  

Maybe it would be helpful to have a list of critical bottlenecks to iron out for each line. For the Beenleigh/Gold Coast/FG lines this is mainly the Merivale Bridge capacity, so CRR should solve that.

If 15 mins is not achievable, what about every 20 minutes?

[ozbob]

Fair enough.  We may yet see some further refinements on Corinda to Darra (improved access from the Up Sub down from Corinda to the new up sub for example,  or maybe full electrification of the UP sub from Corinda to the Brickworks)  but even as is it will be the major catalyst out west.

I must admit I am looking forward to Darra being a bit like Flinders Street station ..  

[Jonno]

If transport planning continues to falsely assume that active and public transport might grow if we are really really lucky to 30% then the pollies will always assume that greater frequency is not required.  Why do you think they have not even looked like doing it until this year.  It is the mind set that needs to change first.

[#Metro]

If transport planning continues to falsely assume that active and public transport might grow if we are really really lucky to 30% then the pollies will always assume that greater frequency is not required.  Why do you think they have not even looked like doing it until this year.  It is the mind set that needs to change first.

I've come around to this view.
Poor frequency (or service in general!) begets poor patronage.
Poor patronage begets poor frequency (because the planners look at the patronage, oh, nobody wants to catch the service...). It is a cycle that can be broken.

[ozbob]

I am of the view Jonno that there is starting to be a mind set shift up top.  The Growth Management summit and the reality of a failing road system with out of control health costs is starting to focus a few minds.  Public transport saves money, big money.  That is the bottom line.  Unfortunately the political process can subvert this growing mind shift, look at the populist nonsense being rolled out already by the red and blue mobs.  $2000 for clunkers!  Crazy.  The only sensible statement I have seen so far related to this looming federal elections is by the greens, and a sound bite by Brown arguing for fast rail.

[#Metro]

Not to mention car 'research' subsidies. As if they don't make huge profits already!

[ozbob]

Poor frequency (or service in general!) begets poor patronage.

Indeed TT. It is time to 'loss lead'.   This a variation of a commercial marketing strategy.  You put the services on and they will be filled!

[somebody]

If transport planning continues to falsely assume that active and public transport might grow if we are really really lucky to 30% then the pollies will always assume that greater frequency is not required.  Why do you think they have not even looked like doing it until this year.  It is the mind set that needs to change first.

You may be interested in the "Transport NSW" corporate plan's targets (p32) http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/Corporate-Plan-2010-2014.pdf

Improve the public transport system
Increase the share of commute trips made by public transport:
To and from Sydney CBD during peak hours 80%
To and from Parramatta CBD during peak hours 50%
To and from Newcastle CBD during peak hours 20%
To and from Wollongong CBD during peak hours 15%
To and from Liverpool CBD during peak hours 20%
To and from Penrith CBD during peak hours 25%
Proportion of total journeys to work by public transport in the Sydneymetropolitan region 28%

Sydney definitely needs to improve PT usage off peak though.  A lot of roads are busy 12h/day.

[#Metro]

I think this is the wrong/not quite right yet approach. Targets are good, but often the focus is on "solutions that involve concrete" and big $$$, and not planning and timing or co-ordination which is boring but effective. Sydney's lack of an integrated fare system (different from integrated ticketing) and non-integration of the ticketing/fares with the light rail system are abominations.


There is another problem:

Improve the public transport system
Increase the share of commute trips made by public transport:
To and from Sydney CBD during peak hours 80%
To and from Parramatta CBD during peak hours 50%
To and from Newcastle CBD during peak hours 20%
To and from Wollongong CBD during peak hours 15%
To and from Liverpool CBD during peak hours 20%
To and from Penrith CBD during peak hours 25%
Proportion of total journeys to work by public transport in the Sydneymetropolitan region 28%

There seems to be this fixation of the peak hour, and that any recreational or off-peak trips being just "fluff".
This fixation on the peak hour also means a focus on radial-CBD routes, to the neglect of off-peak, cross-town and feeder linkages IMHO. The aim should be, when people want PT they should just get it whenever they want, to wherever they want.

[somebody]

There seems to be this fixation of the peak hour, and that any recreational or off-peak trips being just "fluff".

TT, that is the point I was making with my last sentence.

often the focus is on "solutions that involve concrete" and big $$$, and not planning and timing or co-ordination which is boring but effective.

That's true in QLD, not so much in NSW.

[somebody]

I was actually hoping for a unanimous verdict on the timetabling, but it is clear 11 vs 3.  Infrastructure (besides CRR phase 1) loses.

[ozbob]

Small sample but significant.  In line with a lot of feedback.  I was asked the other day what is the most important issue at the moment?

My response 'the need to increase frequency of rail services' ..

[SteelPan]

FREE BEER FOR ALL 

[#Metro]

FREE BEER FOR ALL  Grin

Food, bicycles and water bottles allowed on trains.
If dogs, prams and wheelchairs can go on it, so can these.

[#Metro]

Sunshine Coast services. The services up there are truly not world-class.
The train frequency is horrible, the journey times are just too long. A railway to Maroochydore is the long term solution.
Much traffic could be taken off the Sunshine Coast motorway and northern arterials IMHO.

A quick look:
Bus 605, then train.
40 minutes to get to the rail station by bus 605
Wait 10 minutes
Train arrives central 77 minutes later:
Time tally: 127 minutes or 2 hours and 6 minutes, but this does not take into account waiting time
(average waiting time is half headway, so about 15 minutes, 30 minutes or more at other times)- so ~ 2 hours 21 minutes

Car travel from Kawana Shopping World, Tumut Street, (Google Maps- 1 hour 40 minutes)
PT is about 41 minutes slower.

[somebody]

On your journey time point, even the Gold Coast line is a pretty poor performer here, and that has full time express services and up to 140km/h running.  City-Indro is about the only corridor which is any good, although only really due to traffic congestion on Coro.

[#Metro]

On your journey time point, even the Gold Coast line is a pretty poor performer here, and that has full time express services and up to 140km/h running.  City-Indro is about the only corridor which is any good, although only really due to traffic congestion on Coro.

True, but a lot of that is waiting time at the bus stop -- 15 minutes in the morning (2 trains/hour) or 30+ minutes at other times (one train/hour). Average waiting time -- is half the headway (time between a service and the next).

That time can be cut by just putting more services on. A single extra service every hour, in the off peak hours, could cut the average waiting time by 15 minutes (from a 30 min wait to 15 mins). A single extra service in the morning a.m. (from 2 trains/hour to 3 trains/hour) can reduce average waiting time from 15 to 10 minutes.

I don't know about technical particulars on the Sunshine Coast, but would a permanent Gold-Coast style express help (maybe if the badly needed CAMCOS ever gets built) or a high speed service (like VFT in Victoria)? IMHO the station spacing and the number of stops limits the practical speed, however on the Sunshine Coast line, the spacing between stations is very large (~ 5km I would estimate) which should allow very high speed operation.

I don't know. I just feel very sorry for people who live on the Sunshine Coast. The service is just shocking.

[#Metro]

PS:Maybe there should be basic feeder services too, like out to Maleny etc. Hourly?
A feeder bus and transfer based network is probably the only effective PT strategy at low densities like this.
Also good for BRT and BUZ like services in the smaller towns.

[Arnz]

Glasshouse Country Coaches already provides a Maleny-Landsborough Station-Beerwah cross country service.   In addition, there is a Nambour-Mapleton-Montville-Maleny hinterland service by the same company.

Unfortunately, both services are under the QConnect system (not TransLink), and thus does not take gocards.

[#Metro]

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/resources/file/eb90ea0773fb39b/Pdf_hinterland_connect_timetable.pdf

To be honest, I had no idea there was a bus!
The first one in the morning to Nambour is a bit off with the timing, but the others are timed to connect.
You have to search for it in TransLink journey planner using "available service".

How are people supposed to know that this bus exists? The "Available service" drop down should be scrapped-all services should appear and then the option to filter out non-TL services should be presented after the search is done. It's funded by the Qld Government and Sunshine Coast Regional Council anyway.

They should accept GoCards. Airtrain is not a Translink service; TransLink journey planner has no problem displaying the fares and the timetable for this service even though it is private. Why should any other non-TL public transport service be any different?

[somebody]

On your journey time point, even the Gold Coast line is a pretty poor performer here, and that has full time express services and up to 140km/h running.  City-Indro is about the only corridor which is any good, although only really due to traffic congestion on Coro.

True, but a lot of that is waiting time at the bus stop -- 15 minutes in the morning (2 trains/hour) or 30+ minutes at other times (one train/hour). Average waiting time -- is half the headway (time between a service and the next).

That time can be cut by just putting more services on. A single extra service every hour, in the off peak hours, could cut the average waiting time by 15 minutes (from a 30 min wait to 15 mins). A single extra service in the morning a.m. (from 2 trains/hour to 3 trains/hour) can reduce average waiting time from 15 to 10 minutes.

I don't know about technical particulars on the Sunshine Coast, but would a permanent Gold-Coast style express help (maybe if the badly needed CAMCOS ever gets built) or a high speed service (like VFT in Victoria)? IMHO the station spacing and the number of stops limits the practical speed, however on the Sunshine Coast line, the spacing between stations is very large (~ 5km I would estimate) which should allow very high speed operation.

I don't know. I just feel very sorry for people who live on the Sunshine Coast. The service is just shocking.

Even if the waiting time was 0s there is no way that rail is competitive with driving.  And you are thinking of RFR in Vic.

An upgraded Sunshine Coast line would suffer from the same problems as the GC line.  The existing Beenleigh line was so bad that it restricted the usefulness of it.  I don't think the Cab line is nearly as bad as the BNH line though.  On the other hand, there aren't nearly as many people in the catchment.

All this is off topic though.

[Arnz]

The main northern line has triple track to Lawnton, double track Lawnton to Caboolture.  Lawnton-Petrie Bridge costs was one of the main reasons why the triplication project was stopped

The Sunshine Coast Line has a lot more Park'n'Ride/connecting traffic (at Landsborough and Nambour) than O&D passengers.  Low O&D is expected due to the thinly spread population in most hinterland stations with the exceptions being the Palmwoods, Landsborough-Beerwah-Glasshouse areas.  

Landsborough is the busiest station of the line (as this is my home station), the car park is full before 7am each weekday morning, with cars parked out on the street.  Nambour is the 2nd busiest station (as per the last patronage report)

On a on-topic note - 15 mins frequency where possible now is my vote.  However, Petrie-Caboolture is constrained by double track and freight/traveltrain/Nambour expresses thrown in.

[somebody]

On a on-topic note - 15 mins frequency where possible now is my vote.  However, Petrie-Caboolture is constrained by double track and freight/traveltrain/Nambour expresses thrown in.

No way does this prevent such a service.

Sydney has double track Epping-Hornsby, with 4tph all stoppers, frequent Interurbans and freight thrown in for fun.  The real fun comes with the need to co-ordinate the interurbans with the 2tph all stoppers Hornsby-Berowra though.

[#Metro]

Even if the waiting time was 0s there is no way that rail is competitive with driving.  And you are thinking of RFR in Vic.

What is the point of running a rail service if it is going to offer poor service quality?!
People will catch PT if it is fast and frequent. If there is a problem, it needs to be fixed, not ignored.

I have yet to do a proper look at the infrastructure spending, but at first glance it looks like most of the infrastructure QIP funding is directed to motorways on the Sunshine Coast. Fixing rail would be a good idea- you can carry far more people for the amount of money spent on roads.

[somebody]

What is the point of running a rail service if it is going to offer poor service quality?!

I endorse this comment.

But thinking that it is achievable to properly compete with driving off peak?  I don't believe that is doable at all.  The best you can do is narrow the gap.

[#Metro]

I endorse this comment.

But thinking that it is achievable to properly compete with driving off peak?  I don't believe that is doable at all.  The best you can do is narrow the gap.

I really would like to compare the Gold Coast patronage with Sunshine Coast patronage.
They are both strip developments, both have railways which are far from the main, developed areas, both are about as far away from Brisbane, and both have freeways or arterials that go more or less directly to the CBD.

Which one has the better PT? Gold Coast I would think, by a long shot. Rail frequency and all day express is the key I think. High speed operation should be possible with the distances between stations being large.

Sunshine Coast has had a lot of money poured into freeways etc. Its no accident the patronage is so poor out there.
The moment CAMCOS is built, the patronage will skyrocket.

[somebody]

The express operation part is already there on weekdays.

[frereOP]

To get back on topic - I believe we should be lobbying for Federal Government committment to investment in long haul passenger services. Including:-

• Committment to High Speed Rail on viable routes - especially Canberra - Sydney, Sydney - Newcastle, and eventually Sydney - Brisbane and Canberra-Melbourne
• Committment to upgrading and rebuilding existing main line routes (like Sydney - Melbourne) to improve alignment and remove curves that were built to avoid hills when the lines were first laid almost 150 years ago.
• Electrification and duplication of high-use long distance freight and passenger lines - especially between Brisbane - Sydney - Canberra - Melbourne
• Committment to either a Federal Government Authority or a Ministerial Council to oversee the building and integration of public transport across State boarders (but it would want to work better than the Murray Darling Basin Commission!)

.
[/list]

[somebody]

A pretty radical shift in our focus there frereOP.  Until now we have been QLD focussed.