104/105/107/108 Revamp

[#Metro]

Well to keep as much of the route as possible, you could head down the busway entrance at the intersection of Annerley Rd, then use the exit just before PA Hospital station and drop passengers underneath the busway there before continuing down Ipswich Rd. Though I think you did say that was a bit of a hike.

Hmmm true. What about the 106 for those dog legs to the health center and high school?

A dedicated school bus and flexilink taxi.

[Golliwog]

Well to keep as much of the route as possible, you could head down the busway entrance at the intersection of Annerley Rd, then use the exit just before PA Hospital station and drop passengers underneath the busway there before continuing down Ipswich Rd. Though I think you did say that was a bit of a hike.

Hmmm true. What about the 106 for those dog legs to the health center and high school?

106?  I think you mean 104.  Just provide a local route with a few trips/day.

Going via the Busway at PAH would be less direct than just using Ipswich Rd, and also likely less convenient for pax.  It would mean you only have one stop rather than a number of stops along Cornwall St & Ipswich Rd.  The advantage would be that it would get you out of Ipswich Rd traffic.  Maybe use the new O'Keefe St portal in the Boggo Rd busway heading away from the CBD.  Don't know why the 100/110/115 don't do so.

But isn't your new route replacing the 104 (and other routes) with the route you've linked to above, which doesn't go near Corinda? The 106 already goes near both locations as I understand, but doesn't link to Corinda station. It does link with Oxley station though.

Hmmm, well if you still wanted to serve Annerley Rd you could run via Ipswich Rd to the PA Hospital first, then go under the PA busway station, onto the Boggo Rd busway and then come up at the intersection at the end of Annerley Rd where the 109 used to go before it became a busway route.

[somebody]

But isn't your new route replacing the 104 (and other routes) with the route you've linked to above, which doesn't go near Corinda? The 106 already goes near both locations as I understand, but doesn't link to Corinda station. It does link with Oxley station though.

Oh, I see what you are saying.  In fact, there is no need for the alternate service, as the 106 provides the service anyway.  I don't think the 106 needs to be diverted into Corinda.  You can interchange at Indooroopilly.

Cool.

[#Metro]

OK I am confused now... 

[somebody]

OK I am confused now... 

The 104 does a few strange things around Corinda, and I was worried about removing that, but the 106 seems to handle it, so there is no problem.

Clear now?

[#Metro]

I just need a map I think- with all the routes in question...

Hope this is not too much trouble...

[somebody]

I don't think I would be happy for my new route to be diverted to Ipswich Rd.  That would be too much of a milk run.  Which may leave us with a necessity to keep a few trips of a Western Line-PA Hospital route.  If the new Annerley Rd route serves Graceville, then that is also where the PA Hospital route should go.  Doing so would increase frequency for cross town trips.

If the new orange route is to use Adelaide St like the 116, then the 112 and 107 should do also.

Here's a map.  I assume you don't need a map for the 106 (Indro-Mt Ommaney via Corinda) or 107 (Yeronga West) since they aren't changing, although the 107 is becoming full time.

[#Metro]

I think the Yeronga 107 can be fixed up as well. It needs the TransLink Steam Iron to go over it.


http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/106937477/Steam_Iron.summ.jpg

[somebody]

I think the Yeronga 107 can be fixed up as well. It needs the TransLink Steam Iron to go over it.

Except for replacing Alice St with Adelaide St, I disagree.  Feel free to suggest something though.  You'd need to have two routes - one Brisbane Corso, the other Kadumba St to improve it in my view.

Why "Translink" steam iron 

[#Metro]

Well I did suggest something earlier on (slightly modified now):

improved 107- follow current route up to Kingsley Parade, Turn right into Hyde Road. (I am looking in Google maps and it looks possible, even at street level; If this fails, use the road next over, Eversly)
Get out of Hyde Road, up Fairfield Road, right turn into Ashby Street, and then

a) terminate at Fairfield Station (They will have to build a bus turnaround, but they're doing this in West End, so not a biggie I would think). 196/197 could also be extended to terminate on the railway side of that shopping centre they have there.

or b) continue to CBD

[somebody]

Well I did suggest something earlier on (slightly modified now):

improved 107- follow current route up to Kingsley Parade, Turn right into Hyde Road. (I am looking in Google maps and it looks possible, even at street level; If this fails, use the road next over, Eversly)
Get out of Hyde Road, up Fairfield Road, right turn into Ashby Street, and then

a) terminate at Fairfield Station (They will have to build a bus turnaround, but they're doing this in West End, so not a biggie I would think). 196/197 could also be extended to terminate on the railway side of that shopping centre they have there.

or b) continue to CBD

But doesn't serve the Turner Ave/Brisbane Corso part of the current route.  Not convinced we can tell these people to walk >500m to Home St, and longer for William Pde.  I see your point though.  Straightening out this route would be a good thing.

May have to think some more about this one.

[#Metro]

I take your point but public transport isn't supposed to provide a car-like experience for everyone. Everybody will say that they want a bus to their front door and a direct trip.
If you try and serve everyone, you end up serving no-one because the route becomes so degraded and windy that it's useless.
Hence the hourly route 105 bus. Totally useless service.

If this area is important then a dog-leg can be introduced into your revised 105 via Ashby, Turner and Stimpson.

[somebody]

I take your point but public transport isn't supposed to provide a car-like experience for everyone. Everybody will say that they want a bus to their front door and a direct trip.
If you try and serve everyone, you end up serving no-one because the route becomes so degraded and windy that it's useless.
Hence the hourly route 105 bus. Totally useless service.

If this area is important then a dog-leg can be introduced into your revised 105 via Ashby, Turner and Stimpson.

That'd avoid Fairfield Gardens.  Wouldn't be happy about that.  I'd rather tell Turner Ave people to walk.

The idea is growing on me.

[#Metro]

One thing that really has annoyed about Brisbane buses is the number of welfare-style routes (basically almost everything that isn't a BUZ) that carry air and are infrequent.
I think Gazza has raised a similar point previously. When are we going to get actual useful services and patronage?

107 can either go to Fairfield Gardens or the CBD; I don't have a strong view on this though I prefer the bus went to the train station seeing it is just in front of it.
105 needs to run on fast arterial roads and needs speed and frequency. At the moment 105 is has rotten apple routing and a severe case of rotten apple frequency.
Why would you bother catching this bus? Bicycle is probably faster and more direct  

Sorry to sound harsh, but there are many places in Brisbane screaming out for more PT and yet we are running buses with air and anti-patronage routings during peak hour. If people want or need a welfare-style service, then they should get one - FLEXILINK rather than force every single service and everybody else to detour just to go outside their house creating a service that repels patronage from other parts (and majority) of the route. FlexiLink would also cover nicely the PA Hospital-104 railbus issue as well and fill in the gaps. Bus stops could be retained as flexilink collection points.

So my solution would be-- fix up the bus routes, and for the dog legs areas, overlay flexilink in the area at the same time
so that people are guaranteed access to the local hospital and or shopping service where they can transfer to the fast arterial bus route.

Other alternative would be: a new peak hour only service via Brisbane Corso, William Pde, Brougham and NewCastle st then Stimpson and CBD.
A CityCat terminal in Brisbane Corso Reserve outside NewCastle Street

[#Metro]

(copied message)

I would agree with Golliwog. 192 does a different catchment area to the West End Ferry. Nobody on Dornoch Tce/Gladstone Rd would catch the ferry, it is simply too far.
That part of West End is also a PT black hole (so close to the city too!).

Quote
The extra trips?  I wonder about the 192.  If the 196/197 served UQ instead of Fairfield Gardens, is the 192 still needed to UQ?

196/197 is a high patronage route in the "1 million" club. I think 196 and 197 should be amalgamated into a single route and the routing in New Farm simplified to follow the river and sub-arterial roads (Moray Street and Oxalade drive) just like a car would. Who drives around Brisbane doing loops in their car? Nobody! Routings must be direct, simple, legible and non-timewasting unless there is a very compelling reason not to do so.

I can see that you'd rather have your improved 105 replace 196/197 and send it up Annerly Road and the Busway. Not a bad idea actually.
West End people could change at Cultural Centre. Route 198 is an air parcel service and should be fed to the scrapper so that other, useful services, can be put on.

The 192 does Gladstone Rd and Dornoch Tce, so still useful.

[#Metro]

Coming to think of it, route 192 is also a waste of time duplicating the CityGlider. Why bother? Remove those bus stops IMHO. People can catch cityglider to the West End Ferry terminal and get a citycat.

So, maybe taking into account what Somebody has said:

* Improved and more frequent 105 (as per Somebody's idea) to replace 196/197 in the Fairfield area. Makes sense. West End people can change at Cultural Centre to the CityGlider, 192 and 199 which are all very frequent. Annerly Road routes are faster plus UQ Lakes people can just get out and walk into Dutton park to get a bus over the Eleanor Schonell Bridge.

* 196 and 197 amalgamated and sent via more direct routing on Oxalade Drive and Moray Street. TransLink iron on full steam setting here!!!

* amalgamated 196/197 sent to UQ Lakes via Gladstone Road (this will be a slight pain in the bum as there is no right turn off Gladstone Rd to UQ Lakes, you have to go do a loop near Dutton Pk Station, but liveable...)

* Route 192 retained on Dornoch Tce but re-routed to travel straight down boundary street (avoids Duplicating 199 and CityGlider and serves a currently unserviced area on Boundary Steet beyond the main shops); Use Bristol St and Katrine St and to get into Dornoch Tce. Parking will have to be banned along on one side of the road on a short section and speed humps removed but this is not insurmountable. Direct turn into Dornoch from Boundary St is not physically possible (due to bridge and tunnel), and beyond this point street layouts do not permit easy exit back on to Dornoch Tce (steep slopes, narrow streets, one way entries).

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=West+End.+Brisbane&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=43.578243,107.841797&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=West+End+Queensland,+Australia&ll=-27.486797,153.01131&spn=0.001506,0.003291&t=h&z=19

* Removal of all 192 bus services from Montague Road (expensive and unnecessary duplication of CityGlider).

* Abolish route 198.

[#Metro]

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=West+End.+Brisbane&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=43.578243,107.841797&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=West+End+Queensland,+Australia&ll=-27.487011,153.009295&spn=0.012049,0.026329&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=-27.484996,153.011291&panoid=noqfwUkk50r4eEFbzZ79aw&cbp=12,210.04,,0,1.91

This street has no bus service! It is a fast sub-arterial road just a few km from the CBD!

[somebody]

Why'd you copy those posts into this thread??!!  It's marginally on topic in the 192 thread.

Quickly though, Boundary St, West End has service north of Vulture St (199).  I guess the theory is that the 192 covers Dornoch Tce, so everyone has a <=400m walk.  192 is all stops not pre paid, but the CityGlider is pre paid and limited stops.  May be grounds for a Boundary St service, all stops, non pre paid CityGlider (or 192BUZ to West End Ferry replacing CityGlider).  But if you want to talk some more, I suggest a new thread.

[#Metro]

Route 105 (improved- minus Yeronga dog leg, as per Somebody's plan) : Frequency increased to be similar to a BUZ and go direct to CBD via Fairfield Rd, Annerly Rd and busway. Passengers for West End and UQ can change buses at Annerly Road/Gladstone Rd intersection (signs and paint required) or change at Cultural Centre to a 199/CityGlider.

This will speed up passengers going to Fairfield, Yeronga and Tennyson and increase frequency for Yeronga and Tennyson.
196 could be sent to UQ Lakes or terminated near PA Hospital/Dutton Pk/Buranda Shops. There are a number of options for ending...

RED: UQ Lakes-West End-CBD-New Farm
BLUE Indooroopilly-Tennyson-Yeronga (stick to Fairfield Rd, no diversion), Fairfield, Dutton Pk, Annerly, Busway & CBD.

[Golliwog]

More than just paint would be needed. As the intersection currently stands, you can't turn right from Gladstone Rd into the busway. As I understand it, the 192 currently does some loop thing further along the road and comes back. And then you would have to much around with the phases of the lights and try and get it to balance so that traffic doesn't back up. And not sure how well your intercahnge stop would work, would have to be a fair bit before the intersection for the Annerley Rd route as theres 2 turn right lanes but they have to get across 2 straight ahead lanes first.

Just out of curiosity, but would there be a market for a peak only Fairfield service that runs via the busway?

[#Metro]

More than just paint would be needed. As the intersection currently stands, you can't turn right from Gladstone Rd into the busway. As I understand it, the 192 currently does some loop thing further along the road and comes back. And then you would have to much around with the phases of the lights and try and get it to balance so that traffic doesn't back up.

This is correct, you can't turn right from Gladstone Road into UQ Lakes, You have to go to Dutton Park train station and then down to UQ Lakes. There's no need to change the traffic light sequences here.
However, this now gives you TWO places to interchange- at the Annerly Rd/Gladstone Road/UQ Lakes intersection,and also the intersection outside Dutton Pk station.

And not sure how well your intercahnge stop would work, would have to be a fair bit before the intersection for the Annerley Rd route as theres 2 turn right lanes but they have to get across 2 straight ahead lanes first.

People going to UQ Lakes on bus routes 107 and 105 get off at the bus stop located near the intersection and then Cross Gladstone Road and walk into Dutton park to catch a bus or go over the Bridge.
So people wanting to go to West End from Fairfield could do exactly the same thing, except walk to the bus stop that is just 10m or so on the corner of Gladstone Road.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Fairfield+QLD,+Australia&aq=0&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=42.360237,122.607422&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Fairfield+Queensland,+Australia&ll=-27.497347,153.027134&spn=0.000727,0.001871&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=-27.497347,153.027134&panoid=R0AE2uHCUBKn9BoAhOtiiA&cbp=12,319.73,,0,8.9

Just out of curiosity, but would there be a market for a peak only Fairfield service that runs via the busway?

There already is. The patrons on route 107 (peak hour only), route 108 (peak hour only) and 105 (peak hour boosted, hourly off peak and with dog-leg).

[somebody]

More than just paint would be needed. As the intersection currently stands, you can't turn right from Gladstone Rd into the busway.

That's a limitation.  I assumed that whatever the 192 could do, so could the 196, and that would still be true.  Why can't there be a "buses excepted" on the right hand turn out of Gladstone Rd?  There is a substantial right hand turn heading in the opposite direction to continue along Annerley Rd.

[#Metro]

At the moment that is a pedestrian island. But perhaps it could be provided? Why not? Seems like a good idea....

[Golliwog]

HUh, I'd never noticed that before. I thought atm it was only UQ routes that used the Eastern Busway.

[#Metro]

77 uses parts of the Boggo Road Busway. But it is mainly UQ routes.

[somebody]

In fact, why should we accept the Green St bit of the route?  Just run from the Cardross St bridge, continue along School Rd and turn left into Park Rd.  There may be 5 minutes or more which can be taken out of the route between that and using King Arthur Tce.

[Andrew]

In fact, why should we accept the Green St bit of the route?  Just run from the Cardross St bridge, continue along School Rd and turn left into Park Rd.  There may be 5 minutes or more which can be taken out of the route between that and using King Arthur Tce.

As a bus driver who does the route 104 & 105, I can tell you that King Arthur Tce would only have the advantage of servicing the Tennis Centre.  Time wise, it is not that much of a gain (perhaps 1-2 mins max) due to traffic calming which is not exactly designed for buses (I have taken a bus through there once or twice).  It would also mean bypassing the businesses on the southern side of the railway line near Tennyson.  Secondly, the reason it goes down Green St is to connect with the train station better (and also historically what eventually became the 105/108 used to terminate at Yeerongpilly on short trips sometimes).  As good as the suggestions are, I don't think there is significant enough advantage to change the route.

Also the Yeronga loop on the 105 only adds an extra 10-12 mins as well as providing a link between Yeronga and Indooroopilly.  As much as I would like to do something about the loop, it is efficient at what it does.  I think it would be hard to match the 105 route efficiency (as opposed to time efficiency) with alternative proposals.

[#Metro]

As a bus driver who does the route 104 & 105, I can tell you that King Arthur Tce would only have the advantage of servicing the Tennis Centre.  Time wise, it is not that much of a gain (perhaps 1-2 mins max) due to traffic calming which is not exactly designed for buses (I have taken a bus through there once or twice).  It would also mean bypassing the businesses on the southern side of the railway line near Tennyson.

Where are these businesses? I think this is a bit of a dillemma- the density and tennis centre are not "on the way" and King Arthur Tce through the tennis centre is traffic calmed. On the other hand stopping in front of the tennis centre would improve access to that venue and also to the larger buildings that have gone up there.
http://maps.google.com.au/maps?client=safari&q=Tennyson&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF8&hl=en&ll=-27.524866,153.008544&spn=0.006184,0.01766&t=h&z=17


Secondly, the reason it goes down Green St is to connect with the train station better (and also historically what eventually became the 105/108 used to terminate at Yeerongpilly on short trips sometimes).  As good as the suggestions are, I don't think there is significant enough advantage to change the route.

Also the Yeronga loop on the 105 only adds an extra 10-12 mins as well as providing a link between Yeronga and Indooroopilly.  As much as I would like to do something about the loop, it is efficient at what it does.  I think it would be hard to match the 105 route efficiency (as opposed to time efficiency) with alternative proposals.

I would disagree with this one. 105 can be unreliable and 10-12 minutes is a lot of time to be taking through passengers with destinations such as City or Indooroopilly through there. Much better to have 107 all day I think as Simon suggested.

Every Brisbane RAIL BOT should be initiated onto this forum by taking a trip through Yeronga 105 during peak hour.  
Would be interesting to see alternative proposals. I think a ferry stop at the park near the river would help.

[somebody]

In fact, why should we accept the Green St bit of the route?  Just run from the Cardross St bridge, continue along School Rd and turn left into Park Rd.  There may be 5 minutes or more which can be taken out of the route between that and using King Arthur Tce.

As a bus driver who does the route 104 & 105, I can tell you that King Arthur Tce would only have the advantage of servicing the Tennis Centre.  Time wise, it is not that much of a gain (perhaps 1-2 mins max) due to traffic calming which is not exactly designed for buses (I have taken a bus through there once or twice).  It would also mean bypassing the businesses on the southern side of the railway line near Tennyson.  Secondly, the reason it goes down Green St is to connect with the train station better (and also historically what eventually became the 105/108 used to terminate at Yeerongpilly on short trips sometimes).  As good as the suggestions are, I don't think there is significant enough advantage to change the route.

Also the Yeronga loop on the 105 only adds an extra 10-12 mins as well as providing a link between Yeronga and Indooroopilly.  As much as I would like to do something about the loop, it is efficient at what it does.  I think it would be hard to match the 105 route efficiency (as opposed to time efficiency) with alternative proposals.

How many people actually get on/off along Tennyson Memorial Ave?  I've never seen anyone that I can recall.  By going that way you are missing Tennyson Reach apartments (which flooded).  A reasonable service may get patronage from these apartments.  But it may need to be a BUZ level really to get much.

I understand the Green St bit being to serve the train station, but it doesn't connect to the trains in any way.  Doing a search in the journey planner from Camelot St, Tennyson to South Bank shows 2 options: 105 direct, or 105 to Indooroopilly and two trains.  Perhaps if you are heading to somewhere south on the Beenleigh line.  What is disappointing is the lack of a stop on Fairfield Rd in both directions.  Of course, heading south the pedestrian bridge which would be needed has been demolished.  However, it may not be too far a walk from King Arthur Tce west of the easternmost roundabout.

[somebody]

I've updated the proposed route for the via Tennyson replacement route (1 route).  Yeronga West could be done by something similar to the 107.

Here's a link to the image if you don't like kmls: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-CYpLck7HGNo/Tg68KJTzkTI/AAAAAAAAAFs/b_C7BQREbGU/s800/new_104.JPG

I've kept the Green St bit, mostly because I can see that there may be a need for Park Rd to be served south of School Rd.

[ozbob]

Media release 3 July 2011

SEQ: 104 not effectively replacing Tennyson trains, time to value add

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers calls for a review of the effectiveness of replacing the Tennyson trains with 104 bus services.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Anecdotal evidence suggests that the 40 daily 104 bus services are carrying less than 10% of the passengers which the via Tennyson trains carried previously, and these trains only ran 4 times daily in the peak direction and had 5 other services.  RAIL Back On Track members suggest that the main reason for this is the failure to extend the 104 to serve Mater Hill, South Bank and the Cultural Centre.  Serving the CBD would also mean a rough doubling the frequency for Fairfield Rd/Park Rd, Yeronga."

"We applaud TransLink's concept of the 104, 105, 107 and 108 services all serving the Boggo Rd and PA Hospital Busway stations.  This also improves the idea of connecting all of the via Tennyson bus services with Graceville Railway Station and Indooroopilly interchange.  That would allow a single route for via Tennyson similar to what has been previously proposed (1,2) which would be combined with a Yeronga West route."

"Increasing the direct service for Fairfield Gardens would be a real benefit for negligible additional costs.  There could be a service meeting every train from Ipswich at Graceville by consolidating the 105's Tennyson service onto this single proposed route (3)."

"RAIL Back On Track members and the community generally would also like to see the PM via Tennyson trains return, which could remain even after the phase two timetable reviews as these trains ran before the evening peak services and so there were no capacity issues over the Merivale Bridge with them.  These trains were used by a large number of school children as well as others."

References:

1. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5808.0

2. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5681.0

3. https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-CYpLck7HGNo/Tg68KJTzkTI/AAAAAAAAAFs/b_C7BQREbGU/s800/new_104.JPG

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org