RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: GonzoFonzie on October 29, 2024, 00:47:58 AMBus Network Guide: https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2024-10/20241028-Brisbanes-New-Bus-Network-guide.pdf

Can anyone verify that the 301, 306, 322, 330, and 385 will no longer go to and terminate at The Cultural Centre, but at the Queen Street Busway Station?

Use the interactive map (which has had updates). It looks like that's yes, they terminate as QSBS.
https://caportal.com.au/bcc/brisbane-metro
It has extra details, for these northern routes:
"This route will also no longer service King George Square station, to enable metro services at this station."

Has anyone read the proposed stop changes for the Maroon Glider? It will stop at KGS in one direction (towards Cooparoo), and QSBS in the other direction.

The reasoning is to provide a connection to Route 222 in the towards Coorparoo direction, and to connect to the 385 in the Ashgrove direction.

Quote from: nathandavid88 on October 29, 2024, 09:36:06 AMHas anyone read the proposed stop changes for the Maroon Glider? It will stop at KGS in one direction (towards Cooparoo), and QSBS in the other direction.

The reasoning is to provide a connection to Route 222 in the towards Coorparoo direction, and to connect to the 385 in the Ashgrove direction.

You have to click on the left tab, under 'What's Changing' to see this:
        *When travelling towards Coorparoo Square, Route 61 will service Roma Street busway station and King George Square station to provide a connection to Route 222 – Carindale to City.
        *When travelling towards Ashgrove, Route 61 will service Queen Street bus station and Roma Street busway station to provide a connection to Route 385 - The Gap to City.

The initial comments are misleading. There is no way it would run on Roma Street and George Streets.  Still this is confusing.

Overall it feels underwhelming, the intial changes were pretty mild in the first place, though they did at least achieve the 125, 175 and 185 mergers for weekday HF, which is something, but that's about the only real benefit that has come about. Ironically these 3 main changes could have been done without metro.
A fair bit of feedback about maintainin specific connections, which has driven the network design relaly.

A fairly large number of routes still service the city, there hasn't really been any attempts to experiment with a HF feeder into the metro, a key tenet of why they were doing the project.

Many mergers havent gone ahead, eg 375 hasnt been merged with 376 because

you raised concerns about the combination of Route 376 with Route 375, particularly from
residents in Gordon Park in relation to:
• a perceived increase in travel time to the city on Route 375, due to the difference in the current
alignment of Route 376 and concerns around service reliability and on-time running due to
congestion through Fortitude Valley
• loss of 'express' service between Truro Street, Lutwyche and RBWH station.
Like in this case, clearly this is an example of where pax should have been changing to metro at RBWH but its not happening, we will still have a peak suburban route going through the inner northern busway.

But the thing that does my head in is the way they have had to paste in a couple of trial services to maintain coverage that still enter the CBD so its not really getting any efficiency.
Route 197 is a prime example.  A 7.5km loop for the sake of maintaining coverage on an 800m stretch of Stephens Rd.

If all metro is enabling is fairly conservative changes, then there is no point trying to tie network reform to metro imho

This is very disappointing, and entirely unsurprising.

Pimpama now has a better bus network than most of outer suburban Brisbane.

Remember this is a step change. There clearly is a high level of ' change risk aversion ' in both BCC and Translink which follows from the 2013 failure. Change is going to more incremental, with an easier sell. I guess they don't want the knitting ladies to re-appear! 🧶🧶🧶🧶

Photos in the blog post... surprised at how quickly they must have knit this together.

QuoteAn Annerley resident sent me these photos today.

It seems the local Annerley bus stop has been 'yarn bombed' to raise awareness of the opportunity for local residents who may be affected by the SEQ Bus network review and the discontinuation of the 121 and 116 bus routes to have their voice heard.

Yarn bombing is often used throughout the world as a direct action protest activity.

Annerley bus stop 'yarn bombed' to raise awareness of the 121 and 116 bus routes
https://www.elissa.info/2013/03/annerley-bus-stop-yarn-bombed-to-raise-awareness-of-the-121-and-116-bus-routes/

OMG, scare campaign has already started...

QuoteLabor seizes on cuts to suburban routes in bus network shake-up
By Rosanna Ryan

The Labor opposition in Brisbane City Council has criticised plans to shake up the city's bus network, arguing that the announcement "leaves many more questions than answers".

The council released its long-awaited plan today, promising changes to ease bottlenecks and reduce congestion, and take Brisbane "from public transport to mass transit".

But Labor's leader in council Jared Cassidy said the bottom line was that suburban routes will be cut.

Link: https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-news-live-amnesty-slams-premier-over-adult-crime-adult-time-policy-20241028-p5klx9.html#p57rsm

 

Hey, has anyone noticed in the document and on the Interactive Map that KGS is referred to as "City Hall/King George Square Station"?

Quote from: nathandavid88 on October 29, 2024, 12:19:56 PMHey, has anyone noticed in the document and on the Interactive Map that KGS is referred to as "City Hall/King George Square Station"?

Might as well call SEQ Network the Schinner Regional Network.  he runs it.

Brisbanetimes --> Five new Brisbane bus routes, changes to dozens more in network shake-up $

QuoteBuses could be more frequent, more reliable, less crowded and come closer to home – though a trip to the city might involve transferring at the closest busway stop – under a plan released by Brisbane City Council on Tuesday.

Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner said the long-awaited changes to bus routes would ease bottlenecks and reduce congestion, and would take Brisbane "from public transport to mass transit".

After hearing from passengers and crunching data on customer patronage and popular travel patterns, 12 routes have been redesigned to end at metro and busway stations, and others redesigned based on community feedback. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1851091761822863539

Is there a time frame for this to launch? Are they waiting for the Metro 1 and 2 routes? These changes don't appear related to metro.

Quote from: SilverChased on October 29, 2024, 13:03:23 PMIs there a time frame for this to launch? Are they waiting for the Metro 1 and 2 routes? These changes don't appear related to metro.

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/five-new-brisbane-bus-routes-changes-to-dozens-more-as-network-changes-revealed-20241028-p5km0l.html

" ... No date has yet been set, but Schrinner said the council hoped to meet with the Crisafulli government's new transport minister to discuss timing. ... ".

The BNBN will take effect the day M1 & M2 commence.

Couriermail --> Brisbane bus timetables undergo changes to remove some services $

QuoteA major change to Brisbane's bus services has seen some routes being split up, while others have been removed altogether, in a move claimed to produce faster travel times and deliver more services.

A council review into the current bus network could see faster travel times and more services across Brisbane.

The Brisbane Bus Network Review incorporated customer patronage data, popular travel patterns and extensive community consultation to help deliver a major boost to the network.

Designed to improve traffic congestion and ease bottlenecks, five new routes would be added to the bus network and another twelve routes redesigned to end at metro and busway stations.

The review found 85 per cent of routes would be faster or similar during peak periods and would mean an extra 160,000 services a year.

To help reduce congestion in the city and specifically, the cultural centre, fewer buses would travel over the Victoria Bridge. ...

Quote from: GonzoFonzie on October 29, 2024, 00:47:58 AMBus Network Guide: https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2024-10/20241028-Brisbanes-New-Bus-Network-guide.pdf

Can anyone verify that the 301, 306, 322, 330, and 385 will no longer go to and terminate at The Cultural Centre, but at the Queen Street Busway Station?

Other than on page 25, there is no direct references to these routes, and they are not part of the southside.

I'm not sure what's unclear about the statement on p.25, but yes, these routes will now terminate in the CBD, not at Cultural Centre.

I've just looked at the network reform for my area, and I cannot believe how backwards they are going.
They are not reforming any of the low performing routes (the 382, 383, 362).  They are however completeing screwing over the area by having the 385 terminate at queen street.
But I cannot fathom how any planner has come to the conclusion the 61 should service queen street bus station in the northern direction, yet use king george square in the southbound direction.

For me there is a significant backward step for public transport with this reform and nobody in the inner north west will benefit from this.

From what i've looked at, this entire network review is the bend over backwards for the southside of brisbane, at the expense of the north

The northside of brisbane is getting seriously shafted by the metro introduction.

To think they wanted the 61 to run on George St and Roma St instead of in the busway, because a few people didn't want to walk to the nearest busway station.

Convention would be to put both inbound and outbound services at the same location, however this is baffling, as the 61, 222 and 385 all stop at Roma St Station.

Since this network reform guide is full of omissions of all services impacted, they lazily used the online guide and expect people to dig around. It doesn't mention in the network reform guide that the 61, 222, 333, 444 along with the 66 and 111 would use the new Adelaide St tunnel. We have to click on a shovel icon on the online map to find this out. 

If so, this contradicts the proposed changes on the 61, 222, 333, 444.
Will the 61 use Queen St tunnel to go northside stopping at Queen St Busway Station, but use the Adelaide St tunnel to go southside stopping at King George Square?
Will the 222, with no changes, currently using Queen St tunnel, going to use the Adelaide St tunnel for both directions?
Will the 333, which will extend to Woolloongabba, and currently using Queen St tunnel, use the the Adelaide St tunnel for both directions?
Will the 444 cease running along George Street for outbound travel, currently using Queen St tunnel inbound, use the Adelaide St tunnel and busway for both directions?

Quote from: tazzer9 on November 02, 2024, 09:57:23 AMbackwards for the southside of brisbane, at the expense of the north

The northside of brisbane is getting seriously shafted by the metro introduction.

My understanding is that this was a southside rejig for metro. Northside review is likely at a different date.

Quote from: SilverChased on November 02, 2024, 16:20:21 PMMy understanding is that this was a southside rejig for metro. Northside review is likely at a different date.

Yep. "Brisbane's New Bus Network" is from the Brisbane Metro branding playbook - it's a review of the southside, or even more specifically, southside services that in some way touch the busway.

Quote from: tazzer9 on November 02, 2024, 09:57:23 AMBut I cannot fathom how any planner has come to the conclusion the 61 should service queen street bus station in the northern direction, yet use king george square in the southbound direction.

I don't remember if it was explicitly stated or I'm just putting two and two together, but I think there was some initial goal of having Queen Street and King George Square service different sides of the city.

This is of course ridiculous because the capacity of KGS is not that high.

Even if it was feasible, saying the 61 hops from one 'sector' to the other because it's a cross-town service is silly.

Quote from: GonzoFonzie on November 02, 2024, 12:49:32 PMTo think they wanted the 61 to run on George St and Roma St instead of in the busway, because a few people didn't want to walk to the nearest busway station.

Honestly, if they put in high quality and highly visible stops, that would be a better solution than what they're proposing now.

The Gliders don't exist to tag team with suburban buses. Legibility should be paramount and the 61's acrobatics on the southside are already indecipherable, we don't need more of the same in the city. Just pick one road, busway or otherwise, and put it there.

The way it was explained at a consultation session was to have a common stop location. Eg if heading NB, the 385 and 61 would have a common stop, and likewise the 222 and 61 would have a common stop southbound.

Personally i would have just done this all in KGS instead of the convoluted mess the are proposing.

Quote from: AnonymouslyBad on November 17, 2024, 22:43:31 PMI don't remember if it was explicitly stated or I'm just putting two and two together, but I think there was some initial goal of having Queen Street and King George Square service different sides of the city.

The proper 2013 review made this clear. Queen Street for southeast busway services, King George Square for northern busway, Ann Street for Coronation Drive, and I think Adelaide Street was for services via The Valley or West End.

I may have some of the specifics wrong, but it was pretty well thought through...and then the council smashed it up.

Quote from: Gazza on November 18, 2024, 08:55:00 AMThe way it was explained at a consultation session was to have a common stop location. Eg if heading NB, the 385 and 61 would have a common stop, and likewise the 222 and 61 would have a common stop southbound.

The 61, 222, 385 all have common stops at Roma Street station.

The 222 and 61 mirror each other from the Cultural Centre to Mater Hill. With the 3XX services no longer terminating at Cultural Centre, the 61 should remain at QSBS for both directions, as a transfer point for those 3XX's, and 1XX's buses. The 61 should continue to bypass King George Square - because everything stops at Roma Street.

I assumed that all QSBS services would use Adelaide Street tunnel to go southside via Victoria Bridge, bypassing the intersection where the Queen Street tunnel is. This doesn't seem to be the case.

is it possible to have buses service QSBS in both directions.
Also, why cant you have buses stop at both Roma St and KGS?

Quote from: Gazza on November 18, 2024, 16:08:34 PMis it possible to have buses service QSBS in both directions.
Also, why cant you have buses stop at both Roma St and KGS?

I was using the 385 as the example on why it doesn't need it to stop at KGS from QSBS, as it is redundant for it to do so due to the proximity of both stations.

Also, because the planners at BCC and TMR designed it so certain services bypass KGS thanks to the new electric bendy boi's taking up platform space there.

We won't know the final changes to the bus network for 6 months.

Quote from: OzGamer on November 18, 2024, 10:34:35 AMThe proper 2013 review made this clear. Queen Street for southeast busway services, King George Square for northern busway, Ann Street for Coronation Drive, and I think Adelaide Street was for services via The Valley or West End.

This was one of the few genuine problems with the 2013 review. As far as I know the initial BCC plan was to recycle such a QSBS/KGSBS separation, and maybe that still is their plan, I can't figure it out as the CBD is very light on detail.
It isn't workable because KGSBS can't handle that many buses. It was essentially designed as a flagship stop for flagship routes (in contrast to the "complex" but high capacity QSBS). There's a lot of ways to make it more legible, but pumping the entire northside through isn't one of them.

Quote from: Gazza on November 18, 2024, 08:55:00 AMThe way it was explained at a consultation session was to have a common stop location. Eg if heading NB, the 385 and 61 would have a common stop, and likewise the 222 and 61 would have a common stop southbound.

Yeah, that's what they're doing. But it means BCC is seeing their own "Maroon Glider" as little more than short runs of the 222/385. And that's silly.
I don't think Glider stops should be shared with anything - their purpose is to be separate to the mess.

Quote from: GonzoFonzie on November 18, 2024, 22:04:57 PM

Quote from: Gazza on November 18, 2024, 16:08:34 PMis it possible to have buses service QSBS in both directions.
Also, why cant you have buses stop at both Roma St and KGS?

I was using the 385 as the example on why it doesn't need it to stop at KGS from QSBS, as it is redundant for it to do so due to the proximity of both stations.

Personally i disagree, they are a 700m walk apart (If you measure it)  which is more or less on par with the spacing between major stations in CBDs elsewhere.

...Roma St is too far removed from places people want to go like the Queen St Mall, and you need both stops, Roma St for interchange with rail, and KGS for interchange with Adelaide St services eg the 199 and Glider.

Quote from: AnonymouslyBad on November 19, 2024, 23:23:49 PMThis was one of the few genuine problems with the 2013 review. As far as I know the initial BCC plan was to recycle such a QSBS/KGSBS separation, and maybe that still is their plan, I can't figure it out as the CBD is very light on detail.
It isn't workable because KGSBS can't handle that many buses. It was essentially designed as a flagship stop for flagship routes (in contrast to the "complex" but high capacity QSBS). There's a lot of ways to make it more legible, but pumping the entire northside through isn't one of them.

It was never intended to put all of the northside buses through, just the ones that went via the Inner Northern Busway. There still would have been northside buses that went from other city streets. This is from memory. But the idea was that most people who wanted to get to a location that was served by multiple buses could go to a single stop to wait rather than guessing which one would come first.

Perhaps there needs to be a pragmatic view. Have common stop locations to provide a good frequency on the core section, but once you have more than about 3 or 4 overlapping routes and you're hitting 5 min combined frequency then that's enough and you can provide another bundle elsewhere from another departure point.

Has anyone here done any exercises on how you'd group routes in an ideal world?

Quote from: Gazza on November 20, 2024, 10:47:53 AM...Roma St is too far removed from places people want to go like the Queen St Mall, and you need both stops, Roma St for interchange with rail, and KGS for interchange with Adelaide St services eg the 199 and Glider

That's why all roads and rail lead to Roma. 

Its not far to walk from QSBS to Adelaide Street via the Queen Street Mall. Otherwise get off at Roma Street and wait for a bus that stops at King George.

Embrace active travel and transferring, not one seat journeys, and inefficient stops.

Only a few buses will stop at King George busway, the rest will bypass it.
Only a few buses will stop at Queen Street busway. the rest will bypass it.

The 61 will be attempting to service both stops, but only inbound at one of them and outbound at the other