RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Initial Cost Estimation of BRT Conversion of the Doomben Line 
(Eagle Junction to say Racecourse Rd/Kingsford Smith Drive)

Benchmark: North-West T-Way NSW
Unit Cost: $36.3 million/km ($2023)
Corridor Length: 4 km (approx.)
Costing Source: Australian National Construction Review

Using the North-West T-way as a benchmark, the 4 km section from Eagle Junction to Racecourse Rd/KSD would be about ~ $150 million. Possibly a lot less as the corridor is mostly there already. This figure does not include bus lanes on KSD.

That would get you high-frequency bus service every 5-6 min in the off-peak, and all weekend, late at night. Ordinary BCC buses could be used until dedicated Brisbane Metro BRT buses could be procured.

- A higher frequency of a BRT bus every 5-6 minutes all day would stimulate patronage more than a 15-minute Doomben train on the line
- A similar overall capacity to rail would be on offer 1,500 pphd, which could be scaled up or down as required.
- Single seat trip to the Valley and CBD via Kingsford Smith Drive (KSD)
- Likely lower operating cost over the life of the infrastructure (1 BCC bus driver versus 1 train driver + guard)

Funding
Given that we know that 20 new BUZ routes in BCC would be about $100 million per year to run (fix up the entire BCC bus network), and this project would be a one-off cost of say $150-$200 million to be generous, the whole thing could be funded by just rolling back 50c fares, which cost $300 million/year.

No new funding would be required to do both fixing up the BCC bus network AND this project if the budget for the 50c fares initiative were simply repurposed.

Notes

Capacity
500 pax train x 4 trains/hr = 2,000 pphd
1000 pax train x 4 trains/hr = 4,000 pphd
150 pax bus x 10 BRT vehicles/hr = 1,500 pphd (can scale up or down, such as during event days).

BUZ Routes
20 new BUZ routes x $5 million/year = $100 million p.a.

Inflation adjustment: RBA Inflation Calculator

^ Note:  RAIL Back On Track does not support this nonsense, it is an individual members point of view.

Agree

We are Rail Back on Track

not

We are happy with incremental improvements whilst going backwards as a mode share %

Quote from: ozbob on September 21, 2024, 07:27:57 AM^ Note:  RAIL Back On Track does not support this nonsense, it is an individual members point of view.

It's even more of a joke when that one individual can't even explain the most basic question of does the area even need a BRT in the first place let alone other basic infrastructure requirements/modifications or bcc saying metro buses won't be running revenue services with general traffic. Does Gympie road really need 24bph at 10-11pm? Does Hendra station require the same amount between 10-11pm when the existing services are already air parcels? Where are all these bus drivers going to come from? We already have bcc buses being cancelled due to drivers yet brt and buz routes are the rage. They must come from somewhere?

Oh and why does the 300 million figure keep getting brought up. That's state wide. Why does that 300 million have to be spent here? Why not improve the networks across the entire state. Why not buz magnetic island? Why not buy more buses and provide additional coverage/frequencies to other areas outside of seq? Here's something. Why not modify Brisbanes bus network before spending a stupid figure on converting a railway line to a busway? If you can't get decent patronage with cheaper fares and a more efficient network why does the network need more pointless infrastructure that could be better spent on providing extra coverage elsewhere?

I expect metro to be selective with the response and would still avoid answering questions as he has done consistently through out. Can't even go into detail about the eagle junction interchange or getting to racecourse road yet he knows it would cost $150 million.

Quote from: HTGWhy not modify Brisbanes bus network before spending a stupid figure on converting a railway line to a busway?

As per previous post, you can do both. We have not got yet to the $450 million that will also become available if the new Wooloongabba busway does not go ahead.

Quote from: MetroNo new funding would be required to do both fixing up the BCC bus network AND this project if the budget for the 50c fares initiative were simply repurposed.

Quote from: HTGwhy does the network need more pointless infrastructure that could be better spent on providing extra coverage elsewhere?

Members are quite happy to consider various infrastructure proposals for Doomben line upgrade consisting of DDA upgrades, ECTS, duplication, an overpass of KSD ($) and a new train station on an elevated viaduct at Hamilton Northshore within the next 30 years (or sooner).

These infrastructure proposals by others are well documented in this thread.

Many of the proposals by other members would require a budget of say hundreds of millions.

And now that it is established that we would be willing to consider spending that on an upgrade for at least the rail mode, we should also look at that budget spent on an alternative mode like LRT or BRT to compare.

In addition, these mode conversion proposals have been put out officially by BCC and the Queensland Government.

The image in their official joint media release very clear about what their intention is for Doomben line. The line in that image is not a train. It is not an image I made. So of course it is up for discussion as the concept of conversion is already openly and officially out there in the public domain and media.

Nothing has been officially put out. You have fallen for political spin once again. The airport and Doomben brt lines are there to inflate the idea of how big the brt network is and would be. BCC has a very strong history of doing this. So to does that state. It looks better on a map but is it viable or doable is another thing. Take BCC and the northern metro. You lapped that up like a lapdog but failed to acknowledge the part about it being dependent on the state building a busway there.

As it's meant to do you have once again fallen for the spin and then drawn up your own network idea based off that spin. Even your own spin fails to pass the pub test when you can even answer and choose to sidestep questions that critique it. Look how difficult it is for you to answer simple questions such as does the area warrant a brt or what's the interchange layout at eagle junction.

But the business case... screw that. You want a racecourse road brt. That's not on the map. At least answer how you intend to get a bus or BRT off the busway from Ascot station to Racecourse road. That's your idea. Not BCC. Stop being a lapdog pollie and step up.

Does Doomben need ETCS or DOO? No it doesn't. You and V9 are the ones that keep going on about that. DAA compliance is pretty straight forward and doesn't really cost that much for some mods. The entire line can be operated with 3 car sets. You could revert to old practices of running a 6 car set to Doomben and splitting it to form 2x3 car runs. Most issues have resulted from NGR running on the line/network. Post CRR NGR will be more selective in where it would be running. Mostly platform raising which can be done on the cheap as we have seen with the platform humps at stations. Does it need to be duplicated? Not really. Eagle Junction-Sandgate road is all the duplication required so trains can clear the subs.

Quote from: HTGNothing has been officially put out.

Disagree. It has been put in a joint media release on the official Queensland Government media release website. The names of the Premier, Treasurer and Transport Minister appear on it along with the BCC Lord Mayor, so it must have been approved by them officially before release.

I appreciate that does not mean it will happen or is a good idea, or will be supported by RBOT members, but I am responding to your exact point about "nothing has been officially put out".

Brisbane better connected: Plans for major Brisbane bus expansion unveiled
https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/101184

I appreciate that members may not like a competing bus mode proposal that would essentially spend a similar budget to a rail infrastructure upgrade of the Doomben line. However, I would just point out that a modal comparison is likely to be made anyway once such a proposal lands on TMR's desk.

How do we know this? Brisbane Metro was originally a rail-based metro, and then some comparisons were made, and it turned into a bus. Discouraging discussion about a bus mode infrastructure upgrade thus is not going to avoid them making that modal comparison. We already know that a bus mode alternative for the Doomben line is already on their mind, because the image in the official media release tells you that.

If members are concerned about modal conversion, it would be advisable to engage BCC and TMR and query them on it.

Update: See the little yellow star icon near Doomben station in the image. It is likely conversion has been considered and Doomben included because of its proximity to the Olympics Village being constructed at Hamilton Northshore.

Image: Official Image (BCC) in Official QLD Government Media Release with image showing Doomben line running bus services.

Lap it up lapdog. Lots of maps have been put out there before. How are the NCL realignments going? How are those bypass roads out west going? How are those bypass railway lines out west going? How's the Bowen Hills Highway going? How's the freight bypass to the south going? How's trouts road going? How's the Cunningham highway Amberley upgrade going? They are on maps.  Also note the (option) next to it.  You will always get this heading into elections. And you always fall for it.

Anyway, here we go again with selective answering. Still avoiding the questions. How will your concept brt go from ascot station to racecourse road? That's not on a BCC/State map. That's on your map.

Quote from: HTGLap it up #Metro. Lots of maps have been put out there before. How are the NCL realignments going? How are those bypass roads out west going? How are those bypass railway lines out west going? How's the Bowen Hills Highway going? How's the freight bypass to the south going? How's trouts road going? How's the Cunningham highway Amberley upgrade going? They are on maps.

Well HTG, you aren't denying that it has been officially put out by both BCC and the Queensland Government. It has been put in the public domain, and officially so. Thus the notion of conversion of the Doomben line to BRT is openly circulating in the media, the public, and also internally inside BCC's council offices and TMR. How could it not when you have the Premier, Transport Minister and Lord Mayor listed in the MR?

Your protests are not going to change or reverse that. It is already out there, and we might encounter it again in a more refined form after the election is complete. There is every possibility that BCC council officers are working on this right now. After all, they were quite happy to scope and cost rail options for the NWTC corridor, a corridor that they don't even own for a mode they don't even operate.

That, and members should be referred to by their proper handle.

You are making a lot of assumptions #Metro.
Might be time to give it a rest.

We still don't know what the Games infrastructure will be until the 100 day review is done post #qldvotes and made public. Until then we need to mark time.

I'm not protesting actually. To you it might seem like I am but I'm pointing out your constant gullibility of government spin, your concept flaws and blatant disregard to discuss any critiquing or acknowledging of it (you can't say how to get onto an elevated Sandgate road from the ground level, how to get onto racecourse road from an elevated level, basic eagle junction interchange layout, bus stop provisions/locations/spacing on racecourse road and apparently I am the one that has to provide all the reasons why not and the solutions to it), your lack of knowledge of the area (does the area even need or warrant 2 brt services), poor understanding of costs and political/community backlash of resuming potential 30+ properties of varying degrees in Clayfield, Hendra and Ascot at local, state and federal levels (it's all fine putting a line on a map and talk about option this or conversion that but then you start getting into the nitty gritty about substantial property resumptions to facilitate it. All of a sudden you went from a simple conversion of the railway corridor to 30-40 million in property resumptions in an area with very wealthy/influential people - including the racecourse - that can have local/state/federal political impacts. Remember this is an area that had all 3 levels of government coming out against a bikeway in the area. Its not everyday you have a local lnp councillor saying he's against a design his parties own transport planners came out with). All of which you are showcasing magnificently over and over again.

#Metro, how does a bus or brt in your concept get from a converted elevated busway between Ascot and Doomben at ascot station down onto racecourse road? Remember that's not BCC/State idea and it's not on their map that you posted. This is a #Metro idea so it deserves a #Metro answer

You might want to give it a rest HTG. And again refer to members by their proper handle. This is the second time this has been mentioned to you.

Everyone, let it go for now.  Part of my role as an administrator is make sure we are all very happy and enjoying the sunshine state, no matter how screwed up it all is.

 

Thread is locked for now. Enough!

I will consider unlocking in a few days.

Please use correct board names when referring to others.



Ascot
Photograph R Dow 18th November 2010