RAIL - Back On Track Forum

I've been having a think about this, and it should be achievable in a post-CRR with some pretty "low-hanging fruit" infrastructure improvements (and enough crew and rolling stock):

• Sandgate-Shorncliffe duplication.
• Clayfield-Hendra duplication
• (maybe) reopening Ascot P2 (yes, I'm aware there's some issues with this that would need to be worked around)

Run

8 tph Shorncliffe to Springfield Central
4 tph Doomben to Corinda
4 tph Airport to Ipswich

We now have 16 tph (every 3.75 minutes) from Eagle Junction to Corinda via Central.

True Metro like frequency and capacity on one of the inner cores of our network.

Ipswich people probably won't like lack of expresses, though. Not sure how to fix that. I can't see EJ terminators being a viable option.

No point in doing anything to Ascot for operations. It's just a basket case having to deal with DAA, heritage and the racecourse. Spend the money and resources elsewhere with a better return. Upgrade that section when you actually need to. Personally I wouldn't even upgrade Hendra to dual platforms. Just have the duplication ending before the platform.

I can give some perspective on the Shorncliffe line, which I live on. When I need to catch a train in to the city, I'll often drive to Geebung, Virginia or even Northgate to access the more frequent and express trains on the Redcliffe line. I can easily save up to half an hour by driving to a train station that is further away, which is honestly a bit nuts.

If I need to get to the south side for work (I go to Eight Mile Plains), it is far quicker for me to drive to Chermside and catch the 77. I'm not sure what the improvements would be post-CRR.

I don't think I'm alone in this regard and the lack of express and frequent trains likely results in under-utilisation. Does your plan for 8tph on Shorncliffe to Springfield include any express (to Sandgate) trains?

Extending the Northgate trains to Shorncliffe for a 7.5min peak headway (or better) would be a better solution than adding express trains.

Even now, not sure why we can't just terminate some peak trains at Sandgate if needed given present track limitations to Shorncliffe.  Vast majority of people who need Shorncliffe trains are not going all the way to the terminus, and it is virtually just around the corner anyway (1.2km or so).  Surely there is some sort of crew accommodation at Sandgate, or it could be delivered if not there now.

Quote from: SurfRail on September 09, 2024, 14:51:45 PMExtending the Northgate trains to Shorncliffe for a 7.5min peak  headway (or better) would be a better solution than adding express trains.

Even now, not sure why we can't just terminate some peak trains at Sandgate if needed given present track limitations to Shorncliffe.  Vast majority of people who need Shorncliffe trains are not going all the way to the terminus, and it is virtually just around the corner anyway (1.2km or so).  Surely there is some sort of crew accommodation at Sandgate, or it could be delivered if not there now.

You would need to build a crossover south of Sandgate as AFAIK there isn't one there right now. Aside from that though, I agree that Sandgate terminators would be a great way around the Shorncliffe single track. Just terminate every second train at Sandgate for 8tph

I mean it would be better to duplicate, but a single turnout between Deagon and Sandgate should be doable and cheaper than 1km or so of more track and potentially a second platform at Shorncliffe.

Is there anything preventing an immediate turnback at Shorncliffe, with a hold at Sandgate until a slot opens?

Quote from: SurfRail on September 09, 2024, 21:46:15 PMI mean it would be better to duplicate, but a single turnout between Deagon and Sandgate should be doable and cheaper than 1km or so of more track and potentially a second platform at Shorncliffe.

There was a  crossover that was UP from Sandgate that was removed a number of years ago now, probably needs to be restored to handle peak turnbacks at Sandgate.  I have made representations to Queensland Rail about this, but never seem to get anywhere.

See Shorncliffe duplication & Station thread here as well > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=13081.0

Would be interesting to compare the cost of a crossover west of Sandgate to a simple second platform and second track at Shorncliffe. IMO it would be preferable to have all trains go all the way rather than have two alternating patterns.

Quote from: SurfRail on September 09, 2024, 14:51:45 PMExtending the Northgate trains to Shorncliffe for a 7.5min peak headway (or better) would be a better solution than adding express trains.

Even if it was just express after Northgate, it would help a lot with the speed. Right now all the Redcliffe trains run express after Northgate and none of the Shorncliffe trains. I am not sure why there can't be a split.

Looking at journey times, the express Caboolture and Redcliffe lines are 14 minutes Northgate<->Central and the Shorncliffe line is 22 minutes. Combined with the lower frequency, it makes it more appealing to drive across to the other line.

^ Because if you have express and all stations trains sharing the same track, it reduces the capacity available compared to having only one or the other.  This is the problem on the Beenleigh and Gold Coast corridor, and other sections of the network that don't have fully quadruplicated track for trains to overtake without constraint.

Redcliffe trains run express after Northgate because they follow exactly the same stopping pattern as Caboolture and Sunshine Coast trains, so there is no situation where an express runs up the backside of an all stations service on the western track pair.  This is also the reason why Airport trains no longer run express through Albion and Wooloowin.

There is no reason for a line as short as the Shorncliffe line to have expresses.  Far better to reduce the average wait time for people showing up to a station by running trains more often.  The time saved in not stopping at a few select stations is pretty minimal anyway.

According to the timetable, it's 19 minutes all stations Northgate to Central.
Agreed that Shorncliffe has no need for express services. Its just not that far out to warrant them, especially for the downsides of much lower track capacity and only actually saving 4-5min (I think it's usually 1min saved per station skipped, likely an extra minute in there for all stops due to congration at Bowen Hills with all the trains arriving so close together).
Upping the frequency is a much better solution for the Shorncliffe line

Quote from: JimmyP on September 10, 2024, 15:51:25 PMAccording to the timetable, it's 19 minutes all stations Northgate to Central.

It must seem like I'm exaggerating then When I looked in the morning, it said 22 minutes for Shorncliffe inbound, 14 minutes for Redcliffe inbound and 13 minutes for Gympie inbound. It differs by time of day. I often look at this as it's a commute and unfortunately the difference is often more pronounced in practice.

I am looking right now and it says 21 minutes for Shorncliffe inbound and 14 minutes for Redcliffe inbound. For the outbound, which is more realistic at this time of day (5:16pm), Redcliffe is 13 minutes and Shorncliffe is 22 minutes.

Just run all trains express through Bindha.

It has been pretty nice having all these stations being renovated.

Can I just say, 13 minutes from Northgate to the City is amazing, with trains running every 6 minutes in peak. Definitely no complaining there. It's just not on my line

The solution for "expresses on the Shorncliffe line" is for you to change trains at Northgate. Hop off the Shorncliffe line train and get on a Redcliffe/Caboolture one (or vice versa if you're heading out of the city). I'm assuming that with existing frequencies, the transfer penalty is not worth it.

This is why increased frequencies (ideally on both lines) would help. In an ideal world you'd hop off the all stopper and straight onto the express. Even better if it was a cross-platform transfer, but Northgate isn't configured for that due to the flat junction

Petrie on the other hand IS configured for that and I believe is actually worth a fair time saving. If you're coming from Kippa Ring, get off at Petrie, and can hop on an express Ex-Cabo train you would shave off a huge chunk of time not stopping between Petrie-Northgate

Quote from: timh on September 10, 2024, 18:23:16 PMThe solution for "expresses on the Shorncliffe line" is for you to change trains at Northgate. Hop off the Shorncliffe line train and get on a Redcliffe/Caboolture one (or vice versa if you're heading out of the city). I'm assuming that with existing frequencies, the transfer penalty is not worth it.

Yes, you're right and I do this sometimes but it can be slightly unpredictable due to delays on either line. I've found it more consistent to drive to the Redcliffe line. Frequencies would likely solve that issue as you mention.

Quote from: timh on September 10, 2024, 18:23:16 PMEven better if it was a cross-platform transfer, but Northgate isn't configured for that due to the flat junction

Are there stations where it is cross-platform transfer? Central, Fortitude Valley, Bowen Hills, Eagle Junction and Northgate seem to have it on the next block, which requires two flights of stairs.
Side note: Busways here do this too. Two platforms separated by giant staircases/lifts with the road in the middle. I always wondered why they can't have the platforms in the centre instead like in other cities.

It wasn't my intention to derail the topic Sorry. Was just trying to clarify whether they would be all-station trains in this plan.

Just a reminder the track layout plays a massive part on the times. For example if you use Eagle Junction-Central the subs arrive at central approx the same time/one minute slower even though one train had express running.

Inbound the subs don't have to slow down for junctions while the mains heavily drop their speed as a result. That changes when you travel between Fortitude Valley-Central as the subs have a slower track speed compared to the mains. If you want to get to Roma street this is also trickier at times as services on the mains are more likely to have 5+ minute dwells (including in peak hours).

Reverse that outbound. Mains skyrocket past services on the subs as they dordle over the crossovers. The subs are also more likely to hit congestion at Eagle Junction due to the flat junction restrictions of Doomben and Airport services. Inbound has similar problems with the crossovers however because of these restrictions you are also more likely in peak hour to run express Eagle Junction-Bowen Hills as a result to maintain the city slot.

It's only 3 minutes difference inbound for all stoppers vs expresses that bypass 4 stations but the cross overs let the express services down. Flip to outbound and that jumps to 6 minutes difference between the two lines. Add in the 1 minute difference for the subs vs mains from central and the time gap increases even more.

Quote from: SilverChased on September 10, 2024, 18:39:52 PMSide note: Busways here do this too. Two platforms separated by giant staircases/lifts with the road in the middle. I always wondered why they can't have the platforms in the centre instead like in other cities.

Because you would need doors on the right hand side of the bus. It's not impossible, and these exist overseas (although probably on the left in right-hand drive countries), but it's an added cost and level of complexity, safety concerns, etc.

There are not too many places in the busway network where this sort of platform interchange occurs all that frequently anyway. Griffith and Buranda are the only two that come to mind.

Quote from: SilverChased on September 10, 2024, 17:14:03 PM

Quote from: JimmyP on September 10, 2024, 15:51:25 PMAccording to the timetable, it's 19 minutes all stations Northgate to Central.

It must seem like I'm exaggerating then When I looked in the morning, it said 22 minutes for Shorncliffe inbound, 14 minutes for Redcliffe inbound and 13 minutes for Gympie inbound. It differs by time of day. I often look at this as it's a commute and unfortunately the difference is often more pronounced in practice.

I am looking right now and it says 21 minutes for Shorncliffe inbound and 14 minutes for Redcliffe inbound. For the outbound, which is more realistic at this time of day (5:16pm), Redcliffe is 13 minutes and Shorncliffe is 22 minutes.

I only looked at the inbound which may be the problem, going by HTG's explanation above where outbound has more of a delay on the suburban lines. Some of that might hopefully change after CRR with the reconfiguted Mayne area though hopefully!

You'll still have restricted signals to contend with due to the Eagle Junction junctions and other services (another example that slows down the outbound services). You could also argue Doomben is right up there when it comes to duplication and service frequency improvements. Not the entire line or even service increases on the Doomben line but enough that you can get a 6 car set clear of the subs to prevent Doomben bound trains stopping all northbound services on the subs and boost frequencies on other lines. If you ramp up any frequencies this will be your major delay point. ETCS will do jack sh%t if you have a Doomben bound service stopped at Eagle Junction station waiting for the citybound service to pop off the spur. This will also delay any other citybound services as the points will mostly be configured for the citybound Doomben service.

On the theme of delaying services due to crosses this also applies to the current inbound Northgate starters. They will be held at Toombul until the airport line trains clear the junction. They are intended to cross at roughly the same time but delays can hold it up even more. Priority will tend to go towards the airport services due to single line running, turn around times and the inbound crosses/city slots. This is another example where a late running Gold Coast-Airport service will turn into an Airport-Gold Coast exp International Airport/Eagle Junction-Bowen Hills. Most will retain the EJ transfer but some will run express to maintain the city slot if it's delayed enough - including if it's a Park Road terminator. This is where if it's late enough in peak hour it will also trip the Shorncliffe/Northgate-City services to run express.

CRR will resolve some issues but there are still a lot of other problems north of the project area. Another problem is the distance between signals and the flat junctions. ETCS won't be able to resolve some of those problems as you'll end up with a train blocking one of the junctions.

Quote from: timh on September 10, 2024, 19:11:25 PM

Quote from: SilverChased on September 10, 2024, 18:39:52 PMSide note: Busways here do this too. Two platforms separated by giant staircases/lifts with the road in the middle. I always wondered why they can't have the platforms in the centre instead like in other cities.

Because you would need doors on the right hand side of the bus. It's not impossible, and these exist overseas (although probably on the left in right-hand drive countries), but it's an added cost and level of complexity, safety concerns, etc.

There are not too many places in the busway network where this sort of platform interchange occurs all that frequently anyway. Griffith and Buranda are the only two that come to mind.

You could theoretically do it like they do in Sydney where buses cross over briefly on the "wrong" side of the road at stations. For example check out the "Barclay Road" station on the M2.

Quote from: timh on September 10, 2024, 19:11:25 PMThere are not too many places in the busway network where this sort of platform interchange occurs all that frequently anyway. Griffith and Buranda are the only two that come to mind.

Anywhere on the busway has potential to need this, but obviously not all are used as an interchange. As traditional interchanges like Chermside, Cannon Hill and Toombul they have a solution where the buses drive around a circle.
Although, I have found lots of places in the busway where this interchange is required.  Kedron Brook, Eight Mile Plains, for example.

None of those scenarios work really well for an in-line busway station though.  You want to minimise crossing conflicts to prevent delays and jams.

The O-Bahn stations in Adelaide are set up for this but with platforms on the outer edges to minimise conflicts with through services - they also are not as space constrained as our busway stations are.