RAIL - Back On Track Forum

QuoteRelax guys Metro already decided he supports nuclear, so expect to see only scholarly articles precisely aligning with the stated position.

You don't need to misrepresent other members on this forum. If you don't agree with something, you can just say that. Try it.

And I haven't 'supported' it... just established the fact that there is a problem with intermittency. Grattan Institute also refers to this, as "The winter problem" in their reports, for example.

And, as I have agreed with Jonno, there is more than one option to solve this (e.g. gas). It does not *have* to be nuclear. It just has to be dispatchable on demand during these 'dark lull' events.

Yes, I've provided references, high-quality ones peer-reviewed in the top international literature and written by university experts. Everyone should try it. That is a good thing.

As we are going down the list of things. Do we need nuclear power for ETCS?? If we put spent material into US weaponry can we then call them renewables?? How about dumping the waste outside of the environment??

I favour solar chimneys (updraft towers)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower

Quote from: #Metro on June 20, 2024, 22:58:52 PM

QuoteRelax guys Metro already decided he supports nuclear, so expect to see only scholarly articles precisely aligning with the stated position.

You don't need to misrepresent other members on this forum. If you don't agree with something, you can just say that. Try it.

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Yes, I've provided references, high-quality ones peer-reviewed in the top international literature and written by university experts. Everyone should try it. That is a good thing.

Yes, but with thousands of articles out there, its very easy to find only ones that match what you were already thinking.

Quote from: verbatim9 on June 20, 2024, 20:37:26 PMThe keyboard worriers as well as renewable energy lobbyists are really hitting hard on this announcement yesterday. Probably scared of funds and further investment being diverted. Unfortunately they can't see the logic nor the positives. Living in the 70s I guess, such is life..

You're right - I am scared of funds being diverted, because that is the entire aim of this policy. It is nothing more than a delaying tactic on the real energy transition to protect vested interests in coal and gas.

Quote from: GazzaYes, but with thousands of articles out there, its very easy to find only ones that match what you were already thinking.

You don't need to worry about curating what other members post.

Quote from: #Metro on June 20, 2024, 22:58:52 PMAnd I haven't 'supported' it... just established the fact that there is a problem with intermittency.

There is no "problem" with intermittency. It is a known characteristic of renewables which is predictable and can be designed for. You're still talking about unreliability, which is a different thing and not a characteristic of renewables.

QuoteGrattan Institute also refers to this, as "The winter problem" in their reports, for example.

That is not intermittency - it is a difference in seasonal production (which is also predictable and can be designed for). You're talking about two separate things - please try to understand the terms you're using.

QuoteAnd, as I have agreed with Jonno, there is more than one option to solve this (e.g. gas). It does not *have* to be nuclear. It just has to be dispatchable on demand during these 'dark lull' events.

And so batteries and pumped hydro also fit the bill here. Which is why they're in the plan that the nuclear boosters are trying to kill. Do you see how the serious people have already thought of and established solutions to these problems?

QuoteYes, I've provided references, high-quality ones peer-reviewed in the top international literature and written by university experts. Everyone should try it. That is a good thing.

No you haven't. You've said they exist but haven't shown any. Where are they?

Fark did I go a bit close to the bone or something metro? Why the response?

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My crackpot prediction for the future is that we may start seeing "hybrid" rechargeable appliances with small batteries, eg your fridge charges itself during the day from the sun, and  can run for a couple of days without power....An even more distributed model beyond community batteries.

Quote from: ozbob on June 21, 2024, 07:49:29 AMI favour solar chimneys (updraft towers)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower

They are pretty neat. A lot of these sort of technologies looked very promising but then the cost of solar PV, wind, and batteries fell so much that they just became cost-ineffective.

I remember when for years they were talking about that 1km high solar tower near Mildura. Never happened of course.

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My view is that PV /batteries will come out the winner? Why?
Because I see parallels to the way LCD/ Plasma screens and other silicon devices have rapidly fallen in price over my lifetime.

I remember walking into Harvey Norman and seeing a Plasma advertised for $9999, LCD was even more.

Now they are bigger, better quality, and under $1000.

I expect we could one day see a similar magnitude reduction in PV cells.

You can already get an offgrid system for $15k.

What happens when such a system falls to to $5k?

At that point you can practically "spam" solar panels and give yourself so much redundancy that it wont matter.

TLDR: Solar is already at that point where you can churn them out en masse and relativley standard tradies can install them.
Nuclear, or any other major power plant is still a massive engineering and civil job, and I think this is where the falling cost of renewables will make an impact.

Quote from: Gazza on June 21, 2024, 08:41:12 AMFark did I go a bit close to the bone or something metro? Why the response?

**********

My crackpot prediction for the future is that we may start seeing "hybrid" rechargeable appliances with small batteries, eg your fridge charges itself during the day from the sun, and  can run for a couple of days without power....An even more distributed model beyond community batteries.

That's far from happening. What's more realistically possible would be some type of government manufactured smart home. Solar panels on the roof to power the basics such as electric doors, lights and then when you need that little boost such as air conditioning in the summer time you can raise a T shaped device to connect to the grid. These houses can be built off site and it's as simple as installing a concrete slab with some iron rails on your property so you can just roll your new house into place. The Queensland government can subsidise these homes under the Queensland Home Manufacturing Program.....

Brisbanetimes --> Dutton's plan to build nuclear plants on former coal sites not as easy as it seems $

QuoteExperts have cast doubt on the central pillar of Peter Dutton's nuclear pitch to voters, saying it would take decades to fill in coal mine voids and make contaminated power station sites safe, during which time fragile and valuable transmission lines would be left to deteriorate.

Operators at several of the seven sites identified by the Coalition for nuclear plants already have well-advanced plans to transform their sites into renewable energy hubs with grid-scale batteries, hydrogen and solar once the coal runs out. ...

AFR ---> https://www.afr.com/policy/energy-and-climate/why-i-welcome-a-nuclear-power-station-in-my-backyard-20240620-p5jnah

QuoteWhy I welcome a nuclear power station in my backyard
I have never been against some solar and wind power. My message that we need a balanced mix of energy types is often lost in a debate where everyone is searching for an impossible silver bullet.

According to the Australian Energy Market Operator, Australia has installed, in per person terms, four times more solar and wind power than Europe or North America over the past four years.

The result has been the destruction of our once reliable grid and skyrocketing electricity prices for Australian businesses and households.

The intermittent energy supply provided by solar and wind energy is not suitable for the strict reliability requirements of AI. So Microsoft and Amazon are turning to nuclear energy to meet their needs.

^^As with anything hugely energy intensive, the intermittent issue applies to HSR as well.

Quote from: verbatim9 on June 21, 2024, 18:31:43 PMAFR ---> https://www.afr.com/policy/energy-and-climate/why-i-welcome-a-nuclear-power-station-in-my-backyard-20240620-p5jnah

QuoteWhy I welcome a nuclear power station in my backyard
I have never been against some solar and wind power. My message that we need a balanced mix of energy types is often lost in a debate where everyone is searching for an impossible silver bullet.

According to the Australian Energy Market Operator, Australia has installed, in per person terms, four times more solar and wind power than Europe or North America over the past four years.

The result has been the destruction of our once reliable grid and skyrocketing electricity prices for Australian businesses and households.
The intermittent energy supply provided by solar and wind energy is not suitable for the strict reliability requirements of AI. So Microsoft and Amazon are turning to nuclear energy to meet their needs.

I don't think an opinion piece from Matt Canavan is a credible source.

Couriermail --> Qld Opposition leader David Crisafulli ramps up resistance to Dutton's nuclear plan $

QuoteOpposition Leader David Crisafulli is refusing to bow to pressure from Queensland-based federal Coalition MPs to back Peter Dutton's controversial nuclear energy policy, brushing off suggestions the division could damage his chances at this year's state election.

Coalition MPs, including Matt Canavan and Colin Boyce, have called on Mr Crisafulli to support plans for a national nuclear energy strategy including converting Queensland's Tarong and Callide power stations into nuclear reactors. ...

Brisbanetimes --> 'Won't stop us': Dutton's nuclear threat to Queensland election winner $

QuoteFederal Opposition Leader Peter Dutton has ramped up his rhetoric over nuclear power, with an explicit vow to override state premiers' objections and steamroll through his energy pitch if elected.

"I will work respectfully and collaboratively with state premiers, but I don't answer to them," Dutton told fellow Liberals at the party's federal council event in Sydney on Saturday.

While talking about the need for a "mature conversation" about nuclear energy – despite questions about its cost and necessity – Dutton also reiterated that "Commonwealth laws override state laws".

"So support or opposition at a state level won't stop us rolling out our new energy system," he said. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1804495374507463080

Fark, maybe Labor should just say they support nuclear too, like they did with the subs.
Disarm the oppositions wedge, knowing full well they wont have to do the promise any time in the next 2 decades, because planning it will take as long as that hsr system we might finally get.

Ted O'Brien reveals further details on the Nuclear energy plan today, with multiple reactors adding extra capacity on selected sites. The sites earmarked for extra capacity will be determined by an independent nuclear authority. 👍

So?  Why bother promulgating the idea in the first place? 

This is just dumb, dumb politics.

Dutton holds Dickson on a margin of 1.7%, it would be justice indeed if he lost his own scalp.