RAIL - Back On Track Forum

The Queensland Sport and Athletics Centre (QSAC)

https://www.qsac.com.au

It is looking more probable the QSAC might be used for the 2032 Brisbane Games.

It is worthwhile to consider would could be done to improve public transport options for the venue.

Some suggestions from AndrewR

Quote from: andrewr on March 22, 2024, 00:22:00 AMYou could do a bit with temporary arrangements to QSAC largely as-is for a few weeks, and some of them could become permanent and even put into place sooner:

• Use Mains Road Park 'n' Ride as a bus terminus facility and use the multi story carpark for staff parking
• Dedicated buses from Darra (Ipswich/Springfield lines) to QSAC via dedicated bus lanes, especially along Granard/Riawena/Kessels
• Dedicated bus lanes down Mains Road and Beaudesert Road to Browns Plains, with Altandi Station as a train connection
• Perhaps even temporary dedicated bus lanes on the M3 to/from the city for extra capacity on normal bus services and close off the Klumpp Road exit and Mains Road motorway entrance to car traffic with detours
• Borrow some buses from Sydney as has been done before

The Netball stadium already causes traffic chaos when there's an event on and the police usually turn the traffic lights off and revert to hand signals... and that's not even an Olympic-sized event. Closing the area to general car traffic would be a necessary step IMO (people can expect disruption over the Olympics).

Griffith Mt Gravatt campus on the other side of the motorway is closing in the next few years, is already state owned, has sporting facilities, an Olympic swimming pool and accomodation facilities - with some (potentially a lot) of work it'd make a nice athlete's village/facility among others.

Have a proper, larger network of special event buses covering more of Brisbane for any given stadium, including QSAC (like Sydney Perth and Adelaide all do).

Buses are a horrible customer experience!!

How do you think rail alone is going to work at any of these places?

As we know, 1982 the Commonwealth Games, shuttle buses to and from Banoon and Sunnybank stations was the public transport provided.



This map shows the relationship for the stations to QSAC.

Quote from: SurfRail on March 22, 2024, 07:14:14 AMHow do you think rail alone is going to work at any of these places?

Massive difference (as Suncorp shows) between a stadium with Only Bus and a stadium with close rail/wallk to entertainment precinct + bus. I catch the bus to Suncorp often and it is not a great experience. Bouncy/jerky bus ride, indirect route into/from Stadium and crush/slow to board. Gabba shows us that bus only (rail is long walk) doesn't work well at all and lots drive n park. It is easier to walk home from Gabba than catch a bus.

Olympic Park in Sydney is a dream to get into and out of. Very enjoyable experience.

I have shown a location in Herston that has easy an access to existing rail and bus.

How long would it take to build a Grand Surburban Brisbane Express Rail Loop? 

The infrastructure

The "correct" solution is to build a busway spur, servicing both Griffith and QSAC. But that's expensive and it involves either:
a. permanently closing some roads (we can't have that!), or
b. building a new road through the forest. This is rightly controversial, though nobody would care if there were a carpark on the end.
I'm putting this idea straight in the never-gonna-happen file, unfortunately.

So let's talk the bare minimum.

Firstly:
Permanent bus lanes on Mains Road between the busway and Kessels Road.
Yes, it's going to reduce the number of general traffic lanes. I don't care

After that, there's two options:
1. Omeo St effectively becomes a bus station for QSAC.
2. Some kind of class B ROW continues down Kessels Road, with roadside platforms for QSAC and ideally QEII/Griffith. Use Griffith or close a couple of local streets for a turnaround facility during the Games.
Option 1 is better for Games access, but I actually favour option 2 since it provides more long-term benefit. Provided the appropriate pedestrian infrastructure is put in place it's not too bad.

The services

I'm going to be bold: there doesn't need to be a shuttle from everywhere to everywhere. The demand pattern for the Games is different to a football game or a concert and you can't fan buses out to places like Chermside to do 1 or 2 return trips. What's more important is an ultra high frequency, highly legible connection to the PT network overall.

I'd do something like this.

• QSAC to CBD. Route is self-explanatory, straight down the busway. 40bph - yes really.
• A cross-suburban service - Garden City-QSAC-Salisbury-Corinda. This one's a trek, but there's got to be something for the Ipswich line. Another option is to split this route in two, with the eastern route continuing to Springwood, but why not just put it on Kessels Road and keep it forever? 15bph during the games.
• QSAC to Altandi station via Mains Road. 20bph.
• QSAC to Griffith Mt Gravatt, as another connection for busway/"Metro" services. You could combine this route with the above one (at a higher frequency) but I like the flexibility of an ultra-short shuttle, it insulates it from anything else that might go wrong. 20bph.
• Shuttles direct to other southside venues if the schedule justifies it. I suspect most people who'd use these would have private transport though.

You could throw in the usual busway variations (UQ Lakes, Carindale), but I think there's a point where it gets messy. If you can justify running them every 5 minutes great.

Would it be appropriate to discuss potential new transport infrastructure for a new stadium elsewhere than Vic park?

For instance would improved transit to an Albion Park stadium look like?

Or perhaps a new stadium in Hamilton?

Improving rail or Metro to these locations would be an amazing legacy for the games.

^ this thread is specifically for QSAC.  Start another thread if you wish 

Brisbanetimes --> Stadium Metro option to be considered in search for Games legacy $

QuoteThe Queensland government will investigate a Griffith University proposal to run high-frequency Metro services into its Nathan campus and the nearby stadium that is set to be upgraded to host athletics at the 2032 Games.

The idea has come from Griffith University's Cities Research Institute, which specialises in urban planning problem-solving, as Premier Steven Miles defends his choice of the Queensland Sport and Athletics Centre as a key Games venue. ...

This is going to be so embarrassing.

Visitors expecting a real Metro and an Olympic Stadium will turn up to a busway station with 100 of buses arriving and a stadium that looks like a training facility. 

Brisbane the Home of Half Arse!!

QuoteBurke said using the Metro - capable of carrying 170 people at a time, with services every 15 minutes - would assist the 13,000 students at the campus, support the Games, and boost public transport options for the QEII Jubilee Hospital.

That is a whopping 680 people an hour!! 59 hours to empty stadium. 

The 170 is also over stated.

A Griffith University Cities Research Institute aiming for an electric BRT branch to their University! 



Even if this was in place for QSAC there will be still be a need for many shuttle buses from Banoon and perhaps Altandi railway stations.  Simply not enough of the electric bi-artics.

Olympic Park Railway Station in Sydney can move 50,000 people per hour

https://stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_274.pdf)

in 25-30 trains

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Trains_A_%26_B_sets

Using bi-articulate buses and assuming the 170 in "event mode" it would take 235 bi-artic bus loads to move 40,000 an hour.
U
They are not seriously thinking the Not-a-True-Metro will be adequate.  Knowing BCC that is exactly what they will do. 

Even if you accept the same ratio of stadium capacity to station capacity 2:1 in Sydney time of Olympics. Then QSAC needs to move 20,000 per hour.  Thats still 110 bi-articulate buses.
 

Nathan Campus certainly comes with its challenges:

• Buses coming from the busway to Nathan Campus (routes 135 and 155) turn left and wait at a set of lights with limited queuing capacity to enter University Road. Buses on University Road heading towards Klumpp Road back up behind cars during peak hour.
• During peak student attendance and peak hours, University Road regularly backs up, sometimes all the way up from the ring road to the motorway. There is free council parking along University Road which is popular among students, staff and cemetary visitors which slows down traffic. There is a great deal of rat-running through the campus to the motorway as motorists avoid congestion on Mains Road.
• On the southern end, Griffith Road is a windy and relatively steep track. It features "no cycling" signs but people still ride it because the alternative is a set of stairs. I couldn't see bi-articulated buses being used on Griffith Road in its current state at all.
• There is a great deal of remnant bushland and Mimosa Creek as Nathan campus was plonked in the middle of Toohey Forest in the 70s. If preserving remnant bushland is a priority it could add some extra difficulties in connecting things up to the busway.
• There is a reasonable walking distance between QSAC and Nathan campus, enough that could be inconvenient for the Olympics depending where you put the stop.

Between Nathan campus and cemetary leading up to QSAC there is a walking trail (full of potholes, might I add) that runs north-south along the fence line. On the southern end it veers east to QSAC. It looks like some trees were recently cleared along the fence line down to Kessels Road although there is no path as of yet. For some time I've thought that this could become a bikeway connecting the Veloway to the Salisbury and Sunnybank bikeways, but I'm yet to write to the state member.

Kessels Road is underutilised for public transport and a bit closer to the QSAC facilities than Mains Road, although it runs East-West and doesn't connect up to the busway so well.

If high frequency bi-articulated is the goal, perhaps looping around Toohey Rd, Orange Grove Road, Kessels Rd and Mains Road would work. It would cover a few schools, a hospital (QEII), QSAC and the Nissan Arena. Griffith Nathan would still be served by buses, have an additional nearby high-frequency bus route on Kessels Road, and receive shared path upgrades.

If one was serious about putting a BRT line in here's a route I'd propose:



Or a variant which covers more of Mt Gravatt and Logan Road:



Both routes would bring a great deal of coverage to areas currently underserved by PT, like Salisbury (west side away from the train line), Tarragindi and MacGregor Home etc. on Kessels Road (2nd option).

A dedicated BRT lane might be easy in some areas (just take the left lane from Kessels Road where there's already 3 car lanes in one direction) but might require some infrastructure built otherwise.

With the first option, wouldn't you thread it through the campus. The reason the 120 exists is because its too far to walk from Kessels Rd or Griffith Mt Gravatt station.

BCC Metro cannot move the people quick enough...let alone fit into the normal busway operations.

Quote from: Gazza on April 05, 2024, 12:04:06 PMWith the first option, wouldn't you thread it through the campus. The reason the 120 exists is because its too far to walk from Kessels Rd or Griffith Mt Gravatt station.

Agreed, any efforts to provide better bus services to Griffith Uni really need to go into the Campus itself. That is why there are several separate stops within the campus grounds - Griffith Road at Recreation Road right down near Kessels Road servicing the Nathan Sports Centre, the central campus stops which I think were in the Circuit but have been moved onto the Ring Road itself, and then University Road at the Cemetery near Klumpp Road, mainly for what used to be called the "Brisbane Innovation Park" - now Griffith Institute for Drug Discovery.

Quote from: andrewr on April 05, 2024, 11:52:54 AMOr a variant which covers more of Mt Gravatt and Logan Road:



Both routes would bring a great deal of coverage to areas currently underserved by PT, like Salisbury (west side away from the train line), Tarragindi and MacGregor Home etc. on Kessels Road (2nd option).

A dedicated BRT lane might be easy in some areas (just take the left lane from Kessels Road where there's already 3 car lanes in one direction) but might require some infrastructure built otherwise.

My main concern with this one would be using the already congested Garden City Bus Station, and especially if this was also in place as part of the Olympic transport plan. Griffith Uni Busway Station would be the better option IMO.

I know it might feel like we should be serving QSAC and Griffith Uni with the same solution but I'd suggest that:

* Outside of events, QSAC's demand is easily met by the existing Mains Rd stop.
* For events QSAC will need, and fill, plenty of dedicated buses from all over the city just as our other major stadia do.
* At no time is it worth making people walk from Griffith Uni to QSAC or vice versa. As andrewr points out, it's barely worth making people walk to and from Kessels Rd.

If the solution is worse or too troublesome than the problem you are trying to solve, then you have not identified the real problem!

Location... Location... Location. The venue is the problem!
Lack of mass-transit in the area is the problem!
The preferred transport mode is the problem!
Lack of viable alternatives is the problem!

I'd would have expected more coming from a Transport Planning Professor at Griffith given his background on mass-transit and light rail advocacy, praising a non-existent and non-proven platform the 'fake-metro' bus as the solution, only strengthens the case that the venue is the problem.

There is no legacy having QSAC there other than making a lot of private bus operators' wealthy and bulldozing part of a koala habitat for a temporary stadium that remains a white elephant. As for what should be of QSAC, re-habitat the land into a koala sanctuary open to the public. With some devious marketing, athletes should be flocking there to see and get photos with a koala. A bonus is people might even wonder into the Brisbane Transport Museum next to Nissan Arena.

If we are really desperate for buses we can make use of those relics that are parked there. I suspect they will be new additions to the museum collection come 2032. Possibilities are a Volgren B7R LNG variant, that purple CBD free-loop electric bus from Yutong, and a HESS LighTram bus (the one used in trials for two years with 0 passengers boarded).

All I can say is venues need to change and money needs to be spent.

Too hard to host the Athletics at Nathan... go to the original backup option of Carrara Stadium on the GC, or find another venue in Brisbane that had better transport and can leave a legacy.

Quote from: Gazza on April 05, 2024, 12:04:06 PMWith the first option, wouldn't you thread it through the campus. The reason the 120 exists is because its too far to walk from Kessels Rd or Griffith Mt Gravatt station.

Yes, absolutely. Basically I'm proposing that the metro doesn't directly serve Nathan campus at all. Continue running buses through Nathan campus. Metro users on either of my proposed routes would interchange near Troughton Road to the 120, 123, 125, 135 or 155 (or catch a direct bus instead of the metro).

Many existing bus routes don't serve Nathan campus particularly well. If you're coming from the northside it can take up to 3 buses (transfer at cultural centre, transfer at Griffith University Station on the busway) to get in, especially if you miss a bus connection like the 135 which runs half hourly in peak and hourly in non-peak. I think better bus connectivity to existing interchanges like Salisbury station, Altandi and/or the CBD could help but I haven't thought about it enough yet.

Quote from: nathandavid88 on April 05, 2024, 15:28:27 PMMy main concern with this one would be using the already congested Garden City Bus Station, and especially if this was also in place as part of the Olympic transport plan. Griffith Uni Busway Station would be the better option IMO.

I do agree with this too. In my mind the Metro would run along Kessels Road and left onto Logan Road. Space is pretty limited there and that intersection is a clusterf#ck as it combines cars destined for Garden City and the M3 with trucks destined for the Gateway Motorway/port of Brisbane. It's also far enough from the existing bus stop that it couldn't act as an interchange. You'd basically have to move the Garden City stop north 500m to make that work and it would be expensive.

Honestly the more I think about it the more challenging my option #2 would be...

I nearly forgot about the Greens' LRT plan for Mt Gravatt-Hamilton.

The LRT aspect raises more questions (e.g. stabling and infrastructure) but the general route could also be used for a BRT.

This plan terminates at Garden City instead of passing through Mount Gravatt via Logan Road.



A common theme is better connectivity on Kessels Road (the Mains Road side would also need temporary arrangements... and could use with some permanent improvements, which I touched on here).

Quote... Given the lack of direct public transport, access to QSAC Stadium during the Games could
only be facilitated by bus shuttles. In order to ensure a secure level of access for the Games
it would be necessary to construct permanent bus hubs capable of handling more than 380
bus trips for each ticketed session with capacity to site up to 150 buses at each. ...

Independent Review of Brisbane 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Venue Infrastructure
https://www.statedevelopment.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0029/87581/sport-venue-review-23.pdf page 27

I don't think that QSAC will end up being the athletics venue.  Even with a metro extension. There seems to be growing momentum to do something else.