RAIL - Back On Track Forum

I suppose that they could still build the line as far as the Keilor East station at least.

Melbourne Airport wanted underground, Vic Govt wanted above, would not be surprised if the Vic Gov then turned around and asked the Airport to fund the difference.

I think the business case also suggested that to meet 'right timing' of the project, it could be delayed.

^^ My own speculation

Herald Sun --> Melbourne Airport Rail Link important for Victoria MP Catherine King says $

QuoteInfrastructure Minister Catherine King has backed the $10bn Melbourne Airport Rail Link, as pressure to cut big projects to curb inflation grows.

The project was mothballed after it was controversially included in a review of the federal government's infrastructure investments.

Ms King on Monday revealed the long-awaited review had looked at 250 projects, but would not confirm how many it recommended cancelling amid $33bn in cost blowouts. ...

 

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/5bn-federal-funding-allocated-to-melbournes-airport-rail-link-after-longawaited-review/news-story/2c9a09a70c46026092000e00b8672231

Quote... The Albanese government has thrown the $10bn Airport Rail Link a lifeline, recommitting to pay for half the project following a long-awaited review of federal infrastructure funding.

The move puts pressure back on the Victorian government to get the massive public transport project back on track, after it was mothballed during the Commonwealth inquiry.

The review of the federal Government's $120bn infrastructure pipeline was ordered due to concerns that some projects being planned didn't stack up, and recommendations by an independent panel will be released on Thursday.

The panel recommends 82 of 274 projects in the 10-year pipeline, believed to include Geelong Fast Rail and a Frankston to Baxter rail link, be axed. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1724811062737055845?s=20

Victoria doesn't have the money. Either they will place the project on ice or use a third party (private) to put a toll on it. That would then make up the funding gap.

https://x.com/bridgerollo/status/1724918078914637885?s=20

Herald Sun --> Dispute heats up between the airport and the Allan and Albanese governments, which threatens to further delay the $10bn project $

QuoteMelbourne Airport is demanding more than $1bn compensation for Airport Rail Link works with the state government warning it won't be "held to ransom".

A bitter stoush is ramping up between the airport and the Allan and Albanese governments, which threatens to further delay the $10bn project.

Secret documents obtained by the Herald Sun reveal the airport wants more than four times the costs outlined in the project business case.

In the documents, the airport is claiming two lots of compensation for land devaluation – worth $370m – are needed after it has gained the new transport link.

A state government source said it was "unwilling to be held to ransom", with the airport also issuing 10,000 technical requirements. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1725249615778422826?s=20

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1725249976719245476?s=20

The Age --> Melbourne Airport pushes cheaper tunnel vision to overcome state's billion-dollar objection $

QuoteMelbourne Airport says an underground train station at Tullamarine could be cheaper to build than the Victorian government's sky rail plan for the long-awaited airport train.

As its dispute with the Allan government over the location of the station becomes a three-way stand-off that threatens to further delay the $13 billion project, the airport has pitched an alternative plan to the Commonwealth – re-deploy the massive tunnel boring machines being used on the city's other transport projects. ...

Herald Sun  --> Allan government takes fresh swipe at Melbourne Airport as tensions rise over rail link $

QuoteThe Allan government has taken a fresh whack at Melbourne Airport, warning its patience is being "very sorely tested" over the ongoing Airport Rail fight.

Treasurer Tim Pallas said the state government is not open to the airport's preference to build a proposed Airport Rail Link underground.

The state government has already undertaken planning and received designs for an above ground station.

"Not only can we not afford to (go underground), it would very substantially constrain the delivery of and require a redesign of the facility," Mr Pallas said.

"Perhaps more importantly, we are not in the business of gold plating a piece of infrastructure simply to serve the needs of the airport private concession owner.

"We have a design and we intend on delivering on that.

"We would call on the airport to accept that we are about to provide a very substantial improvement in terms of mobility and access to the airport and they should recognise that is a very substantial contribution from the state.

"We would expect them to now facilitate that being delivered."

Asked whether the cost of ongoing delays would make the project too expensive to build, Mr Pallas said: "Well if gets to a point where the government's patience is being very sorely tested.

"The more delay that occurs ... we will invariably see the delivery timeline for this project will be adversely affected," he said. ...

The Age --> Allan government spends $67 million to pause building Airport Rail link $

QuoteVictoria has spent at least $67 million to delay Melbourne's long-awaited rail link to Tullamarine, paying contractors for standing down until the state resolves its stalemate with the airport.

Melbourne Airport's owners want an underground station built near its terminal while the Victorian government wants to pursue an above-ground option, which it says would be significantly cheaper. The state has privately pushed to pause the $13 billion project indefinitely.

The project was first delayed when it was included in a Commonwealth review of infrastructure projects around the country but federal Transport Minister Catherine King ultimately ruled it should go ahead. ...

1. Build the line to Keillor East, just short of the Airport and open it. Run a bus off the end into the Airport.

2. Figure out the difference between the underground and above ground options and bill the Airport the difference. Put any cost escalation risk on the Airport.

You can already get the 902 snart bus from Broadmeadows station. I have done and it's not that far from there either.

As for the underground above ground debate, I would prefer underground as this is weather proof and can provide  better connections to all the terminals.


For argument sake -
Apparently, Brisbane's airport link was done above ground due to the soil type and the subsidence.

I believe that Tullamarine doesn't have this issue.

Quote from: #Metro on March 09, 2024, 12:05:38 PM1. Build the line to Keillor East, just short of the Airport and open it. Run a bus off the end into the Airport.

2. Figure out the difference between the underground and above ground options and bill the Airport the difference. Put any cost escalation risk on the Airport.

Getting to Keilor East still involves the giant flying junction at Sunshine, and a new bridge across the Maribyrnong river. Plus once you get to Keilor East you'd need to determine if you're going under or above ground for the rest of the way as that will determine what grade the Keilor East station is at. So still an extremely expensive operation to get to that point.

I have no problem with the cheaper above ground option at the airport. Tbh MEL's reasoning for the underground station is asking too much

The grade of Keilor East would have no bearing on the airport Timh.


Its 7km away from the airport, so it won't be transitioning to underground or elevated structure until much closer to the airport.

Delays = cost increases.  I would be surprised if this gets built to be honest!

Just build the part you are certain about and leave the part you are uncertain about for another day.

The residents of Keilor East will be very happy to get a new station open and people can start using it regardless of what Melbourne Airport is doing.

They will keep upgrading freeways without batting an eyelid in the meantime.

AAP --> Mediator picked to resolve Melbourne Airport rail spat

QuoteFormer Queensland transport department director-general Neil Scales has been saddled with the task of getting Melbourne's stalled airport rail link moving.

The Commonwealth has appointed Mr Scales to resolve a long-running stand-off between the Victorian government and Melbourne Airport over whether the airport railway station should be elevated or underground.

Mr Scales, a High-Speed Rail Authority board member and former director-general of Merseytravel in the UK, has begun the work and plans to visit the airport this week.

Federal Infrastructure Minister Catherine King in November flagged she would appoint an independent mediator to resolve the dispute after the mega project was spared the axe following a federal infrastructure review.

Melbourne Airport prefers the project's airport station to be built underground but the Victorian government is pushing for it to be elevated, arguing it would cost taxpayers $1 billion less, take two fewer years to build and cause less disruption. ...

Herald Sun --> $10b Airport Rail Link won't receive new funding in state budget $

QuoteThe $10 billion Airport Rail Link will get no new funding in the State Budget, as the Allan Government further mothballs the project and tries to rein in transport spending.

The long-awaited rail link, which has a $5bn commitment from both state and federal governments, stalled last year when former premier Daniel Andrews halted works amid a federal review of infrastructure spending.

A dispute over the location of a Tullamarine station has since broken out between the state and the airport, and has led to mediation by former director-general of the Queensland transport department, Neil Scales. ...

Quote from: Herald SunThe $10 billion Airport Rail Link will get no new funding in the State Budget, as the Allan Government further mothballs the project and tries to rein in transport spending.

Governments will not keep spending like they have in the past- large mega projects that don't run on time or on budget and then come in at 2x, which blocks other projects from going ahead because the government is still trying to pay off the existing projects.

Charging ahead with long wish lists of high cost low benefit or high cost slow benefit projects are not going to cut it going forward.

Both Melbourne and Sydney have shocking bus networks, this is a relatively easy fix that requires more service and reallocation of existing service, with very little new infrastructure required.

Quote from: #Metro on May 04, 2024, 10:59:54 AM

Quote from: Herald SunThe $10 billion Airport Rail Link will get no new funding in the State Budget, as the Allan Government further mothballs the project and tries to rein in transport spending.

Governments will not keep spending like they have in the past- large mega projects that don't run on time or on budget and then come in at 2x, which blocks other projects from going ahead because the government is still trying to pay off the existing projects.

Charging ahead with long wish lists of high cost low benefit or high cost slow benefit projects are not going to cut it going forward.

Both Melbourne and Sydney have shocking bus networks, this is a relatively easy fix that requires more service and reallocation of existing service, with very little new infrastructure required.

The issue is the cost to widen a highway or road is also going up significantly. It's a matter of priorities. The gov still has plenty of money to go around but they often prioritise the road network over the rail network. When the cuts need to happen it seems to be the PT projects first to go.

Victoria Budget

https://x.com/6NewsAU/status/1787685125284872603

Unsurprising - why bother committing funding to something where it hasn't even been agreed what will be built and where the cost of the different options varies by up to a billion or more even before contingencies?

Tell the airport where to stick it, and spend the money on things where the principal beneficiary isn't trying to bleed the State. 

(At least Scales-y will make some coin out of it.)

Time to spend some serious dollars on the tram network, and a few billion otherwise to be spent on airport rail would be a decent start.  Heaps of work to be done there.  They need at least 400 trams over the next decade and a bit to replace everything prior to the E class and maintain the same numbers.  There are approx 300 Zs, As and Bs which are not DDA compliant and should already have been pensioned off (the 100 G class trams on order only replaces the Zs), plus 100 Cs and Ds which are all going to be completely clapped out by then due to build quality issues and poor suitability for Melbourne's curves.  Even if they replace these 400 trams one for one, ignoring any heritage instances they decide to hang onto for the City Circle on top of the W class trams left, that only increases capacity and not frequency or route km.  Any extension to the network is going to need new trams even to keep pace with the current headways.  All of this also ignores the need to ramp up tram priority, dedicated rights of way, better priority signalling, DDA compliant stops etc.  All of this also ignores the bus network, and more pressing priorities for the rail network (eg eliminating more of the remaining single-track sections and LXs).

^ Agreed. It's astounding how slowly Melbourne is rolling out DDA compliance on the trams, and as for the buses.... I've tried catching buses in Melbourne, it's awful.

I have no sympathy for the airport, considering (afaik) they're not chipping in a cent for the rail link. Beggars can't be choosers

Herald Sun --> Treasurer Tim Pallas threatens to invest in Avalon if Airport Rail Link stoush continues $

QuoteThe boss of Avalon Airport says a rail link into Melbourne could be taking passengers within two years and put an end to the ongoing stoush about a train line from Melbourne Airport.

Avalon Airport chief executive Tony Brun said he welcomed renewed discussions about an Avalon Airport Rail proposal, after Treasurer Tim Pallas fired a warning shot to Melbourne Airport, demanding they end the Airport Rail stalemate or risk government investment going to Avalon Airport.

It was revealed in this week's state budget that the long-awaited $10bn Melbourne Airport Rail Link is set to be delayed by "at least four years" because of the ongoing bitter stoush with airport operators.

Melbourne Airport wants to build an underground station but the state government is pushing for a cheaper and quicker above-ground station.

Mr Pallas on Wednesday flagged that the government would look at investing in Avalon Airport near Geelong if Melbourne Airport was unwilling to resolve the long-running dispute. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1788254326349255027

HELL yeah. If you read the full article the treasurer really goes in on the administration at Tullamarine. Calling them things like private company wanting to embellish the value of their asset at the expense of the taxpayer.

Meanwhile, Avalon airport boss says he's willing to help pay for a rail link!! And a rail link to Avalon would be WAYYYY cheaper than Tullamarine. A simple branch off the Geelong line to an at grade station, along relatively flat greenfield land. Would need a few bridges to get over old Melbourne road and the M1 but nowhere near the engineering challenges required to get to Tullamarine

Sure it's nowhere near as important as getting rail to Tullamarine but boy does this make MEL administration look bad!

I think a branch to Avalon would be a bit suboptimal since you then hit that branching frequency issue, and the branch is pointing the wrong way for Geelong pax.

I would like to see a setup where the whole line is realigned via Avalon, so then all services can stop there.

Or you do it on the cheap Altona style - Little River to Avalon to Lara shuttle with a single Velo.

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1788707177114505496

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1792239266514510115

It's interesting that Melbourne Airport references offering $7b in the past for an underground station.

I think it's been rejected because rail is now so expensive (except Perth) that it won't be enough to do it.

The other thing is that an Airport will not put that sort of money down without making it back plus some.

It suggests that Melbourne Airport wants something in return, a toll access fee for rail passengers to the Airport as revenue.

An above ground station would be public, fully paid for by Vic Gov and with that scenario there is no leverage for Melbourne Airport to insert themselves or charge fees. With an underground station that is co-funded by the Airport, there is.

Otherwise, why would a commercial Airport operator give $7b away for free?

They want to toll PT access, and want the Vic government to agree to this is my guess. This would also explain neatly the Vic Gov refusal.

Quote from: #Metro on May 20, 2024, 07:45:40 AMIt's interesting that Melbourne Airport references offering $7b in the past for an underground station.

I think it's been rejected because rail is now so expensive (except Perth) that it won't be enough to do it.

The other thing is that an Airport will not put that sort of money down without making it back plus some.

It suggests that Melbourne Airport wants something in return, a toll access fee for rail passengers to the Airport as revenue.

An above ground station would be public, fully paid for by Vic Gov and with that scenario there is no leverage for Melbourne Airport to insert themselves or charge fees. With an underground station that is co-funded by the Airport, there is.

Otherwise, why would a commercial Airport operator give $7b away for free?

They want to toll PT access, and want the Vic government to agree to this is my guess. This would also explain neatly the Vic Gov refusal.

$7B is a massive amount to pay to get returns on station tolls. If we make an assumption of similar modeshare and fare to airtrain, you wouldn't turn a profit for a century (assuming the debt from $7B roughly equals out the inflation). I'm guessing they want far more in return than station tolls. Likely rent on the land given and a guarantee of return regardless of patronage.

Times like these I wish Dan Andrews really was a dictator and just stormed the airport with an army of CFMEU tradies to build it.

Airtrain Brisbane was $220m to build, and $900m for the Sydney one, and those both had fairly lengthy contract terms and quite high fares to be self funded and get a return.

What would the fare have to be for a $7000m line and how long would the contract be for?

It is looking increasingly unlikely that MEL Tullamarine will get a rail line anytime soon, if ever.

Looking back it is interesting to note the first mention of rail to the new planned Tullamarine Jetport (Jet Port), as it was referred to then, was in the early 1960s. Bumbling ever since ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1795265811055358004

I suspect Melbourne Airport wants to toll PT passengers.

This can only happen if they choose the underground option and create a situation where suddenly their capital is required.

By controlling both the fares for Airport train access and parking fees, a monopoly over access is created across essentially all access, and the prices can be varied to maximise return for the Airport.

If tolls are going to be used, the Vic govt would be better advised to administer itself to avoid the creation of an anti-competitive position where Airport users are squeezed.

The Age --> Airport Rail brawl coming to a head with mediator on track to deliver report $

QuoteA solution for the Melbourne Airport Rail standoff could be delivered within weeks despite the Victorian government and airport owners not meeting with mediators in the same room to hash out their differences over the $13 billion project.

Victorian Transport Infrastructure Minister Danny Pearson on Tuesday declared there was no guarantee a compromise would be reached before the 2026 election, even though the mediator's report is imminent.

Former Queensland transport department director-general Neil Scales, who was in April appointed by the federal government to mediate the dispute, has met with the airport once and met separately with Victorian government officials. ...

QuoteJun 4, 2024  #ABCNewsIndepth #ABCNewsAustralia
Imagine waiting and waiting for a train long promised that never comes. They know all about that in Melbourne, where an airport rail link due to depart for decades has been delayed – again. Here's 7.30's Norman Hermant.

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1798071938860142735