RAIL - Back On Track Forum

They are not building anything. This is an announcement to look like they are but they aren't.

We already know that BCC and Translink have negotiated or are in negotiations with Scentre Group in relation to the reconfiguration of the Bus station at Chermside.

Quote from: Jonno on February 18, 2024, 17:04:12 PMThey are not building anything. This is an announcement to look like they are but they aren't.

Proposed Timeline

Gympie Road tunnel construction starts mid to late 2025.
During the construction phase road modifications, new bus only tunnel sections, as well as the reconfiguration of the bus station would likely be also completed.
Completion Date late 2027. (Stage 1 to Chermside).

TMR have wanted to move the interchange to another location on the Northside of Westfield or go underground at the Hamilton Road intersection/resume the shopping complex to the south. The problem with the Chermside interchange is the size is limited (bendy buses aren't allowed to use the interchange), newer longer buses are having more difficulty accessing stops in peak hour (the 330/340/335 stop regularly blocks the buses from exiting as the 330/340/335 arrive at the same time) and buses have to use existing entrances and service roads which are already quite narrow and heavily congested. Outbound 340 has difficulty exiting the shopping complex as they need to cross 3 lanes of traffic straight away. They usually only make the exit when the traffic turning right out of Westfield get a green arrow. Most people driving avoid this move in peak as it's too slow but the 340 has no choice but to do this move. The existing exit is also at capacity with congestion quite heavy off peak let alone during peak hours. This can sometimes even mean that buses trying to get into the interchange via Hamilton road are delayed. Westfield have previously denied the interchange expanding by resuming the parking lot nearby. This has been one issue since 2010. You also have TMR also owns the road network. To repurposing the bus network, road mods and approvals on Gympie road and mediation works to Westfield with a small footprint aren't going to be cheap or easy when you compare it to a greenfield bridge project. And don't forget you need the state to also sign off on it.
 

For my two cents, at the moment, I find myself in support of the LNP's Metro expansion proposal more than anything else so far proposed, followed by the Greens' proposals. The ALP's brain-fart, network breaking half price buses proposal I would in no way support.

*I live outside of the Brisbane LGA, so I won't be voting for any of them myself.

Tracey needs to name routes. The other two parties have named either routes or corridors.


^ Ch7 called them buses 

I think there are a lot of people here reading a lot more in to the Metro announcement than what there actually is... They have announced they will build a depot, that's all. No more, no less. They specifically say it will enable the Metro buses to run on State Gov Busways and Transitways, so they'll build the depot then simply complain the State hasn't lived up to their side of the "bargain", even though the state hasn't publically agreed to anything other than the current peak hour only transit lanes on Gympie Rd. BCC being normal BCC.

Quote from: verbatim9 on February 18, 2024, 17:20:20 PM

Quote from: Jonno on February 18, 2024, 17:04:12 PMThey are not building anything. This is an announcement to look like they are but they aren't.

Proposed Timeline

Gympie Road tunnel construction starts mid to late 2025.
During the construction phase road modifications, new bus only tunnel sections, as well as the reconfiguration of the bus station would likely be also completed.
Completion Date late 2027. (Stage 1 to Chermside).

None of which have even been discussed and look at how the last busway next to a road tunnel ended!! This Depot plan is not a plan for a busway this is a sham!!

My two cents is that it's a cynical vote grab. There are much more pressing issues on the Northside than capacity down Gympie Rd. The greens proposal will actually make a genuine difference to all of Brisbane. It will actually make the network better. A bi-artic replacing the 333 (I struggle to see it going further until more infrastructure is delivered) will do bugger all when they haven't even been upgraded to artics yet.

It would be strange to build a depot on the Northside and then run no Brisbane Metro BRT services there.

One follows from the other.

And expansion has been foreshadowed for a while. Plus the council budget shows large funding increases in the forwards years.

The Northside network will have to be restructured, just like the other areas did with their mini bus review. This will release new service, just like it did with M1 and M2.

What BCC wants BCC generally gets so I think it's legit. Has a lot more credibility than Green Team's tram which has no identified depot.

They won't build it. That's the point. It's just a vote grab. They'll buy some land from the state so they can say we are promising on delivering a bus depot but we are waiting for the state to build a busway so we can use it. They'll keep blaming the state for not delivering infrastructure such as the busway and tunnel as a means not to do anything. For it to go ahead a lot of other infrastructure and modifications have to be done first.

Not being a bcc resident it's bluntly clear.

Don't see how it's any more real or unreal than the M1 and M2 which apparently will start later this year and required all sorts of modifications, which were or are being done.

And it's not BCCs fault the State didn't make good on completing its Northern and Eastern busway plans. They've been in office most of the time for the last 30 years.

QuoteHas a lot more credibility than Green Team's tram which has no identified depot.

The Greens Tram goes along Evans Rd Salisbury so if you were doing a tram you'd put the depot in the industrial area.

Team Schrinner and Team Quirk before them have had 19 years to keep Brisbane moving! All they have achieved is more people driving!  They really have no intention of changing this!!

^ believe they brought in most of the BUZ routes, citygliders, removed diesel buses, replaced them with 500 new buses, built two new bus depots, allowed KGS car park to be converted to a busway station, built the Eleanor Schonell bridge...

What new services did the Queensland Government bring in? Route P88? They have vacated this space, it seems.

QuoteWhat new services did the Queensland Government bring in? Route P88? They have vacated this space, it seems.

There was that publicised push in 2011/12  when Translink introduced "310,000 extra weekly seats on public transport"
This was around the time that the 180 and 120 got BUZed, as well as the 222 to support the opening of the Eastern Busway to Langlands Park, and likewise 340 and 300 to support the Northern Busway.
P88 was part of these changes.

But this was also when 15% fare hikes were introduced to pay for it all.

Quote from: #Metro on February 19, 2024, 08:49:51 AMDon't see how it's any more real or unreal than the M1 and M2 which apparently will start later this year and required all sorts of modifications, which were or are being done.

And it's not BCCs fault the State didn't make good on completing its Northern and Eastern busway plans. They've been in office most of the time for the last 30 years.

The M1 and M2 has the whole corridor in existence. It's completely different. One is retrofitting an existing Class A ROW and the other is putting a depot somewhere not even close to any existing ROW and expecting us to lap it up. For that depot to work, either the busses need to be approved for street running or the ROW will need to be completed all the way to Fitzgibbon. This is neither cheap nor quick. The Northern Transitway has taken 2+ years of construction just to get to Rode Road.

Quote from: RowBroThe M1 and M2 has the whole corridor in existence. It's completely different. One is retrofitting an existing Class A ROW and the other is putting a depot somewhere not even close to any existing ROW and expecting us to lap it up.

IIRC the vehicle is capable of running in Priority A, B or C. To get up to Mt Coot-tha it had to drive on local roads. Seemed to be fine.

Is there a ROW connecting the Eagle Farm depot where the vehicle currently is housed connecting the busways? I don't think there is. How does it get to and from the depot currently?

It's a bus after all.

Have they got temporary wide vehicle permits or speed restrictions on it?

Testing video, which shows performance in situations that mirror ordinary roads.

In the second video, it shows the vehicle arriving and departing Mt Coot-tha using Priority C roads.

In meetings which RBoT has had with the Metro team, they've told us the vehicle is approved for on-street running. I believe it's got some sort of exemption - presumably because you can trust TfB to vet roadway widths before running the vehicle on that road.

They said in the meeting that they didn't want to run it in Class C ROW, and preferably not B either, for service branding reasons.

(edit: members can refer to my notes from the thread about the meeting on 26th October 2022)

Irrespective of the ROW this is a low capacity solution on a high need corridor. It's not a game changer at all!

Perfect for cross town services in own bus lane where you are building demand.

Not where demand is already high and you want to make it even higher.

Quote from: Jonno on February 19, 2024, 12:46:56 PMlow capacity solution on a high need corridor.

Please remember that it isn't even running regular bendy buses at present!
(I agree that it should be thought of as a high need corridor.)

Sure it's 16+ bph off peak but that's still only about 1000 pphpd, that's two trains or a 9-minute metro frequently.

Eagle farm has some of the widest corridors in Brisbane because of the industrial access. Not to forget the plethora of road upgrades and lane widening projects along it. There is also a difference between on street running and route revenue running. As I said the Virginia and Eagle farm depot had lots of problems with new buses bottoming out and getting stuck on the skid blocks during detours/non route running and having wider turn radiuses for the sharper turns. And the metro buses sit lower to the ground then they do. So what happens to the metro buses when Gympie road floods at Aspley? Do they rat run and get stuck on the side streets blocking detour and all neighbourhood access with passengers onboard which IIRC 5 bcc buses did in 2015 (bcc simply cut all carseldine buses at the Aspley interchange and ran back to the depot before getting stuck in flood water in Geebung). Yes that's on the extreme side but cherry picking is what you like to do. You don't need flooding. It could be something like a car crash on Gympie road/Zillmere road.

Still remains there are lots of issues still that need to be addressed and saying someone else will fix and pay for it is not the correct answer.

https://x.com/bne_lordmayor/status/1759310290683089224?s=20

Quote from: HTGStill remains there are lots of issues still that need to be addressed and saying someone else will fix and pay for it is not the correct answer.

^ Well, put all of your objections in a concise itemised list and we can send them to BCC for their response in an Information Request this week.

Easily resolved.

Update: On reflection, we can all add to the list for this.

Quote from: #Metro on February 19, 2024, 14:05:13 PM

Quote from: HTGStill remains there are lots of issues still that need to be addressed and saying someone else will fix and pay for it is not the correct answer.

^ Well, put all of your objections in a concise itemised list and we can send them to BCC for their response in an Information Request this week.

Easily resolved.

Update: On reflection, we can all add to the list for this.

You're missing the point Metro.

Yes BCC *can* run the Metro buses on roads in mixed traffic.

The problem is they don't *want* to.

As Aldonius posted above this was directly said to us in in-person meetings with the Brisbane Metro team. The whole point of the "Metro" brand is Class A ROW.

As others have posted above, the commitment here is to a depot, and if you read carefully in all the LNP council propaganda, they are still relying heavily on the State gov to extend the busway to Carseldine for them to run Metro services on it.

Yes I agree that the State govt has done a hopeless job in constructing busway extensions, and I'm glad that council has been picking up the slack where they can. But this whole announcement of a depot is just sneaky vote grabbing and will just cause further rifts between state and council on transport policy.

Put it this way. Most people don't read the news as closely as we do. I know many people who don't understand that Cross River Rail and Brisbane Metro are two separate projects. I know many people who think that the Gabba rebuild has been announced as officially cancelled, despite it just being a rumour.

People will see the headline, not read it properly, and think "vote for LNP in council = Metro to Fitzgibbon will be built". Hell most people don't even understand the weird governance we have that council and state have two very different transport responsibilities, so they would just think it means the council is announcing they'll build a busway.

This whole announcement is designed to mislead the general populace

Just add your objections to the list, we can include council staff have advised us in the past that for branding reasons they don't want operate in Priority B or C.

Maybe they have changed/updated their position since then.

Quote from: #Metro on February 19, 2024, 11:13:44 AMIIRC the vehicle is capable of running in Priority A, B or C. To get up to Mt Coot-tha it had to drive on local roads. Seemed to be fine.

Is there a ROW connecting the Eagle Farm depot where the vehicle currently is housed connecting the busways? I don't think there is. How does it get to and from the depot currently?

It's a bus after all.

It's far from clear that they will be permitted to operate "on-road" once everything is up and running.  I don't profess to know the terms on which these buses are registered but I wouldn't be surprised if there are concessions TMR is only agreeing to for testing purposes, especially since they are meant to be garaged at Rochedale and will only be used on services that never exit dedicated busways when carrying passengers (ignoring 3 at-grade crossings at the SEB portal, Grey Street and Gilchrist Avenue).  Remains to be seen if these can actually carry passengers in general traffic off the busway.  Maybe, but given how TMR behaves generally who knows.

Quote from: #Metro on February 19, 2024, 15:48:39 PMJust add your objections to the list, we can include council staff have advised us in the past that for branding reasons they don't want operate in Priority B or C.

Maybe they have changed/updated their position since then.

We're in an election campaign about 4 weeks out from polling day.  There's no point trying to organise anything out of Council probably until May at the earliest, especially where it touches on something that is at present only an electoral commitment of one party.

As it stands I'm not sure what the working plan is for actual busway north of Chermside.  Even when the State was still actively considering filling in the rest of the missing bits of busway between RBWH and Chermside, north of Chermside I'm fairly sure was never meant to be anything except transit lanes to Carseldine, and then a bit of busway on the eastern side of the railway through Fitzgibbon up to Telegraph Road.  That latter bit would now require relocating or wiping out the recently built eastern car park at Carseldine station, and I'm not sure if the Beams Road LX design makes provision for anything like this.

Why do we have to do anything? It's just a vote grabbing exercise that you treat as gospel and you have fallen hard for with blinders blocking everything once again.

Why don't you outline to us why it can get up and running quickly? Go find some studies or whatever and tell us how it will work and who will fund what.

Quote from: SurfRail on February 19, 2024, 16:54:13 PM

Quote from: #Metro on February 19, 2024, 15:48:39 PMJust add your objections to the list, we can include council staff have advised us in the past that for branding reasons they don't want operate in Priority B or C.

Maybe they have changed/updated their position since then.

We're in an election campaign about 4 weeks out from polling day.  There's no point trying to organise anything out of Council probably until May at the earliest, especially where it touches on something that is at present only an electoral commitment of one party.

As it stands I'm not sure what the working plan is for actual busway north of Chermside.  Even when the State was still actively considering filling in the rest of the missing bits of busway between RBWH and Chermside, north of Chermside I'm fairly sure was never meant to be anything except transit lanes to Carseldine, and then a bit of busway on the eastern side of the railway through Fitzgibbon up to Telegraph Road.  That latter bit would now require relocating or wiping out the recently built eastern car park at Carseldine station, and I'm not sure if the Beams Road LX design makes provision for anything like this.

You are correct.
Bus lanes in the median of Gympie road til Zillmere road
Bus lanes at the kerb on Zillmere road til Dorville road
Travels through mixed traffic on Dorville road til old Carseldine Tafe
Dedicated busway round the back of the old Tafe.
Flyover the railway line (some plans had an underpass instead)
Busway beside rail line til Linkfield road

Yes would require destroying eastern Carpark at Carseldine
Beams road overpass designs look like they've got provision for busway to pass under on eastern side

Bill Brown Sports Reserve Likely Northside Metro BRT Depot Site

I think I have identified the potential land parcel but we need to confirm via an Information Request IMO.

We know that (a) the land is already BCC owned, and (b) its in Fitzgibbon.

We also know that it would have to be a decent sized parcel and likely empty or industrial.

Fitzgibbon is not a large suburb, so the likely position is Bill Brown Sports Reserve off Telegraph Road. This would also seem likely because road access would be convenient.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/RgMh73QkEPu2dW9KA



National Heavy Vehicle Regulator Response

NHVR Enquiry (relevant excerpt)

QuoteSubject: Brisbane Metro (Bi-articulated buses) Query (from General Public)

Message:
I have read in the media that Brisbane City Council has imported a bi-articulated bus from Switzerland (Hess AG) for testing on city roads. If successful during testing, the council intends on buying 60 vehicles in total to run on busways in Brisbane. Are there any legal or regulatory prohibitions on having these bi-articulated buses also run on urban or suburban roads (such as main or arterial roads) in Brisbane or any other Australian State or Territory?.. [Remainder of message redacted]

NHVR Response

Quote from: NHVR Customer ServiceThank you for contacting the NHVR, we appreciate the time you've taken to do so.

Regarding your enquiry about the bi-articulated buses Brisbane City Council have had imported into Australia, the best department to get in contact with to discuss this further would be them. The NHVR liaise with relevant Transport Departments when it comes to Road Access and Conditions required for road access. It is the Council's decision what and how various types of vehicles travel on the roads.

If you require further assistance, please contact us on 13NHVR (136 487) or info@nhvr.gov.au.

Kind Regards,
[Redacted]

Get your Snake Oil!!

https://x.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1759726182457831933?s=20

I am surprised he hadn't blocked her for saying " You can't bust congestion with more roads"

He blocked everyone else who has said it!

Interview below.

Tracey's making general statements about bus improvement but these are not landing. Really would help if the BUZ program expansion was called out explicitly.

The half price bus fares policy is a lead balloon but it's too late to back out of it now. Apparently the state has agreed with her to break the fare integration *just* for BCC, providing further evidence of the dual transit agency arrangement.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-20/tracey-price-on-public-transport-food-waste-brisbane-rates/103489266

Transcripted Excerpt

VIDEO: Extended interview: Labor's Tracey Price on public transport, food waste bins, Brisbane rates, mosquitoes and flooding
Steve Austin, ABC Radio Brisbane

20 Feb 2024 (Morning Program)

5.01 minutes

Quote from: ABC Radio BrisbaneSteve: You have also announced that you will make the city's bus fares half price for certain trips. Which trips?

Tracey: It is not actually certain trips Steve, it's all trips. So every bus, every Brisbane City Council bus that runs in Brisbane will be half price.

Steve: How would you do that when it is really the State Government that is responsible for that through Translink?

Tracey: So we've spoken to the State Government about this and they are fully supportive of that plan.

Steve: So, the State Government, the Labor State Government has said they will fully fund your commitment to halve bus prices?

Tracey: It's not about them fully funding. Our view is that we are going to use money that is being forwarded in the plan for the metro to reallocate to bus – the transport network. And we will also see there will be an increase of numbers. So, it will balance itself out. And we have already spoken and planned that we can do that. The State have said that if we are prepared to do that then they will support it.

Steve: The State will divert money that was going to go into the metro project, will it divert money to your plan to halve the price of bus fares?

Tracey: It is not about diverting it. The way it works is there is money paid back to the State for the buses. So we, we, if Brisbane City Council is willing to cop that in their budget then the State will support that.

6.17 minutes

Interview:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-20/tracey-price-on-public-transport-food-waste-brisbane-rates/103489266

Bill Brown Sports Reserve Likely Northside Metro BRT Depot Site

From the public promotional video, it is possible to match the location to a Park at 390 Telegraph Road opposite Bill Brown Sports Reserve (background of image).


From the Brisbane Times article, the supplied artist impression shows Brisbane Metro BRT vehicles using Telegraph road in mixed traffic.



Notes
Promotional Video https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iLBTzVKSdug

Metro charging station to be built on Brisbane's northside under LNP plan
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/queensland/electric-buses-metro-to-expand-to-brisbane-s-northside-under-lnp-plan-20240217-p5f5qe.html