RAIL - Back On Track Forum

A lot of bs being posted here as facts.

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on January 14, 2024, 11:16:25 AMA lot of bs being posted here as facts.

Yep as per this post.

Quote from: #Metro on January 14, 2024, 10:58:21 AM

QuoteSkygate is outside the Air train contractual zone. So Translink can run as many buses as they like to and from Skygate.

Likewise with BAC, they can run as many buses as they like around the airport precinct as well as to and from Skygate without being in breach of the Airtrain contract.

Is this still the case though? Are buses still running to Skygate? I have used this option in the past but IMO I think it is not happening anymore. In any case, it does not deal with the late night service deficit.

Also, it is not something that works for all parties involved. We should prefer a solution that works for all parties in the room, rather than say cut out Airtrain with this free bus workaround.

 

Quote from: verbatim9 on January 14, 2024, 11:09:12 AMYes, it is still the case and also published on the Translink website on how to do so.

https://translink.com.au/travel-with-us/airport-services

Are you sure v9? What evidence do we have?

So the Translink website points to the Skygate website. There you will find the timetable link is curiously broken. See https://www.skygate.com.au/Directions



There is a timetable you can find from Google, but that is valid from 2017 onwards. It's 7 years old, so we can't rely on it.

Test: Translink website. If you input tomorrow (15 Jan 2024) and want to go from Skygate to Domestic terminal, it suggests catching 590 bus to Toombul and then backtracking to get a train as the fastest option.

If you then untick all modes except bus, you get an error returned. So, does (a) the service still exist, and (b) does it reach to Skygate?

OK, I have been able to find the updated timetable on the BNE website, valid from 2023.

Skygate Loop Service
https://www.bne.com.au/sites/default/files/docs/2023-05/Skygate%20Bus%20Timetable_2023.pdf

As you can see, service cuts out at 6 pm ish so not helpful for evening passengers. And not properly linked on the Translink, Skygate websites or the TL journey planner.

The DFO-Airport shuttle is a full time 30 minute frequency service and does not span the full hours and frequency as the airpark transfer which runs a 10 minute frequency 3.30am-12.30am/30 min to 1.30 and resumes services again at 3.30am. It also takes a significant amount of time to catch the shuttle bus to the airport as it only operates in one direction (international-domestic-dfo). DFO to domestic is about a 20 minute trip not including your transfer times between buses. Yes it's an option but it's not an option for everyone. If you have plenty of time to waste with long transfer waits by all means use it.  But also beware they do cut services without notification. Take Boxing Day. They don't run the shuttle. Also if there is congestion they can cut legs out and advise to use the next terminal transfer service which is every 10 mins.

It's actually quite fast to Skygate from the domestic,  as it goes express via the main road. On the way back to the terminals it's a bit slower as it goes via Qantas Drive and the International.

Quote from: #Metro on January 14, 2024, 11:31:06 AMOK, I have been able to find the updated timetable on the BNE website, valid from 2023.

Skygate Loop Service
https://www.bne.com.au/sites/default/files/docs/2023-05/Skygate%20Bus%20Timetable_2023.pdf

As you can see, service cuts out at 6 pm ish so not helpful for evening passengers. And not properly linked on the Translink, Skygate websites or the TL journey planner.

I have written before the pandemic to BAC asking if they can make their GFTS static and real time data available for transit apps like Google maps. I did get a reply stating that they were in the process of doing this. It's been long time so might try again.

https://twitter.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1746454627787379088?t=io5WHdcx8_F6iwNWH_-MWQ&s=19

^^Cameron Dick has hinted at buses being in the mix

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1746448443474685956?t=XUfGjH1xJa2ukzwKdPESyg&s=19

^ Lord Mayor and even passengers mention buses as well.

If you listen carefully, there is a long parade of different actors and agencies, who all have different positions.

This is exactly the problem. It seems like you need a UN resolution to get anything done. Different stakeholders all holding out to see if the other side will take on more of the responsibility/costs.

If this were Perth, the PTA would simply decide to run more service, and that would be the end of that.

Quote from: #Metro on January 14, 2024, 22:13:21 PM^ Lord Mayor and even passengers mention buses as well.

If you listen carefully, there is a long parade of different actors and agencies, who all have different positions.

Airtrain corporation literally have all the power. Lord Mayor and passengers can talk all they want, they have 0 legal authority to actually do anything.

Until there are honest negotiations with Brisbane Airtrain (TMR haven't been able to confirm that there has been) and a position of financial compensation to Brisbane Airtrain is reached, there will be no change.

The so called ' stepping in of the Federal Government ' is just a cover for the duplicity and lack of action by the State Government and TMR.

Get real people, misinformation, delusion and deceit, running deep with this.

The DG TMR has now been directed by Minister Mellish to commence negotiations.  This is a step in right direction but doesn't excuse the bullsh%t up to this point. I certainly have more confidence in the present DG of TMR than previous regimes.

Airtrain will want significant financial compensation for contract variation.  And quite right as well, as they built the line and entered in good faith with the BOOT agreement. Just because politically now it is all a cluster-fuk doesn't absolve the State from the agreement.

If they think outside the square, some of the financial compensation could be in kind - a reduced train charge for services to boost frequency and improve span. 

Lets see if the DG of TMR and staff are up to the task.

Taking notes        ?

Couriermail --> Federal Government pushes to overhaul Brisbane Airport public transport options $

QuoteDeputy Premier Cameron Dick has challenged the federal government and council to fund better public transport to Brisbane Airport – but wouldn't detail what could be done while Airtrain enjoys exclusive access to the precinct.

It comes after The Sunday Mail reported Federal Infrastructure Minister Catherine King has written to the state government urging it to find a solution to the 35-year contract with foreign-owned Brisbane Airtrain that gives it exclusive public transport access to both terminals until 2036.

Mr Dick on Sunday acknowledged the state would increase efforts to find a solution to the Airtrain contract after previous transport minister Mark Bailey was unable to do so.

"There are issues in relation to that contract which was concluded by the then-LNP government about 20 years ago, and it's not been a great deal," Mr Dick said.

"We need to look at that contract and what it means but if we are to improve public transport to the airport we would welcome a significant investment from the federal government and Adrian Schrinner's council to help us do that." ...

Minister Dick has had an enlightenment!   

QuoteDeputy Premier Cameron Dick has challenged the federal government and council to fund better public transport to Brisbane Airport

Quotewe would welcome a significant investment from the federal government and Adrian Schrinner's council to help us do that.

 

The Federal Government and Council have to be challenged to supply funding... because why? The train line is already there!

It is just trying to shift costs and responsibilities to other parties. And if BCC runs buses to the Airport, they will ask for Translink subsidy to do that, meaning the Queensland Government also pays, either way.

Meanwhile, over at the Public Transport Authority of WA and Transperth... if they want more trains to the Airport, they just put them on. Simple!

No negotiation or fund-seeking with anyone else is required.

What a circus!

Interview 4BC Radio Mornings with Host Bill McDonald and Robert Dow RBoT

Topic Public Transport for SEQ and the Olympics, Airtrain and a little on LX removals.

Airtrain discussion from 4 minute 50 seconds mark.

Here --> https://backontrack.org/docs/4bc/4bc_bm_rd_15jan24.mp3 MP3 7.5MB

https://x.com/railbotforum/status/1746735328726249577?s=20

Facebook ...

Sent to all outlets:

Deception, delusion and dupery!

17th January 2024

Good Morning,

More recent media concerning Brisbane Airtrain.   

E.g. Couriermail --> Federal Government pushes to overhaul Brisbane Airport public transport options
https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/qld-politics/federal-government-pushes-to-overhaul-brisbane-airport-public-transport-options/news-story/c396b05a860959b73834f608f39ee59c

I spoke to the situation with the Brisbane Airtrain and other current issues with the situation with public transport in SEQ in a recent interview on 4BC.

The Transport Minister, TMR have been unable to confirm that negotiations did occur previously with respect service changes for Brisbane Airport.

We can only hope that the new personnel in transport can focus on what is needed from here, and stand aside from the counter-productive mind-numbing political games and actually get some clear thinking and action happening for public transport improvement in SEQ.

Interview 15 Jan 2024 4BC Radio Mornings with Host Bill McDonald and Robert Dow RAIL Back On Track

Topic Public Transport for SEQ and the Olympics, Airtrain and a little on LX removals.

Airtrain discussion from 4 minute 50 seconds mark.

Here --> https://backontrack.org/docs/4bc/4bc_bm_rd_15jan24.mp3 MP3 7.5MB

Happy listening!

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on December 02, 2023, 04:47:01 AMSent to all outlets:

Call for the Minister for Transport to confirm that negotiations with Brisbane Airtrain re contract variation have occurred

2nd December 2023

Good Morning,

It is with some concern I write to you this morning.  There have been suggestions by the Minister for Transport and reported in the media that there have been negotiations with Brisbane Airtrain about contract variation of their service. Sources have suggested that there have been no negotiations and a façade of falsehood is being presented.

To attempt to verify whether or not negotiations have taken place, RAIL Back On Track made an administrative inquiry to RTI DTMR recently to see if we could obtain the following information:

" We like to know the dates that these negotiations (re contract variation) have occurred over the past 3 years. We understand and expect that the substance of the these negotiations would be ' Commercial In Confidence ', but we believe the dates of these negotiations should be publicly available. "

The response from RTI DTMR was that the requested information is unable to be provided to us administratively.  If you wish to seek further information then proceed with a RTI application.  This costs money and is unlikely to succeed because of the cloak of commercial-in-confidence and the lack of transparency generally with the Queensland Government.

We now call on the Minister for Transport to directly and publicly confirm that negotiations have actually occurred and the date of those negotiations.  There is absolutely no reason why these dates should not be made public (assuming negotiations have actually occurred).

A null response will confirm that there have been no negotiations and we all are being mislead.

The ball is in your court Minister!

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

References:

====

Examination of the estimates for the transport and main roads and digital
services portfolio areas

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/com/TRC-645B/C20232024-8423/2023_08_08_EstimatesTRC.pdf

Queensland 2023/2024 portfolio budget estimates

Page 29

Mr BERKMAN: Minister, I am keen to hear from you whether the government is interested in
bringing the Airtrain back into public hands before the expiry of that contract in 2036 when that
monopoly condition would cease to apply.

Mr BAILEY: I am advised that any discussions with Airtrain are subject to strict commercial
confidentiality provisions, so I am not able to make any further comment at this point. What I can say
to the honourable member is that the Queensland government will always consider our available
options based on merit, delivering value for money and enhancing the rail network for the majority of
customers. That is probably all I can give you at this point.

====

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/future-seq/future-brisbane-airtrain-the-only-airport-mass-transit-for-2032-games/news-story/909d01e8fc4879250af86c5d1e5046ee  20th November 2023

Transport Minister Mark Bailey has confirmed negotiations to potentially cut short the 35-year contract – which prohibits public buses being run to either the domestic or international terminal – have broken down.

It also poses a problem for Brisbane Airport as it gets ready to expand its workforce from 20,000 to 30,000 employees in time for the Games.

"TMR (Transport and Main Roads) and the owners of Airtrain CityLink are no longer in discussions about incorporating airport services into the Translink network," Mr Bailey said.

"These discussions were commercial in nature and no further comment can be provided."

====

Part of Couriermail Editorial 30th November 2023

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/editorial-top-five-priorities-for-our-future-brisbane/news-story/b1606214ac0150e880b2c3402b67c336

... The monopoly that Airtrain has on mass-transit to the Brisbane Airport is an outdated decision that must be changed. The revelation last Monday that Transport Minister Mark Bailey has given up on negotiating an outcome with Airtrain was a shock to all involved. ...

====

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/kylie-lang/kylie-lang-it-beggars-belief-that-bailey-continues-to-survive/news-story/d66a501b629ee8ae84a92fdee969ddb0 2nd December 2023

" ... Just last week I called out Bailey's ongoing ineptitude – in particular his failure to negotiate with the UK owners of Airtrain, to the detriment of anyone travelling to and from the Brisbane airport on public transport. ... "

====

I know in the current world of budget limits (you know my views on funding) this is unlikely so this is just ideation but is an option to go to Airtrain and move arrangement to more of a partnership/JV by agreeing to fund the duplication and grade separation of junction at Toombul? And any additional station that might make sense... if any.

That way both Airtrain and QLD Govt have a similar investment in the line.

^ I guess it now rests with the Minister for Transport and delegates (TMR) to negotiate with Airtrain.

The line duplication has been raised before, some time ago I understand, but was not supported by the State.

A flying junction I think has also been considered in the past but has ' never flown '. 

I don't think these things will be considered until a position is worked out (if at all) between Airtrain and the State re service improvements, and possible bus access.  A possible outcome is that Airtrain could sell out to the state if the financial compensation was sufficient in their view.  It is a matter now of waiting to see what happens with negotiations.

It is hard to get outcomes if there have been no negotiations ....

Grade separation is never going to happen. Just too expensive for what's a non issue. And the same with duplication. While there are some dual supporting piers most aren't so it still needs substantial works. And it's unlikely Airtrain will fund it now given how close it is to the BOOT expiry. Any duplication I'd say would rely on the government or extending Airtrains contract with them getting some concessions.

I don't think grade sepping or duplication is a high priority.

The operator will want somebody else to pay to run more trains.  That's the only real obstacle to a 15 minute headway all day and a longer span of hours - especially once the rollingstock availability stabilises in the next year or so.

The only duplication I can see happening is if a Skygate station happens, in which case having duplication between there and International would make sense.  Again it would be the State paying for this, maybe with very modest contribution from BAC (probably just "in kind" stuff).

Well, how much would both line items cost?

The whole line only cost $200 million in 2001, about $360 million in today's dollars.
Duplication and possibly grade separation would be a fraction of that.

BCC and QLD Gov made capital contributions to private toll roads in the past IRC, so what's the issue here, especially given the infrastructure will return to state hands in the end anyway?

Money paid for duplication etc could part purchase the asset... or be used to shorten the contract end date.

QuoteThe whole line only cost $200 million in 2001, about $360 million in today's dollars.

Lets be honest I think construction costs have accelerated.

Because you can Benchmark against the Flinders Link extension in Adelaide, which was a 650m viaduct for $140m.
https://www.infrabuild.com/case-studies/flinders-link-rail-project-south-australia/

Meanwhile Airtrain is more like 8.5km, so you do the maths on a realistic cost.

Edit, the unduplicated section is closer to 5km.

It may also be that certain parts of the job were innately cheaper due to involving BAC land (factors which would not apply anywhere else in any urbanised areas of Queensland).

Good observation SurfRail, there might not be any land acquisition costs. Do you think it might be similar this time around?

Might be a lot cheaper than we might think... they need to get an indicative cost.

Comparing costs is something of a minefield.  Anecdotally I understand the "cheap" capital costs that come out of WA reflect the way the WA Govt / PTA report things - not so much a case of hiding things as putting things in different buckets that don't reflect the all-up cost if you quote the headline figure.

Why would you spend money on duplication when the line as it is seems quite capable of supporting 4tph, which is all that is needed for a while yet I would think.

The line is already duplicated between the International and Domestic terminals.

I think creating the DFO Skygate station might negate the need for duplication.

Metro, you can not compare any costs as it's vastly different. And it's not cheap. Yes property resumptions are required on federal land. And as I mentioned not all the piers are double width. If they were all they had to do was bring in the spans but to cut costs only a few were. This means you need to do major works. And works that won't interfere with the existing line and road. Qantas drive is a good example of this and how it and the surrounding land changed during and after its construction. A lot of freight companies and essential airline assets such as dnata or qantas freight facilities wont be happy with moving.

Skygate station is a myth that won't happen. It gets used in glossy brouchers. The fundamental problem is you can't have it serving DFO and workers in the airport area. You can chuck it in the middle but then you introduce a long walk which defeats the purpose of using it. You can move it closer to DFO but at the moment only a handful of shops open before 9am in the Skygate area with the entire dfo shopping area opening at 10am (don't look at the closing times either). Workers simply won't use the train anyway due to the nature of their employment there and the work hours.

Perth built a similar station on the edge of the Airport precinct, and that was dual track and underground in a tunnel to boot.

The things you mention HTG are not full defences and are partial at best.

Quote from: OzGamer on January 17, 2024, 14:04:29 PMWhy would you spend money on duplication when the line as it is seems quite capable of supporting 4tph, which is all that is needed for a while yet I would think.

The line is already duplicated between the International and Domestic terminals.

maybe just maybe we want to match other leading cities with frequencies less than 15mins? Like Sydney?

Not a defence. You are always going on about cost benefits. I was just listing constraints that will increase the cost. You are always going on about costs that someone has to pay. And the location will determine patronage. Which you are also going on about all the time. So please feel free to enlighten us all why a Skygate is needed and why the line needs to be duplicated when there are other areas across the network that have more pressing needs.

QuoteThe fundamental problem is you can't have it serving DFO and workers in the airport area. You can chuck it in the middle but then you introduce a long walk which defeats the purpose of using it.

Of course, one station wont ever do everything, and the same argument could be made against other stations next to retail, eg Coomera (Shops have limited hours at Westfield, Dreamworld closes at 5)

I think in this case though the intent would be that a station there could support further development.
A few more hotels, more shops now that Toombul is dead, offices etc.

I think the industrial area on Qantas Dr and Lomandra Dr is a secondary concern, those types of stations (Bindha, Sunshine, Gailes etc) do poorly regardless, so I wouldn't base a business case on them, or position a station based on walking distance.

Of course, you could provide some basic bus service linking from Skygate.

QuoteAnd works that won't interfere with the existing line and road.

I mean, you'd realign the road, since the properties on the northen side have reasonable setbacks anyway.

The only reason I pay a Skygate station any heed is because the State has at least contemplated it will be built.  It's not a preserved or planned site in the IDAS system like Ellen Grove, or the missing Northern Busway stations, but it has been mentioned in at least one plan I can recall.  That certainly doesn't translate into it being built.  The current SEQ RTP doesn't indicate anything other than buses:

Quote from: Jonnomaybe just maybe we want to match other leading cities with frequencies less than 15mins? Like Sydney?

Good point Jonno. Let's compare it to leading city ... Perth.

Perth has double track to Perth Airport, has a "Skygate" like station in the form of Redcliffe (complete with Perth's version of DFO and Woolies)... and if you look at the timetable...

... it's 12-minute frequency in peak. So, more frequent than Brisbane Airtrain.

Transperth Airport Line Timetable (Extract)


A Skygate station may or may not be a good idea - this will need to be established separately.

That said, a train station would allow a more intensive development of the site by enabling the repurposing land currently used for car parking. And using that instead for buildings. A train station can do that.

Source: Transperth, Airport Line Timetable (Extract)
https://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/timetablepdfs/Airport%20Line%2020221010.pdf

Id say the frequency is also because of High Wycombe, and also because it's a 3 way branch at Bayswater for Midland and Ellenbrook, so there is a need to maintain clockface frequency every 4 mins at that station in peak.