RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: #Metro on January 15, 2024, 12:08:08 PMWhat will the Day 1 train frequency be?

Can it support 15 minute train service like Perth?

If not, what would be needed to make that happen?

Recent meetings and the status quo suggests unlikely. GC line not getting those sort of improvements so it's unlikely that the SC line will get those either.

Imagine all those bi directional 15 min lines conversing into one closer to the city.

Talking about Cluster F%$K!

That's even if they ever get the trains and other resources to achieve such a feat.

Plus removing the level crossings needed for something like this happen.

Many many years away.

Driver only would need to be in place to make it economically viable anyway.

I reckon they will introduce 9 car sets on the GC and SC lines sooner than we think to overcome capacity issues.

Those long distance urban trains would only need a maximum of 20 mins or better.

You still don't know what you are talking about. Just because you mention things doesn't mean you understand or know what you are saying. Bidirectional and DOO means nothing. Remember onboard crew costs isn't the big problem with NGR but PSA to keep the schedule in check. NGRs also require significant modifications to make them DOO compliant despite them being designed on a DOO platform. So stop bringing it up. It has been planned since the early 2000's internally. This is what politicians got confused over as they interpreted longer trains being 7 car trains and like you preached the hell out of it not knowing the fundamental flaws in why it was never going to happen. Funny how they no longer mention 7 car trains. Or how making the timetable universal solved capacity issues. Long distance trains will go to a lower frequency (4tph - not your 3tph as you keep preaching) with longer trains (9 car) with 6 car trains boosting the coverage on the inner lines most likely also at 4tph. NGRs were designed to have an additional 3 cars joined in the middle. Nothing new. So you'll get to the point where you can increase capacity without needing to increase the frequency. But we are a long way away from that. And don't believe everything you read or hear from politicians. Or even different departments. Take MBRL. QR wanted a 6th platform for peak hour operations/future proofing for NWTC/shorter operations as Strathpine provisioning was moved there and an additional track in the Caboolture line direction for the future triple/stabling yard along with future proofing the network during the Anzac road overpass replacement project. TMR had multiple designs from tenders and overruled what QR wanted with a cheaper design and gutted even further under Newman to cut costs.

Peak causes a lot more than 4tph (per direction when including empty running) to converge in the city every morning and afternoon without this clusterf#ck you speak of.

Many, many cities (including in Japan, widely thought of as one of, if not the best rail network in the world) have two person crewed trains, yet they still run 4+tph in both directions all the time.
20min frequency is just plain sh!t. It's not turn up and go, and you're actually going to reduce the current frequency in the inner areas for that. Completely moronic when the aim is to increase frequency across a greater part of the network. Plus, the Airport line can't do greater than 15min frequency, so you're wanting to make that permanently worse. You are literally the ONLY person on this board that wants 20min frequency. Give it up already.

And again, peak is where most road congestion at crossings is, and there's a hell of a lot more than 8tph total trains running along most corridors with level crossings at those times, yet the world keeps spinning. Hell, we already have the Ferny Grove line running 15min frequencies both directions weekdays with level crossings with no issue. Perth runs 8tph per direction on lines with levek crossings. All around the world have lines running at 15min or better frequencies with level crossings. Level crossings are NOT an inhibiting point of higher frequency off-peak operation.

There are plenty of trains for 15min frequencies off-peak right now on lines that have the infra for it. A lot more trains are needed for peak vs off-peak even with 15min frequencies. If it came to it, they could go back to the old style train split and re-connect after AM peak/before PM peak to run 3car trains at 15mij frequencies off-peak if extra trains are needed for maintenance. Crewing might be an issue still by what I hear, but how much that will preclude things in the next few years i'm not sure.

On some lines you would have the boom gates down over a considerable amount of time. Some lines would experience boomgates down due to 24 or more movements an hour. That's equates to Boom gates being down every two mins.

Perth has a modern system where multiple  lines don't converge into one. They are generally run separately, hence, they only need to contend with the boomgates being down every 8-9 mins off peak.


Japan's example is different to that of Australia. They don't have busy arterial roads with level crossings. Mostly only local roads that don't have an impact on overall congestion.

They also have a different IR structure as well as a significant contribution to the fare box which makes it more economical to stick with trains that are run by multiple crew. Saying that they are in the process of automation as well as eliminating guards over time. I believe they will stick with attendants similar to the Singapore and Malaysian systems.

We also need to consider infrastructure short falls limiting where frequency can be improved.

While the theory that 15 mins can be optimal, 20 mins or better can make significant improvements for the travelling public getting from A to B.

I could just imagine the impeding problems if a guard or driver doesn't rock up on time for a change over for 15 mins or better and the backlog and issues that it would create on a daily basis.

At least with DOO you only need to ensure drivers are on time.

Yes the positioning of trains on the network along with frequency improvements can result in overall traffic kaos and frustration for motorists, cyclists and pedestrians, as a result of boom gates being down. This in turn would also increase the likelihood of  serious accidents due to people taking unforseen risks.

As we live in a risk adverse society the government see these risks as unacceptable, hence, the minister's comments the other day on frequency, traffic and boomgates.

QuoteThey don't have busy arterial roads with level crossings.

So what LXs are on arterial roads that actually matter in Brisbane, beyond current commitments?
I'd say:
Coorparoo
Lindum
Alderly
Grovely
Mitchelton
Ferny Grove
Strathpine
Warrigal Rd
Wynnum Rd Wynnum

QuoteWhile the theory that 15 mins can be optimal 20 mins or better can make significant improvements for the travelling public getting from A to B.

Can you give it a rest?

Of course new lines can suit increased frequency patterns. That's doesn't mean it's going to be bi dorectional 15 mins or better.

This talk on bi directional 15 mins or better to the Sunny Coast is way out of touch in the current scheme of things.

Remember the longer the line the more drivers you need.

This is another reason GC line is not going to bi - directional 15 mins or better in the foreseeable future.

I could see these lines going to 20 mins or better for improved service patterns, but not in the next two years.  Maybe in 5 years? Saying that, DOO 9 car sets will be the answer on these lines with extra peak services.

People are ahead of themselves regarding bi directional 15 mins or better services to the Sunny Coast --->https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=13068.msg279431#msg279431

Good to see you don't properly actually read what people write here, just randomly respond to things that weren't actually said.

But to answer some stuff you did comment on:
Off-peak, which lines would have 24tph where there are level crossings?!
It's also well known there are infra shortfalls meaning some lines aren't yet suitable for 15min freq, nobody here is disputing that.

As for Perth:
Armadale line:
15min freq Thornlie and 15min freq Armadale trains, both directions. Plenty of level crossings on the combined section.
Midland line:
15min freq Midland line trains, 15min High Wycombe trains with a level crossing on the combined section.
Level crossing at McIver which combines all of the above.

Plus, what level crossings in Brisbane are there that would cause chaos after the convergance of all lines?! Closest thing to that is Sherwood rd, which is only the Ipswich and Springfield lines! Or between Northgate and Petrie which again only has the Cabbo and Kippa lines. Peak hour those two corridors already have trains every 3 minutes passing through for close to an hour in the core of peak, plus 4tph in counter peak, plus multiple emlty trains, could easily be 30tph total! Hell of a lot more than the 16tph total if all lines received 15min frequency.
And again, the Ferny Grove line already has 4tph off-peak frequency with many level crossings, including quite busy crossings, and yet the world continues to turn without off-peak gridlock from those crossings.

It will be quite some time before Japan does end up fully automated, yet they have two person crews running frequencies of every couple minutes in all directions!!

Crews turning up late - wow, really grasping at straws for this one!! Crews in Brisbane work together for a shift. If one doesn't turn up at the start of the shift, the roster office is called and a standby crew member jumps in instead - not that hard!! And its not like trains are constantly delayed by that now, so why on earth would that change in the future?!

As an 'at home' example: Sydney run 15min or better frequency across much of the network with a two person crew. You've also been told upteen million times that the cost of the second crew member really is not that much in relation to all the other costs associated with running the network, so would you please give it a rest? The network isn't DOO ready, the trains aren't DOO ready and neither will be for many, many years and a hell of a lot of $$$. Melbourne would npt be able to get rid of guards if they tried it these days with their network. That exact same risk adverse society will prevent guards being phased out without a lot of network upgrades. If we're waiting for DOO, better be prepared to wait for a few more decades.

20minute frequency is almost as sh!t as 30min frequency. Timetable still needed to be looked at to ensure you don't miss the train, and if you do miss one and there's a significant wait still. 15min is well accepted around the world as the minimum 'Turn up and go' frequency where patronage starts to really build up. Less than that and patronage really doesn't do that much. Let alone how down in Melbourne it goes from 20 to 40min frequencies - shove that back where you found it!

As for the Sunny Coast being 4tph.. it hasn't even been approved to be built yet!! So settle down. Questions are simply being asked as to what frequency it could be.
If it becomes anything like the GC line, it will definitely be able to support 15min frequency (likely extention of Cabbo trains as with current Nambour operation). The Gold Coast could quite easily support 15min frequency trains with the patronage that use that line, it's just the infra constraints currently that is the major hurdle (other things weigh in also, but infra would be the biggest).

More fundamental issue here - why do we even care about level crossings being closed to traffic?  We don't build level crossings across the M1 despite there not being a way across it for vehicles, pedestrians or cyclists for at times several kilometres between interchanges, so why do people need to get over a railway at grade when there is an existing grade separated crossing in many cases within less than a 1km detour?

The only real issue for me is that many of the busiest ones in inner Brisbane affect the reliability of bus services (150/155/156/157 for Fruitgrove, 343/345 for Alderley, 184/185/210/211 for Coorparoo etc).  The one at Strathpine for instance, despite supposedly being the "worst" one, has 2 grade-separated options just to the south, and the only bus using it is the hourly 670 which could probably be diverted to use Kremzow Road with no significant impact on its useability (apart from making the interchange to a train at Strathpine a bit worse for the small number of people who would be doing that).

A list of proposed LX closures with zero grade separation or replacement.  Just close the things outright.  (Excludes existing or planned commitments at Carseldine + Coopers Plains + the 5 which are part of LGCFR + any part of B2B.) 

4 lines where there are already no LXs between the terminus and the CBD (except where "shared" with other lines):

- Airport Line (nil at all).

- Gold Coast Line (nil save for those on the Beenleigh Line segment - 6 committed for removal already).

- Redcliffe Peninsula Line (nil save for those on the North Coast Line segment - 1 committed for removal already).

- Springfield Line (nil save for Sherwood).

4 lines with no straight out closures:

- Doomben Line (probably neither of the existing 2 would be priorities for any spending).

- Rosewood Line (no need for any of those 5 to be removed unless the line sees more regular use).

- Shorncliffe Line (ideally grade sep Banyo at some point, but the other 4 LXs around Deagon and Sandgate probably don't require it any time soon).

- Sunshine Coast Line north of D'Aguilar Hwy (any existing LXs between Landsborough and Nambour to be removed as part of long term upgrade of the corridor / road realignments / maintenance of access arrangements for individual properties near the corridor + anything further north of that probably not essential).

5 lines where LXs can be closed outright with no grade sepping (10 in total to be closed):

- Beenleigh Line - 3 to close.  Runcorn (close either Bonemill Road or Nathan Road and grade sep the other one), Sunnybank (Mains Road overpass already exists), Salisbury (Beaudesert Road overpass already exists, LX can stay in place and be chained off but kept as emergency flood access). Warrigal Road and Bonemill Road / Nathan Road would be grade-sepped and all others are the subject of existing plans to remove or grade separate.

- North Coast Line (south of D'Aguilar Hwy only) - 4 to close.  Northgate Road (Sandgate Road overpass already exists), Strathpine (Mott Street underpass is compromised a fair bit is available; Kremzow Road overpass does not have the same issues and could be expanded probably more cheaply than grade sepping South Pine Road), Lawnton (Francis Road overpass already exists) and McKean Street (Lower King Street overpass already exists). Probably need to grade sep Sunshine, Narangba, Burpengary, Morayfield and Pumicestone Road.

- Cleveland Line - 1 to close.  Murrarie only (Creek Road overpass already exists).  The balance LXs from Coorparoo to Wynnum Central would probably involve grade sepping - I think road over at Cannon Hill, but rail over for Coorparoo and from Lindum to Manly).

- Ferny Grove Line - 1 to close.  Ferny Grove only at Arbor Street (access to Samford Road through the TOD east-west roadway or via Tramway Street).  I would be skyrailing between Gaythorne and Grovely to wipe out 5 LXs in one hit, and grade sepping Newmarket, Alderley and the other LX at Ferny Grove on Samford Road itself.

- Ipswich Line - 1 to close.  Sherwood only (alternative access at Long Street and Quarry Road - these are restricted height but it would be easier to fix those 2 bridges and the approaches than do anything about Sherwood itself).  Wacol Station Road to be grade sepped.

Basically if they had a bit of gumption, this could be done quite easily.  10 LXs just closed, 5 happening as part of LGCFR, 2 existing standalone commitments, 3 as part of B2B and you have only have 29 left if you ignore north of Beerwah and west of Ipswich.  15 of those would be on the Ferny Grove to Cleveland sector  alone, which would be ripe for packaging up and skyrailing in places.

- Lindum to Manly = 4 LXs
- Coorparoo = 2 LXs
- Gaythorne to Grovely = 5 LXs
- Other standalone Cleveland and Ferny Grove project = 4 LXs (Cannon Hill, Newmarket, Alderley, Samford Road)

That leaves 14.  Assuming a very low priority for Shorncliffe (except Banyo) and Doomben (total of 6), that leaves 8 - 5 on the NCL from Sunshine to Pumicestone Road, Fruitgrove + Runcorn, and Wacol off by itself.

Quote from: verbatim9 on January 15, 2024, 17:01:28 PMPeople are ahead of themselves regarding bi directional 15 mins or better services to the Sunny Coast --->https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=13068.msg279431#msg279431

Quoting yourself is not really an argument is it?  It's just rude.  People are perfectly capable of reading your posts in other threads.

Quote from: verbatim9 on January 15, 2024, 16:29:21 PMWe also need to consider infrastructure short falls limiting where frequency can be improved.

While the theory that 15 mins can be optimal, 20 mins or better can make significant improvements for the travelling public getting from A to B.

I could just imagine the impeding problems if a guard or driver doesn't rock up on time for a change over for 15 mins or better and the backlog and issues that it would create on a daily basis.

At least with DOO you only need to ensure drivers are on time.

Yes the positioning of trains on the network along with frequency improvements can result in overall traffic kaos and frustration for motorists, cyclists and pedestrians, as a result of boom gates being down. This in turn would also increase the likelihood of  serious accidents due to people taking unforseen risks.

As we live in a risk adverse society the government see these risks as unacceptable, hence, the minister's comments the other day on frequency, traffic and boomgates.

You clearly have no idea about railway operations and are just talking out of your ass with comments right up there with skyrail and Geebung maglevs. The only shortfalls around are your posts with a large amount of fundamental flaws.

Yes, buses too are included in the Boom Gate turmoil, causing traffic gridlock, which inhibit train frequency upgrades.

Quote from: SurfRail on January 15, 2024, 18:01:14 PMMott Street underpass is

... out of action due to flooding a fair bit of the time! I agree that the general solution for Strathpine is to expand the Kremzow Rd overpass - though this is about to get harder; the property to its south is getting redeveloped soon.

Quote from: SurfRail on January 15, 2024, 18:01:14 PMMore fundamental issue here - why do we even care about level crossings being closed to traffic?  We don't build level crossings across the M1 despite there not being a way across it for vehicles, pedestrians or cyclists for at times several kilometres between interchanges, so why do people need to get over a railway at grade when there is an existing grade separated crossing in many cases within less than a 1km detour?

The only real issue for me is that many of the busiest ones in inner Brisbane affect the reliability of bus services (150/155/156/157 for Fruitgrove, 343/345 for Alderley, 184/185/210/211 for Coorparoo etc).  The one at Strathpine for instance, despite supposedly being the "worst" one, has 2 grade-separated options just to the south, and the only bus using it is the hourly 670 which could probably be diverted to use Kremzow Road with no significant impact on its useability (apart from making the interchange to a train at Strathpine a bit worse for the small number of people who would be doing that).

A list of proposed LX closures with zero grade separation or replacement.  Just close the things outright.  (Excludes existing or planned commitments at Carseldine + Coopers Plains + the 5 which are part of LGCFR + any part of B2B.) 

4 lines where there are already no LXs between the terminus and the CBD (except where "shared" with other lines):

- Airport Line (nil at all).

- Gold Coast Line (nil save for those on the Beenleigh Line segment - 6 committed for removal already).

- Redcliffe Peninsula Line (nil save for those on the North Coast Line segment - 1 committed for removal already).

- Springfield Line (nil save for Sherwood).

4 lines with no straight out closures:

- Doomben Line (probably neither of the existing 2 would be priorities for any spending).

- Rosewood Line (no need for any of those 5 to be removed unless the line sees more regular use).

- Shorncliffe Line (ideally grade sep Banyo at some point, but the other 4 LXs around Deagon and Sandgate probably don't require it any time soon).

- Sunshine Coast Line north of D'Aguilar Hwy (any existing LXs between Landsborough and Nambour to be removed as part of long term upgrade of the corridor / road realignments / maintenance of access arrangements for individual properties near the corridor + anything further north of that probably not essential).

5 lines where LXs can be closed outright with no grade sepping (10 in total to be closed):

- Beenleigh Line - 3 to close.  Runcorn (close either Bonemill Road or Nathan Road and grade sep the other one), Sunnybank (Mains Road overpass already exists), Salisbury (Beaudesert Road overpass already exists, LX can stay in place and be chained off but kept as emergency flood access). Warrigal Road and Bonemill Road / Nathan Road would be grade-sepped and all others are the subject of existing plans to remove or grade separate.

- North Coast Line (south of D'Aguilar Hwy only) - 4 to close.  Northgate Road (Sandgate Road overpass already exists), Strathpine (Mott Street underpass is compromised a fair bit is available; Kremzow Road overpass does not have the same issues and could be expanded probably more cheaply than grade sepping South Pine Road), Lawnton (Francis Road overpass already exists) and McKean Street (Lower King Street overpass already exists). Probably need to grade sep Sunshine, Narangba, Burpengary, Morayfield and Pumicestone Road.

- Cleveland Line - 1 to close.  Murrarie only (Creek Road overpass already exists).  The balance LXs from Coorparoo to Wynnum Central would probably involve grade sepping - I think road over at Cannon Hill, but rail over for Coorparoo and from Lindum to Manly).

- Ferny Grove Line - 1 to close.  Ferny Grove only at Arbor Street (access to Samford Road through the TOD east-west roadway or via Tramway Street).  I would be skyrailing between Gaythorne and Grovely to wipe out 5 LXs in one hit, and grade sepping Newmarket, Alderley and the other LX at Ferny Grove on Samford Road itself.

- Ipswich Line - 1 to close.  Sherwood only (alternative access at Long Street and Quarry Road - these are restricted height but it would be easier to fix those 2 bridges and the approaches than do anything about Sherwood itself).  Wacol Station Road to be grade sepped.

Basically if they had a bit of gumption, this could be done quite easily.  10 LXs just closed, 5 happening as part of LGCFR, 2 existing standalone commitments, 3 as part of B2B and you have only have 29 left if you ignore north of Beerwah and west of Ipswich.  15 of those would be on the Ferny Grove to Cleveland sector  alone, which would be ripe for packaging up and skyrailing in places.

- Lindum to Manly = 4 LXs
- Coorparoo = 2 LXs
- Gaythorne to Grovely = 5 LXs
- Other standalone Cleveland and Ferny Grove project = 4 LXs (Cannon Hill, Newmarket, Alderley, Samford Road)

That leaves 14.  Assuming a very low priority for Shorncliffe (except Banyo) and Doomben (total of 6), that leaves 8 - 5 on the NCL from Sunshine to Pumicestone Road, Fruitgrove + Runcorn, and Wacol off by itself.

What's the purpose of closing a level crossing as opposed to just leaving it as is? Is it a heavy maintenance bill or is it just to shut people up with their talk of sitting at boom gates despite the overpass 1 minute away?

Quote from: verbatim9 on January 15, 2024, 18:40:46 PMYes, buses too are included in the Boom Gate turmoil, causing traffic gridlock, which inhibit train frequency upgrades.

IIRC both drivers of the Alderley level crossing incidents were dismissed from BT/TFB. Both instances the line was already 4tph. In these instances both drivers stopped in illegal locations.

Level crossing closures are a mixed bag. They are closed for various reasons but mostly they have political reasons. You also have multiple parties to please with that being residents, council and state MPs.

Quote from: NothingToSay on January 15, 2024, 19:52:00 PMWhat's the purpose of closing a level crossing as opposed to just leaving it as is? Is it a heavy maintenance bill or is it just to shut people up with their talk of sitting at boom gates despite the overpass 1 minute away?

Every open LX represents brittleness in the resilience of the network - for rail and bus (let alone other road users or pedestrians).  I have the same view of low bridges but those don't seem to have quite the same innate safety risk.