RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Yes, hurry up ETCS and Driver Only Operations. So we can then focus on getting more trains on the network to improve frequency to 20 mins or better 7days from 7am - 9 pm across the train and bus network in SE Qld.

I wonder once Beenleigh and Loganlea stations are rebuilt as well as the Trinder Park section straightening if it would support 3 trains per hour bi- directional to the Gold Coast off peak, as well as weekends and public holidays from 7am-9pm?

In addition to Beerwah

That would improve things so much getting to and from.

They could have these improvements ready by the time CRR is commissioned.

Quote from: verbatim9 on January 02, 2024, 15:56:18 PMYes, hurry up ETCS and Driver Only Operations. So we can then focus on getting more trains on the network to improve frequency to 20 mins or better 7days from 7am - 9 pm across the train and bus network in SE Qld.

Urgh. Stop with DOO. None of the trains are DOO compatible. The one that is would be NGRs but even then they need heavy modifications to be compliant. So just please stop with the DOO BS.

Quote from: verbatim9 on January 02, 2024, 15:56:18 PMYes, hurry up ETCS and Driver Only Operations. So we can then focus on getting more trains on the network to improve frequency to 20 mins or better 7days from 7am - 9 pm across the train and bus network in SE Qld.

Not sure if "We" is the right word to use on a largely opinion post.  I do recall the last time 20 minutes to everywhere was put forward to RBot a majority disagreed and 15 mins was the way to go.

As I've suggested some months back this was brought up, why not start a side group, such as VBOT (or whatever you may call it) where you can advocate for 20 mins to everywhere on your group.  If the likes of say Brizcommuter and the "Translink Ripoff" can do their advocating through their own pages, then it's possible for you to do as well.

Agree with above.  15 minutes is the gold standard, why bother with '20 minutes or better'

Yeah, has to be 15 mins, for a number of reasons.

- 20 mins isn't quite frequent enough Imo. That's why BUZ is 15 not 20. 15 is more useful.

-15 min frequency is needed to coordinate with the BUZ network and future HF bus routes.

-15 min frequency is what the government has already stated as its aim in SEQ rail connects, so we should hold them accountable to that.

-A few lines already have 15 min frequency for some or all of offpeak eg Airport, Ferny Grove, Cannon Hill, Coopers Plains etc , so it'll make timetabling a bit of a mess through the inner sections to try and intersperse 20 min services.

-I think talk of having 20 min  frequency before CRR is probably foam. Timetable changes are always a massive undertaking. We are in 2024 and CRR opens in 2026.
I just don't see QR/TL spending money implementing it, keeping it for 18 months, then chucking it in the bin and redoing it again when CRR is commissioned.

@Verbatim9 keeps mentioning Beenleigh line improvements being in place before CRR opens in 2026.
The design isn't even finished! They haven't turned the first sod of soil.
They're not going to have these improvements built in 24 months i can tell you that now, I'd estimate the works won't be done until about late 2027.

Quote from: Arnz on January 03, 2024, 10:05:44 AM

Quote from: joninbrisbane on January 03, 2024, 12:28:28 PMAgree with above.  15 minutes is the gold standard, why bother with '20 minutes or better'

Quote from: verbatim9 on January 02, 2024, 15:56:18 PMYes, hurry up ETCS and Driver Only Operations. So we can then focus on getting more trains on the network to improve frequency to 20 mins or better 7days from 7am - 9 pm across the train and bus network in SE Qld.

Not sure if "We" is the right word to use on a largely opinion post.  I do recall the last time 20 minutes to everywhere was put forward to RBot a majority disagreed and 15 mins was the way to go.

As I've suggested some months back this was brought up, why not start a side group, such as VBOT (or whatever you may call it) where you can advocate for 20 mins to everywhere on your group.  If the likes of say Brizcommuter and the "Translink Ripoff" can do their advocating through their own pages, then it's possible for you to do as well.

15 mins or better is not going to happen and people are in denial of thinking so. Even with CRR in place there won't be enough trains nor sufficient  infrastructure to run trains 15 mins or better across 7 days. Translink have already said that they are not going to improve bi directional frequency to 15 mins or better on the Gold Coast Line.

You would get huge improvements of 3 trains an hour network wide across 7 days rather than ADHOK 15 min frequency here and there on weekdays

It's ok for people on here that have a car I guess as they can get across town no worries. Hence the fear of congestion tolling as well. They want the best two worlds travelling by car and by train even though they wouldn't use it.

Some bus routes are already 20 mins or better and more bus routes can go from 30 mins or better to 20 mins or better from 7am - 9pm 7 days when people need  it.

Why wouldn't there be enough trains to run 15 minute frequency?

The network already runs much better than 15 minute frequency during peak with current rolling stock levels, so what are they doing with all those trains off peak?

Hi v9,

Thanks for your post and I would like to share some thoughts on some points raised. 

20 min service is paying more for little benefit

Melbourne runs 20 minute bus and train services. I have used them myself. I am not sure how the Melbourne 20 minute cycle came about. Someone with more knowledge than myself (perhaps Youtuber taitset) can tell us more about it. When Melbourne upgrades they go from 20 min to 10 min.

My view is that 20 min frequencies entails increased cost for no benefit, the critical threshold is 15 min frequency. That is the 'minimum viable product'. Any worse, you are just operating a coverage service.

20 min cycles require full timetable rewrite, 15 min cycles not

Agree with you that there will likely not be enough trains etc. This is something they can and should fix.

But observe - the other lines on the network are running 15 min during the day and were previously 30 min off-peak (to FG, to Darra, to Murrarie, to Coopers Plains etc).

This is not my personal opinion. Simply, that is what QR did when they did the upgrade.

What is more, the transition from 30 min timetable to 15 min timetable in the off-peak does not require a huge effort. The free slots are already there in the timetable, they just need a service to occupy them.

In contrast, 20 min cycles would require a full rewrite, checking that trains cross in the right places, the whole shebang.

Conclusions

You are right that railways in Queensland are slipping against comparable cities like Perth. This needs to change. Perth is achieving excellent results in some of the most hostile anti-PT environments you can imagine. And the service is excellent, with metro-type frequencies now on parts of the Fremantle line as well.

That is the standard that QLD needs to be reached in the next step.

Quote from: verbatim9 on January 03, 2024, 17:38:59 PM

Quote from: Arnz on January 03, 2024, 10:05:44 AM

Quote from: joninbrisbane on January 03, 2024, 12:28:28 PMAgree with above.  15 minutes is the gold standard, why bother with '20 minutes or better'

Quote from: verbatim9 on January 02, 2024, 15:56:18 PMYes, hurry up ETCS and Driver Only Operations. So we can then focus on getting more trains on the network to improve frequency to 20 mins or better 7days from 7am - 9 pm across the train and bus network in SE Qld.

Not sure if "We" is the right word to use on a largely opinion post.  I do recall the last time 20 minutes to everywhere was put forward to RBot a majority disagreed and 15 mins was the way to go.

As I've suggested some months back this was brought up, why not start a side group, such as VBOT (or whatever you may call it) where you can advocate for 20 mins to everywhere on your group.  If the likes of say Brizcommuter and the "Translink Ripoff" can do their advocating through their own pages, then it's possible for you to do as well.

15 mins or better is not going to happen and people are in denial of thinking so. Even with CRR in place there won't be enough trains nor sufficient  infrastructure to run trains 15 mins or better across 7 days. Translink have already said that they are not going to improve bi directional frequency to 15 mins or better on the Gold Coast Line.

You would get huge improvements of 3 trains an hour network wide across 7 days rather than ADHOK 15 min frequency here and there on weekdays

It's ok for people on here that have a car I guess as they can get across town no worries. Hence the fear of congestion tolling as well. They want the best two worlds travelling by car and by train even though they wouldn't use it.

Some bus routes are already 20 mins or better and more bus routes can go from 30 mins or better to 20 mins or better from 7am - 9pm 7 days when people need  it.

Plenty of people on here has already stated why 15 mins is currently the case and why there are currently issues in your 20 minutes proposals that keeps popping up.

There has also been a case where you've asked for this group to change from "15 minutes" to your "20 minutes to everywhere" and most folks and even the mods and founder said No Thanks.

Considering the mods have clearly stated they will be sticking with 15 minutes as the baseline High Frequency, Why not start a side group (VBOT) and advocate for 20 minutes to everywhere on your page? If you got the support, then people will join your side group if you chose to make one.

I mean if BrizCommuter and The TransLink Ripoff can do lobbying through their own pages, then you can too.

Another point to consider is how the existing parts of the QR network that are already 15 minutes will transition if a hypothetical 20 minute cycle was applied?

Does it mean that 15 min to FG, Murrarie, Darra, Coopers Plains etc goes from 15 minutes during the day to 20 minutes during the day?

That would represent a frequency reduction, particularly for the inner city. So somewhere like Enoggera or Coopers Plains would go from 15 min to 20 min all day?

Quote from: #Metro on January 03, 2024, 18:58:11 PMAnother point to consider is how the existing parts of the QR network that are already 15 minutes will transition if a hypothetical 20 minute cycle was applied?

Does it mean that 15 min to FG, Murrarie, Darra, Coopers Plains etc goes from 15 minutes during the day to 20 minutes during the day?

That would represent a frequency reduction, particularly for the inner city. So somewhere like Enoggera or Coopers Plains would go from 15 min to 20 min all day?

That's right Metro, the 15 mins frequency off peak on these lines would be replaced with 20 mins or better. That means every 20 mins from 9.30am - 3.30 pm and after 7 pm until 9 pm 7 days. I have been on those trains during the day and they are not very well patronised except during peak as well as the school rush. During peak trains could run every 15 mins or every 10 mins which would provide frequency that meets demand.

It's economics of scale with 20 mins or better. Most areas within 15 km of the city will get buses and trains every 10 mins** where there is demand. The outer areas would get an improved service of 20 mins or better which would reflect their needs.

**This is because multiple lines service inner areas before they branch off.

Even the airport line would benefit from 20 mins or better if they can strike right deal with QR? Hopefully, running a bit later as well until 11.30 pm or midnight, as well as an hour earlier in the mornings.

20 min frequencies simply won't work here. As has been highlighted quite a lot. Even the areas that you suggest wouldn't benefit a lot. Demand at Nundah/Toombul/Wooloowin/Albion is enough off peak with lots of services carrying air. If you can't get people onto those trains then you can't boast about the lack of frequency. And the further out you get that's where feeder buses play a big role. Considering the peak hour frequency of feeders between Strathpine-Lawnton are hourly. Translink has previously tried to push for 15 min frequencies but have not been allowed to. This has been a result of rollingstock uncertainty. Not lack of rollingstock. Don't confuse the two. CRR has just made it a bit more tricky with NGR being prioritised for all CRR services. Cleveland-Ferny Grove won't see NGR services with Beenleigh-Ferny Grove not having them in the first place as a means of cutting down on PSA requirements (and not because they can't get around curves or platforms heights or whatever bs people like to make up).

QuoteI have been on those trains during the day and they are not very well patronised except during peak as well as the school rush.

Every 15 mins is not well patronised, but every 20 mins would be?

Sent to all outlets:

PT patronage per capita again demonstrates what is wrong with SEQ PT

5th January 2023

Daniel Bowen, a public transport advocate based in Melbourne, and a spokesperson for the Public Transport Users Association, Victoria (PTUA https://www.ptua.org.au ) recently published a blog article ' PT patronage per capita ' at https://danielbowen.com/2024/01/04/pt-patronage-per-capita/

In the article Daniel shows the fundamental issue with our problematic public transport in SEQ. The SEQ Citytrain network carries far too few passengers.  This is related to poor service frequency out of peak times particularly, and poor support from bus feeder networks.

Boardings per capita for Perth for suburban train is 24.3, Brisbane/SEQ Qld it is 12.7.  Perth is the same gauge suburban network as SEQ, uses similar trains, but the essential difference is that their trains are much more frequent (every 15 minutes out of peak or better, all lines) and they have better feeder bus networks.  For many years we have been highlighting this situation with the lack of frequency for service in SEQ, but little occurs to improve our public transport in terms of service frequency.

A political party/candidates who will commit to service improvement by a specific date will receive support in the 2024 State Election. We are tired of unfilled promises, and the endless plans and business cases that are rarely, if ever implemented.  It is time to improve service frequency of all Citytrain lines and improve the bus feeder networks. 

How much more data needs to be published to show the shambles our PT is really in?



image:  Daniel Bowen https://backontrack.org/docs/Daniel_Bowen/boardingspercapita.jpg from https://danielbowen.com/2024/01/04/pt-patronage-per-capita/




image: Daniel Bowen https://backontrack.org/docs/Daniel_Bowen/boardingspercapitamodes.jpg from https://danielbowen.com/2024/01/04/pt-patronage-per-capita/

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Boardings per capita for Brisbane/SEQ < Adelaide! 

Facebook ...

So Perth is closing in on Melbourne in terms of per capita transit use?

Only about 30 trips per year per person or so separating the two. Will be interesting to see what happens when the full effect of the Airport line plus the Ellenbrook line opens.

Population bases used in Bowen's work:

Perth: 2.19 million
Brisbane-SEQ: 3.61 million

Shortfall Estimation

Knowing this, we can estimate the shortfall of passengers based on the gap between per-capita different trip generation rates.

If Brisbane had the same per-capita use of PT as Perth/TransPerth, we would expect:

3.61 million people x 56.3 trips/pax p.a. = 203.243 million trips p.a. on PT

The shortfall being expected minus actual:

153.3 million p.a. actual - 203.243 expected = 49.943 million trips lost

We can't have a more accurate figure than the least accurate number so that I would round this to 49.9 or 50 million trips p.a.

This is equal to about two to three Mandurah line's worth of patronage.

Lack of 15 min frequency in the off-peak, low PT use in LGAs surrounding Brisbane, and no Direct Sunshine Coast rail line all contributors.

The possibility that we rank close to Adelaide also does not reflect favourably.

Potential Fixes:

- More BUZ routes, + 0.5 to 1 million pax for each BUZ added. Can be funded using a 2-for-1 route swap deal between BCC and Qld Government.

- More off-peak trains. Kippa-Ring, Shorncliffe are the easy ones to add. Perhaps add in Ipswich 15 min off-peak as well. Contrary to perception, most trips appear to happen in the off-peak. To get growth, trips need to shift from car to PT during then.

- Direct Sunshine Coast Line. Needs to be built.

- Lots of mini-projects improving speed & capacity. Small, lower-cost, lower-risk projects like speeding parts of the train network up, track duplication on the Shorncliffe line, Cleveland line duplication etc.

It's always an apples to oranges comparison because "SEQ" is not a city, but being in the same sentence as Adelaide is still pretty grim.

Quote from: verbatim9 on January 02, 2024, 16:05:59 PMI wonder once Beenleigh and Loganlea stations are rebuilt as well as the Trinder Park section straightening if it would support 3 trains per hour bi- directional to the Gold Coast off peak, as well as weekends and public holidays from 7am-9pm?

Even if it did, would it be a good idea to swallow up all the new capacity with GC services? No.
Gold Coast trains may be reasonably popular but that demand is also reasonably static. It's the suburbs that need room to 'grow up'. Once Kuraby has 4tph we can talk - but you'll have no hope overlaying a 20 minute pattern on the shared track at that point...!

Quote from: AnonymouslyBad on January 05, 2024, 23:31:55 PMIt's always an apples to oranges comparison because "SEQ" is not a city, but being in the same sentence as Adelaide is still pretty grim.

Quote from: verbatim9 on January 02, 2024, 16:05:59 PMI wonder once Beenleigh and Loganlea stations are rebuilt as well as the Trinder Park section straightening if it would support 3 trains per hour bi- directional to the Gold Coast off peak, as well as weekends and public holidays from 7am-9pm?

It's the suburbs that need room to 'grow up'. Once Kuraby has 4tph.

That's why it's better to 3 trains an hour bi directional to Loganlea / Beenleigh
and the other three bi direction trains 
per hour to Varsity Lakes and eventually OOL with extra peak services where needed.

Quote from: #Metro on January 05, 2024, 09:12:48 AMSo Perth is closing in on Melbourne in terms of per capita transit use?

Only about 30 trips per year per person or so separating the two. Will be interesting to see what happens when the full effect of the Airport line plus the Ellenbrook line opens.

Population bases used in Bowen's work:

Perth: 2.19 million
Brisbane-SEQ: 3.61 million

Shortfall Estimation

Knowing this, we can estimate the shortfall of passengers based on the gap between per-capita different trip generation rates.

If Brisbane had the same per-capita use of PT as Perth/TransPerth, we would expect:

3.61 million people x 56.3 trips/pax p.a. = 203.243 million trips p.a. on PT

The shortfall being expected minus actual:

153.3 million p.a. actual - 203.243 expected = 49.943 million trips lost

We can't have a more accurate figure than the least accurate number so that I would round this to 49.9 or 50 million trips p.a.

This is equal to about two to three Mandurah line's worth of patronage.

Lack of 15 min frequency in the off-peak, low PT use in LGAs surrounding Brisbane, and no Direct Sunshine Coast rail line all contributors.

The possibility that we rank close to Adelaide also does not reflect favourably.

Potential Fixes:

- More BUZ routes, + 0.5 to 1 million pax for each BUZ added. Can be funded using a 2-for-1 route swap deal between BCC and Qld Government.

- More off-peak trains. Kippa-Ring, Shorncliffe are the easy ones to add. Perhaps add in Ipswich 15 min off-peak as well. Contrary to perception, most trips appear to happen in the off-peak. To get growth, trips need to shift from car to PT during then.

- Direct Sunshine Coast Line. Needs to be built.

- Lots of mini-projects improving speed & capacity. Small, lower-cost, lower-risk projects like speeding parts of the train network up, track duplication on the Shorncliffe line, Cleveland line duplication etc.

The Sandringham Line which is 20 mins or better and has higher density than any other urban areas of Brisbane does quite fine.

Beenleigh and Gold Coast services are via CRR to Caboolture/Nambour/Kippa Ring. Any discussion for 20 minute frequency is a moot point. Trying to cover off 3 car running for it is also a mute point as these lines will also be fixed 6 car rollingstock of the NGR/QTMP only. Post CRR Ipswich off peak you can easily bump the frequency to 4tph with 3 car trains running express Darra-City as demand isn't that high (most patronage is Darra inbound. Gets tricky around peak as Springfield patronage jumps onto the Ipswich trains and passengers then transfer at Darra but you can sort that out by simply rejoining rollingstock at the terminus as was previously done ie outbound 3 car becomes inbound 6 car). You can also do this on other lines depending on its stopping pattern but doing so does significantly reduce network redundancy's, has problems with network issues and increases operational work (shunting/splitting/joining etc but not the end of the world - real issue is rollingstock uncertainty and how that impacts your operations with retirements of emus, refurbs of the imu/smu fleet, NGR rectification work, NGR ETCS work, network sectorisation and QTMP delivery). Gold coast is also a corridor that has been flagged as reduced frequency for longer rollingstock in peak hour ie Gold Coast going to 9 car trains on a reduced peak frequency allowing higher capacity per train but also allowing for more infill/short express services - we see this on the NCL where Redcliffe has a higher frequency and carries the bulk of the patronage Lawnton-Virginia in peak vs Caboolture/Nambour running but also think of the running patterns as the old Gympie exp/Caboolture exp/petrie exp/strathpine exp etc. Ah miss the old Strathpine EMU express. Express Bowen Hills to
Northgate then express Northgate to Strathpine (there was also a Geebung express pattern - reduced overall capacity and made peak confusing if there were delays not knowing if the Caboolture/Petrie train was actually going to stop at your station but oh boy didn't it make for a bloody fast trip ).

You cannot view this attachment.
Source: https://danielbowen.com/2024/01/04/pt-patronage-per-capita/

Some interesting things about this table.

Perth Per-Capita Rail Boardings similar to Melbourne

Some discussion previously on how Perth's DOT (development-oriented transit) approach is a 'failure' because they chose not to rely on a TOD approach and they should have just copied, say, Melbourne (whatever that means).

But this is just rhetoric IMO. If you break down the per-capita trips you will see that the Perth's per-capita rail usage is not too different to Melbourne's.

Melbourne has 31.2 rail boardings/pax/year and Perth has 24.3 boardings/pax/year. That's only about 7 trips per person, per year difference, or 77% of the Melbourne figure. And Perth's per-capita rail usage is about 2x what SEQ's is, and almost 3x what Adelaide's is. Both cities are comparable to Perth.

Once the Transperth Morley-Ellenbrook line comes online, that gap in per-capita rail boardings vs Melbourne is likely to close entirely.

Bus boardings similar to SEQ. So the large per-capita figure for Melbourne is really coming from the tram network.*

So if there is some sort of 'failure' it isn't on the Perth commuter rail network. The numbers simply do not support that view.



Notes
* The WA PTA is actively working on a solution for that too - trackless trams across Perth and 'mid-tier' transit. See https://www.metronet.wa.gov.au/projects/mid-tier-transport-planning

But you also have the trip generator. Which applies to and affects all networks.

You also have to remember Translink now relies on GoCard and ticketing data for trains. There are no longer any manual counting and that manual counting no longer accounts for any discrepancies with gocard data. It also no longer formally identifies fare evasion. As I've highlighted quite a lot. Covid has only shifted this as work becomes more flexible. Its easy to compare overall numbers but you have to dig into the nitty gritty to see why and where the numbers are.

Quote from: #Metro on January 06, 2024, 08:43:28 AMYou cannot view this attachment.
Source: https://danielbowen.com/2024/01/04/pt-patronage-per-capita/

Some interesting things about this table.

Perth Per-Capita Rail Boardings similar to Melbourne

Some discussion previously on how Perth's DOT (development-oriented transit) approach is a 'failure' because they chose not to rely on a TOD approach and they should have just copied, say, Melbourne (whatever that means).

But this is just rhetoric IMO. If you break down the per-capita trips you will see that the Perth's per-capita rail usage is not too different to Melbourne's.

Melbourne has 31.2 rail boardings/pax/year and Perth has 24.3 boardings/pax/year. That's only about 7 trips per person, per year, or 77% of the Melbourne figure. And Perth's per-capita rail usage is about 2x what SEQ's is, and almost 3x what Adelaide's is. Both cities are comparable to Perth.

Once the Transperth Morley-Ellenbrook line comes online, that gap in per-capita rail boardings vs Melbourne is likely to close entirely.

Bus boardings similar to SEQ. So the large per-capita figure for Melbourne is really coming from the tram network.*

So if there is some sort of 'failure' it isn't on the Perth commuter rail network. The numbers simply do not support that view.



Notes
* The WA PTA is actively working on a solution for that too - trackless trams across Perth and 'mid-tier' transit. See https://www.metronet.wa.gov.au/projects/mid-tier-transport-planning

But as we have pointed out endlessly it seems, it fails on a whole range of other factors no doubt one being the cost of building and maintaining the car-oriented development...one factor amongst many impacts.

QuoteBut as we have pointed out endlessly it seems, it fails on a whole range of other factors no doubt one being the cost of building and maintaining the car-oriented development...one factor amongst many impacts.

If Perth had not done the things it has done, its numbers would look closer to Adelaide's.

No doubt about it. Or it might not even have a rail network, at all.

Perth is a low-density city. Low-density cities exist.

Quote from: #Metro on January 06, 2024, 10:01:05 AM

QuoteBut as we have pointed out endlessly it seems, it fails on a whole range of other factors no doubt one being the cost of building and maintaining the car-oriented development...one factor amongst many impacts.

If Perth had not done the things it has done, its numbers would look closer to Adelaide's.

No doubt about it. Or it might not even have a rail network, at all.

Perth is a low-density city. Low-density cities exist.

Again...they shouldn't. 

Politician made problem.

Just as are the freeways!!!

Quote from: JonnoAgain...they shouldn't.

Politician made problem.

Just as are the freeways!!!

Agree Jonno. But they were democratically elected governments. You get what you voted for (or what your parents voted for).

There is a big unmet need for strategies that work in low-density cities.

Necessary when your densities don't even support walk-up for a train station, and have trouble supporting basic bus services (7 persons/ha).

Quote from: ozbob on January 14, 2024, 13:05:51 PMBrisbanetimes --> Brisbane on track for change with 'strategic removal' of level crossings $

QuoteMellish said Brisbane's Cross River Rail project would add trains to the network, and unless level crossings were removed, they would affect traffic congestion.

"As Cross River Rail starts up, as more trains are on our network, that will need more time down at boom gates where there are level crossings," he said.

Yep, can't have improved frequency with boom gates constantly down, unfortunately

Boom gates constantly down on 15 min frequency? Get off it.
Perth, among many, many, many cities around the world do this and more every day of the week.
Armadale line for example has been running 15min all stoppers to Thornlie and 15min express Armadale services for years with level crossings.
Hell, even here there are ample examples of 15min frequency services with level crossings - Ferny Grove line is littered with them!! Sherwood, Northern line (Cab+Kippa trains), Beenleigh line (Beenleigh+GC trains). Its really not that difficult.

Boom gates? Here we go again.

^^We can now ignore the foam

It does cause traffic concerns. Any full time bi directional  frequency improvements will cause issues. It's now been stated by the government. The RACQ has also expressed concerns as well.

The only foam is coming from you. You clearly don't know the network setup and crosses. It's actually better than it was pre 2010 and 2012 with the Strathpine, Zillmere, geebung express trains and im sure you were aware of the pre 2016 anti peak congestion backing up from Lawnton-Zillmere. Bet it also doesn't help when the council and state government have induced congestion in the area. Funny that. Improve rat running and suddenly congestion becomes an issue. Want to talk about how BCC have modified light timings to speed up rat running? How about council replacing stop signs with giveway signs? Or how these mods then created other congestion resulting in crashes which brought in new intersection upgrades which only rerouted traffic elsewhere? And the local MP is just trying to make himself seem like he knows what he's talking about - because he's the local member. For example he claimed parking on the footpath has only recently become dangerous completely ignoring the fact that people have been doing it for well over a decade. QR/BCC even installed barriers to prevent people parking on the eastern side footpath. Lots of cars were written off in the 2015 floods there because they parked next to the footpath (oh you didn't know the station floods? Well you do now). Let's mention the real problems rather than tiptoeing and foaming over what politicians say for brownie points. If you are going to blame signalling, bidi running and 12tph then you bloody better know what the hell you are talking about or hope that people don't call you out on your BS.

Literally nobody thinks that you cant do 4tph with LXs

And besides, what's the idea? We don't implement 4tph for at least 10-15 years till more have been removed?

Quote from: Gazza on January 14, 2024, 16:40:24 PMLiterally nobody thinks that you cant do 4tph with LXs

And besides, what's the idea? We don't implement 4tph for at least 10-15 years till more have been removed?

Agree LX removal (assuming it is replaced by with road -not all should) will improve congestion temporarily until people chance their travel behaviour to congest road again.

LX is about safety and minimizing disruption to rail service, allowing minimal headways and even automated trains once all removed...maybe

^^Yes, a pathway to automation is the ideal situation and we all hope the government, TMR and QR are working towards such a goal in the background.

There are many combination of factors why all day 15 min frequency across 7 days hasn't been realised.

Boomgates and traffic disruption is just one of them.

20 min frequency for trains off peak across 7 days is easier to implement considering the current situation.

That still doesn't make sense.

Trains already operate at much higher frequency in peak hour.

Peak hour is also when traffic congestion is at it's worst anyway.

So if we can put up with boom gate closures when it's like 10 tph, why do we care about 4tph being a problem in the daytime when road traffic is quieter.

This is all just a stupid distraction.

Thoughts ozbob?

What a crock of sh%t. Sorry to be frank but what crap. Last time I checked Carseldine has give or take 22-24tph revenue movements between 7-8am (Kippa Ring-City, Caboolture/Nambour-City, City-Caboolture/Nambour, City-Kippa Ring) not including the dead running movements which I think is another 6tph. Dead runners are slowed via signalling to time crosses with revenue services and minimise downtime. Same with express. Normally the all stopper trips the level crossing in advance allowing the express to maintain 100kph running and either it will depart just before or after the express runs past.

So please. Tell us what you know that we don't know. And how does your 20 minute window account for freight and traveltrains?

Quote from: Gazza on January 15, 2024, 07:36:08 AMThat still doesn't make sense.

Trains already operate at much higher frequency in peak hour.

Peak hour is also when traffic congestion is at it's worst anyway.

So if we can put up with boom gate closures when it's like 10 tph, why do we care about 4tph being a problem in the daytime when road traffic is quieter.

This is all just a stupid distraction.

Thoughts ozbob?

The greatest impact of LXs is obviously in peak, and peak shoulders, and it was that what really drove the LX removal program in Melbourne.  Plenty of other reasons of course including safety, operational flexibility of the rail operator:

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Victoria Big Build
https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/level-crossing-removal-project/benefits

Some of the core benefits that come from removing a level crossing are:

. improving safety by removing the danger of trains sharing a crossing with vehicles and other users
. reducing congestion by eliminating frustrating delays caused by boom gates and allowing more vehicles to pass through
. improving travel time reliability by removing uncertainty around when boom gate closures will occur and how long they will be down for
. increasing capacity to run more trains on the network, without boom gates delaying vehicles and other users.

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Daniel Bowen: Benefits to non-motorists from level crossing removals
https://danielbowen.com/2015/12/15/grade-separation-benefits/