RAIL - Back On Track Forum

We need the negotiations to restart with UQ to allow both metro and bus services to run from Indooroopilly via UQ to the east as well as back through to the city via the Gabba. This will improve crosstown trips tremendously and hopefully convert people to PT as it will save them time. If it's quicker and direct with minimal walking door to door they will likely take it up.

Plus it could be a lifesaver for the overall Olympic Public transport plan.

So I spent some time in Perth earlier this year. Their version of our GCL, the 998/999 runs at double the frequency and gets decent patronage. Service also runs on Sunday, unlike Brisbane.

All of that is achieved in a low density, high car use context.

The other thing is you can always run a trial for 6-12 months. Try it and see, trials have been run many times before, such as boosted UQ lakes services, Nightlink buses, and 15-min frequent trains on the FG line.

All of these started as trials, so its well worth considering.

Quote from: #Metro on December 12, 2023, 19:04:33 PMSo I spent some time in Perth earlier this year. Their version of our GCL, the 998/999 runs at double the frequency and gets decent patronage. Service also runs on Sunday, unlike Brisbane.

All of that is achieved in a low density, high car use context.

Unsurprising. It services three universities for a start, which are usually large trip generators. Brisbane GCL services zero.

Other than a few shopping centres, the GCL largely services low-density suburbia.

GCL really needs to be split up and frequencies in the high-demand sectors increased (e.g. Upper Mt Gravatt to Cannon Hill).

QuoteThey already operate the 598 in a segmented style. It's not one bus that loops around all day.

Correct, but the thing is, how do you promote to the public that only bits and pieces of the 598 are improved.

QuoteThe Greens proposal is rubbish between Enoggera and Indooroopilly as it's just a carbon copy of the 598 between those two points.

Not quite.

598 goes via Stuartholme Rd and the Botanic gardens, the Greens proposal goes via Boundary Rd past Rainworth School.

Initially I didn't notice this  .  What they should have done is kept it more north south on Metroad 5.

Can we swap TransLinks!!

I have posted something similar a fews years back regarding removing unnecessary bus stops.

Brisbane is not too bad but could be better.

Saying that I would like them get rid of the Valley Island stop. In place of that build a premium stop on Warner Street as well as Ann Street before Warner Street for the Glider and other Northern Services.

This would be the main 2 stops for the Valley, improving traffic flow for vehicles as well as buses. Thus allowing buses to remain on the left side of the Ann Street, speeding up travel times as well as improving safety.

There are also three bus stops with in the proximity of All Hallows which can be consolidated into one premium stop

The stops that need to be consolidated are 218, 219, and 220.

Once they make these bus stop changes you could essentially have a bus only lane from Warner Street running all the way to the city on the left hand side of Ann Street with priority signalling.

Quote from: Jonno on December 22, 2023, 10:08:49 AMCan we swap TransLinks!!

Why do you hate the residents of Vancouver, Jonno?

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on December 11, 2023, 08:25:01 AMNo offence but it's a pretty sh%t proposal for the Northside. Just slap some lines on a map and you have a HF Network doesn't work. It might help get some votes from those oblivious voters but it's an empty deal. I am a MBCC resident so don't say I'm biased. Some of those HF routes are just downright stupid and just scream "look how much money we can also waste" all because it ticks some boxes. Why catch a HF bus a couple stops to Northgate/nundah/virginia/banyo when you will get slugged extra due to the network fare zone? That's part of the current issue why bus patronage is so low in the area, why fare evasion is so high Northgate-Nudgee and Northgate-Geebung but more importantly why people prefer to drive a short distance. $300-$500 a year is a good incentive not to use buses or fare evade.

I actually dont think this is as a bigger issue as was made out.
Here is a GIS map of fare zones of the northside courtesy of https://henrus1.com/maps/seqzones/



The map is focsed on the whole northside of Brisbane, and the tiny circled area is where you have a discrepancy between the bus and rail zone. You simply cant argue its not worth pursuing bus improvements because of that tiny little oddity around Toombul and Northgate, but dont let it get in the way of a good rant 

Yes it's a small oddity in terms of its geographical size but it's one that causes significant problems of varying degrees across various modes, network design, frequencies and station park and ride issues including expansion. And yes the area in red is the zone issue but it's not the impacted area. That can be extended as far as carseldine and to Nudgee.

Northgate has 380 parking spaces*, and there is an unfunded proposal for a further 350 spaces.
There would be people parking on the street too, but its an industrial area so that will happen regardless.

So yeah, a few hundred people in the entire area between Carseldine and Nudgee might change their behavior and drive to Northgate. The Northside has a population in the hundreds of thousands.

Why are you trying to say bus improvements will fail because a few hundred people park at Northgate?

Particular targeted bus improvements in selected ares yes.

But as I said it's enabling multiple different sets of circumstances that impacts multiple different areas.

The zonal flaw enables data skewing impacting the viability of frequencies or coverage. Stations are having propped up numbers (why does an industrial area, land locked car park surrounded station have higher patronage numbers than some of the most heavily densified rail stations in seq). Stations have lower numbers questioning the viability of frequency increases. The zonal flaw impacts the reliability and usability of the translink journey planner because of the fare difference often advising to walk places rather than interchanging or displaying a bus service (last time I checked the default settings advised to walk 550m from Nundah village to Toombul interchange to catch the 310 to RBWH and didn't even display the 326 interchange option that takes a couple minutes from Nundah-Toombul and then a 5 minute wait (walk + 310 zone 1/326+310 2 zone). Due to the fare difference it doesn't incentivise people to interchange or use public transport regularly depending on the network design. 

All rail data is now gocard/ticket machined based and has been before covid. There are no more physical passenger counters to compare data during peak. So fare evasion and network flaws play big parts in reliable network data. Also makes you question everytime you hear a media release about fare evasion $$$ what actually they are basing that estimated dollar figure on.

For example. Let's say 30 people each day board at Banyo at peak but tag on at Northgate. This happens quite frequently due to the high frequency and limited options for fare prevention. That's 300 extra weekly trips that Northgate has. Add in nudgee, Virginia, sunshine and Geebung. That's 1500 extra weekly peak trips. And that's if they are going to a gated station. Milton is just absolutely rife with fare evasion. Yes you also get people further out playing this game aswell. And yes there are other stations out there that also has this but due to the poor gocard layout (on the northern stations) this is not really a suitable option. At Bowen hills due to the narrow stairs causing a bottleneck and the location of the small amount of readers you have to wait or walk a bit to get to the readers. Eagle junction you don't see it too much as you have most trains coming from zone 1 areas and you loose the express running - while mains run express south of Eagle junction the inbound subs have a higher track speed which cancels out the effectiveness with the saving grace normally being congestion on the subs stopping them north of Bowen hills. Northgate has plenty of readers on platform level and a high frequency so those coming off the shorncliffe line can swap as too can the Caboolture/Kippa Ring services. Given their dwell and gocard locations you can watch people get off, tap on and then board the next carriage.

It shouldn't be something difficult to resolve but no one wants to touch it if you have to tell everyone hey you're about to spend a few extra hundred bucks a year.

And for the record small bus fixes such as extending the P332 to reduce Chermside interchange congestion or some suburban scenic tour buses isn't the solution for the Northside. The network is fundamentally flawed and needs a total rewrite. Too many services over there and not enough over here. For the Northside the original translink review has been the best proposed network to date (that includes the ones proposed by members here) as it offered for the Northside increased coverage and multiple forms of redundancy between rail and bus should one of those networks be impacted from crashes, derailments, sinkholes, strikes or rollingstock issues such as exploding gas tanks or mouldy air conditioning units.

I'm sure some of the Northgate patronage would be due to express services as well. One only has to look at the patronage difference between Kingston (where the car park is never full) and Loganlea (where it's chockers by 7 am on weekdays) to see that P&R commuters love expresses.

Quote(why does an industrial area, land locked car park surrounded station have higher patronage numbers than some of the most heavily densified rail stations in seq)

Because its on the express pattern.

Same thing happens at Petrie
Kallangur 150k pax
Petrie 350k pax
Dakabin 170k pax


Or Darra (Which is also fairly industrial)

Darra 411k pax
Oxley 312k pax
Richlands 411k pax
Wacol 107k pax

Archuriel is correct too

Loganlea 400k pax
Kingston 75k

Beenleigh 382k
Holmview 12k

For comparison, Yeerongpilly is probably the most "TOD" station on the line and gets 130k.

But again why is this actually a major factor in the scheme of things? Yeah cool some people can game the system by driving to an express stop, but there is an upper limit to this because the car park is only so big.

The greens plan you poo pooed was a bit more focused on non CBD trips with cross town routes, in which case, parking and riding for a CBD bound train isnt even the same market.
Also, what about people coming from the other way, eg you have caught a train TO the northside, and now need to get a bus to somewhere away from the rail line. In that case, the zonal boundary makes no difference because its not like you have a car waiting for you at Northgate, and depending on where you boarded, you might have started in zone 2 on the other side anyhow.

QuoteThere are no more physical passenger counters

There are people counters above the doors on NGRs at least:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Queensland_Rail_New_Generation_Rollingstock_%28NGR%29_interior,_2021,_04.jpg