RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: timh on June 30, 2020, 12:55:16 PM

Quote from: JimmyP on June 30, 2020, 12:47:53 PM
Why does Queensland/Australia insist on busways that have massive, expensive rail-style stations etc?
Take a look at the busways around Almere, Netherlands for an example. The busways are literally bus-only roads with normal bus stops and shelters. It's really all that is needed in most cases outside the city area where extra infrastructure like tunnels etc are required. So much simpler, easier and a hell of a lot cheaper!

Because of the reasons I said above. Essentially they SHOULD be treated like rail-style stations. The better facilities and increased visibility are part of creating the appeal to the passenger to get them to use it. The larger infrastructure also allows them to more easily brand and run these "metro" branded services with bi-artics etc.

Basically our busways are like mini-railways, and I think its for the better. The construction cost at the outlay may be more expensive but I think that you get very good passenger outcomes. There are other cities that have similar networks to ours, like Xiamen in China or Bogota in Colombia

Except the massive outlay for the busway stations and related infrastructure where it isn't required could fund a significant amount of higher frequency buses for years, improving the network significantly more than the grandoise monuments to waste that have been built at many current busway stations. More routes to more places with higher frequency will do a better job of building patronage vs an overbuilt busway station!

QuoteThe question is, why is the type of station mode specific? Why do heavy rail stations need such big structures?

Other than the obvious required infrastructure (high platforms etc to reach the train), they don't need to be overbuilt either, but I don't think most recent stations have really been very overbuilt to be honest. Stations like Richlands and Springfield are fairly basic, just longer shelters than one would need for a busway etc., simply due to the length of the vehicle.

Both of these transitways are a waste of money in their current form.  As a driver who is likely to use the Northern one, the part time aspect is asinine. It is busier on Gympie Rd at lunchtime on Saturday than on a weekday.  It's literally taken me 20 mins on a 330 from RBWH to Chermside on a Saturday which is comparable with M-F afternoon peak.

The Eastern one is spending money for pretty much no benefit.

They need to bite the bullet and put in busways to at least Carindale and Chermside.  It would revolutionise travel.  Even at 50-60 km/h, a non-stop journey on a busway from Chermside to RBWH would be around 12 -13 mins in my estimation (assuming that it doesn't go via Prince Charles Hosp.  I would prefer a spur from Chermside like the Gabba myself).  This is comparable to an off peak 330 and would save up to 10 mins in peak hour.  Spending millions on a few gutters and paint that will have little or no effect is literally p%ssing money up a wall.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that the natural replacement for the busways is something basically like North American style light-rail - Calgary C-Train or similar.  Multiple unit capable, high-level platforms, capable of short stretches of street running in the CBD.  There are some potential issues with clearances in the CBD obviously but that depends on the traction system.

You'd be able to run 3 routes once "full" busways are constructed:
- Bracken Ridge to UQ Lakes (via Carseldine, Aspley, Chermside, Kedron Brook etc to KGS, then through to Mater Hill, PAH etc)
- Capalaba to UQ Lakes (via proposed full busway alignment to Buranda, then PAH etc)
- RBWH to Springwood

Then you can worry about a fast Gold Coast line that only takes in Loganholme and Springwood, then expresses all the way to Boggo Road via the fastest possible route.  Nothing in this stops Brisbane CBD to Gold Coast HSR either.

Quote from: SurfRail on July 01, 2020, 09:43:41 AM
I'm increasingly of the opinion that the natural replacement for the busways is something basically like North American style light-rail - Calgary C-Train or similar.  Multiple unit capable, high-level platforms, capable of short stretches of street running in the CBD.  There are some potential issues with clearances in the CBD obviously but that depends on the traction system.

You'd be able to run 3 routes once "full" busways are constructed:
- Bracken Ridge to UQ Lakes (via Carseldine, Aspley, Chermside, Kedron Brook etc to KGS, then through to Mater Hill, PAH etc)
- Capalaba to UQ Lakes (via proposed full busway alignment to Buranda, then PAH etc)
- RBWH to Springwood

Then you can worry about a fast Gold Coast line that only takes in Loganholme and Springwood, then expresses all the way to Boggo Road via the fastest possible route.  Nothing in this stops Brisbane CBD to Gold Coast HSR either.

I'd agree with you, although if light rail conversions do end up being prohibitively expensive I'd be happy with an electric bus compromise much like we are seeing now, albeit with some minor changes (level boarding platforms, fare gates, PSDs, maybe even tri or quad artics)

My "fantasy" outcome for the routes is slightly different too.

Route 1: Roma Street - Springwood
Route 2: RBWH - UQ Lakes
Route 3: Bracken Ridge - Woolloongabba
Route 4: Capalaba - UQ Lakes

What route are you envisioning when you are talking about the fast gold coast line? I'm assuming you're talking about a rail line running on the M1 corridor? If so yeah stations at Springwood and Hyperdome would be good. I might add a station at Slacks Creek park and ride also.


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^ Having that many routes through the core would increase complexity and reduce the frequency available on the branches.  The way I had envisioned it, you have no more than 2 routes passing through any one station.  The City-UQ pairing also cuts down on unnecessary interchanging for trips between the 2 biggest individual trip generators in Brisbane.  Also, having the overlap between the 2 north-south routes so they turn back at RBWH and UQ Lakes means there is plenty of counter-peak capacity to get people out of UQ/PAH/QUT/RBWH etc who might be travelling inbound.

The Gabba I wouldn't bother with since any tracked vehicles are not going any further from there.  The proper solution is to convert it to an in-line station so the 2 services that serve South Bank don't have to divert away to serve it.  This should have been done by now even for buses.

For the Gold Coast - elevated from Yatala to Springwood, then elevated from there to Greenslopes, dive into the M1 median along the straight there, then tunnel to Boggo Road.  Arguable if you even need a Garden City stop under this arrangement (it would be very expensive there), and you certainly wouldn't have a stop between Loganholme and Springwood (both of these locations you could put an elevated station in without upsetting the applecart too much).

I'm not going to be as explicitly harsh as some others here - they do mention that this is Stage 1, and with further consultation stages likely to be rolled out later on, I'll wait to see what is proposed down towards Coorparoo & Carina before slamming the project. The Minister responsible is squeezing politics into every inch of infrastructure delivery at the moment, right down to the dates contracts are being signed, so it doesn't surprise me one intersection has gone out to public consultation.

When you look at it, the biggest benefits from this upgrade are actually going to be pedestrians and cyclists, as all the left turn slip lanes are being signalised and being made less scary, not to mention the new path running along OCR between Creek Road and Narracott Street.

Bus benefits in this area are practically nil, it was always going to be a bunch of paint for the ~$70m price tag, but it's disappointing to see such a piecemeal approach taken.

Of course, it's a disgrace this is what we get while they're spending ~$760m on the M1 between EMP and Loganlea Road, but can't spare $100m to do a proper station with flyover at Carindale, but that's another story...

Quote from: SurfRail on July 01, 2020, 17:28:32 PM
^ Having that many routes through the core would increase complexity and reduce the frequency available on the branches.  The way I had envisioned it, you have no more than 2 routes passing through any one station.  The City-UQ pairing also cuts down on unnecessary interchanging for trips between the 2 biggest individual trip generators in Brisbane.  Also, having the overlap between the 2 north-south routes so they turn back at RBWH and UQ Lakes means there is plenty of counter-peak capacity to get people out of UQ/PAH/QUT/RBWH etc who might be travelling inbound.

The Gabba I wouldn't bother with since any tracked vehicles are not going any further from there.  The proper solution is to convert it to an in-line station so the 2 services that serve South Bank don't have to divert away to serve it.  This should have been done by now even for buses.

For the Gold Coast - elevated from Yatala to Springwood, then elevated from there to Greenslopes, dive into the M1 median along the straight there, then tunnel to Boggo Road.  Arguable if you even need a Garden City stop under this arrangement (it would be very expensive there), and you certainly wouldn't have a stop between Loganholme and Springwood (both of these locations you could put an elevated station in without upsetting the applecart too much).

Had a proper read of your post and think about the routes. You're right the way you've got it no more than 2 routes serve any station. Your logic works well, I think that would work well as a network . Only thing is still yeah, that lack of Gabba station. Since the infrastructure is already there itd be nice to connect it. I don't know how you'd go about converting it to an inline station though.

Regarding GC fast rail, I had an idea for an alternative where you dive into a tunnel at Springwood then branch east into a tunnel that emerges just north of Compton road and re-joins the existing line south of Kuraby. If everything up from Kuraby was quad that could work as a potentially cheaper alternative than continuing the new alignment through to the city. I'd still median run from Springwood-Yatala.

Some of the worst parts of the Beenleigh line are inbound of Kuraby, so joining back there is fairly pointless. Best to do the whole lot and be done with it IMO.

https://twitter.com/TransLinkSEQ/status/1281095652965941249

Interesting question in the online feedback survey.

Can't recall exact wording but it was something to the effect of "Do you support removing on street car parking for future stages of the Eastern transit way?"

Learning from the Northern transit way. Might explain why Stage 1 is such a small section?

Quote from: Golliwog on July 10, 2020, 09:09:37 AM
Interesting question in the online feedback survey.

Can't recall exact wording but it was something to the effect of "Do you support removing on street car parking for future stages of the Eastern transit way?"

Learning from the Northern transit way. Might explain why Stage 1 is such a small section?

That was it but absolutely no attempt to educate the people as to why a bus lane is better for all than some car parking! It is almost making sure they get the answer  of" people don't support parking removal"

^ Yep. It's one of those questions basically everybody is going to tick no. When it actually happens, though, few people will care; they just need the fortitude to actually do it.

Stage 1 of the Eastern Transitway is now under construction. Works are currently at the corner of Old Cleveland Road and Creek Road with earthworks currently occuring beside the commuter carpark.

Couriermail --> Work starts soon on controversial Brisbane transitway $

Quote... A DTMR spokesman said work would begin next month and run until early next year, weather and construction conditions permitting.

Once the project was complete, the bus lanes would operate in both directions during weekday peak periods.

"For the safety of the work crew, and to minimise impacts on the road network, most works will occur at night,'' he said.

"Final traffic control and construction arrangements will be made in accordance with relevant standards.

"We will endeavour to reduce disruptions to traffic and minimise impacts to the local community.'' ...

DTMR > https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/Northern-Transitway

Couriermail Quest --> How much does a 'lick of paint' cost? Bus lane's $19m blowout $

QuoteThe cost of the controversial northern Transitway bus lane along Gympie Rd in Chermside has blown out from $53 million to $72 million in less than two years.

Marchant Ward Councillor Fiona Hammond called on the State Government to explain why the price of its "diabolical Band-Aid busway'' had ballooned so much.

"This so-called solution really only involves commandeering hundreds of on-street car parks and loading bays to create a dedicated bus lane, which will have a devastating impact on businesses and deliver negligible benefits for commuters and motorists,'' Cr Hammond said.

"Surely, the price of paint hasn't risen that much to cause this $19 million cost hike?''

Department of Transport and Main Roads (DTMR) officials defended the price rise, quietly revealed to stakeholders in emails sent out on April 29. ...

https://twitter.com/TransLinkSEQ/status/1397760573236940804

What a giant fuking waste of money! Weekday peak hours only—do you see cars driving on the SEB, EB, or INB outside of peak? No? Then WHY have them on the Northern Transitway???

And how long has it taken since it's perception in 2016? In NSW they have managed to build a LRT system from the City to Randwick in less time.

^ yo Guys.  More half baked crap sadly ...

It's a bit rich for this painting of a bus lane to be called "construction".

For those who want busway on Old Cleveland Road "because it's cheaper" beware. This is very much what you are likely to get - an absolute 'do minimum' arrangement.

On the upside, once a Class A solution with exclusive right of way is established they can change the colours of the lane to green and keep it for bikes and scooters.

Transit ways can work well.  The point being it really has to be 24 hour operation.  This part-time Northern Transit way is sad ...

Transit ways can be effective but in Brisbane BCC generally gets them deleted eventually.

For the Old Cleveland Road alignment they can only be a temporary thing... hopefully converted to bike and scooters use after.

Quote from: #Metro on May 30, 2021, 05:47:44 AM
Transit ways can be effective but in Brisbane BCC generally gets them deleted eventually.

For the Old Cleveland Road alignment they can only be a temporary thing... hopefully converted to bike and scooters use after.

OCR could be a problem but Gympie Rd is State-controlled, so realistically BCC can't do anything about it.

If you read the article that Bob posted on May 9th, you'll recall that a fair whack of the Northern Transitway project cost is in road surface upgrade and especially in relocating a number of utilities that are presently under the roadway.

Paint and signs are still cheap, it's everything else that's been folded in that costs.

  bus priority lanes.......dare to dream!

Hopefully operations of the transitway can be extended over time. There is no law set in stone stating that they cannot extend operational hours of the transitway after opening.

Queensland Parliament

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2022/518-2022.pdf

Question on Notice
No. 535
Asked on 25 May 2022

MR S MINNIKIN ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS (HON M BAILEY)

QUESTION:

With reference to the Eastern Transitway between Carindale and Coorparoo—
Will the Minister advise the extent, timing and budget for stage 2 of the project?

ANSWER:

I thank the Member for Chatsworth for the question.

The Queensland Government is investing in the delivery of the Eastern Transitway to provide
on-road, targeted bus priority measures as the next step in providing a high-quality public
transport corridor along Old Cleveland Road from Coorparoo to Carindale. These bus priority
measures are aimed at improving bus service reliability and travel times in peak periods, which
will assist in managing congestion along this important transport corridor.

To reduce impacts to the community during construction, the project is being delivered in stages.
The $30 million Stage 1, from the Creek Road intersection extending to Narracott Street in
Carindale, is under construction and nearing completion. Design for further stages is currently in
progress and the community will be further consulted once the draft design is complete. Timing
and costs for the design and delivery are still to be confirmed. Noting further consideration is
required following Queensland's successful bid for the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games,
with events venues set to be located along the corridor.

As Old Cleveland Road is a Brisbane City Council (BCC) controlled road, the Department of
Transport and Main Roads (TMR) is working closely with BCC during the design and delivery
phases of this project to gain its approval. TMR will continue to monitor demand for passenger
transport along the Old Cleveland Road corridor between Brisbane and Redlands. This
information will ensure any future planning and investment is focussed where it is most
appropriate.

The Palaszczuk Government is delivering its sixth record transport and roads infrastructure
program in a row, outlining $29.7 billion in investment over the next four years and estimated to
support an average of 25,200 direct jobs over the life of the program. Of this, $3.858 billion is
committed across TMR's Metropolitan Region, which is estimated to support an average of 3280
direct jobs over the life of the program.

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/eastern-transitway

QuoteEastern Transitway Stage 1 is now in operation on Old Cleveland Road, between Narracott Street and Carindale Street.

Project finalisation and minor works are expected to be completed in late 2022, weather and construction conditions permitting.

Stage 1, all couple hundred metres of it, is now in operation. I wonder if that means the absurd P217 outbound timetable between Carina and Carindale will be reduced from 20+ mins to something a bit more realistic?

How is the Northern Transitway progressing? Suppsed to be finished early-2023.

Incredible cost blowouts relating to the Northern Transit Way, level crossings and more

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1693536857672364346

Quote from: City Designer on March 15, 2023, 23:40:16 PMHow is the Northern Transitway progressing? Suppsed to be finished early-2023.

I was out that way last night, still nowhere near finished, or even approach completion in many areas, eg around the 7/11 in Kedron it was down to 1 lane with kerbs being jackhammered out etc.

Quote from: Gazza on August 22, 2023, 08:07:09 AM

Quote from: City Designer on March 15, 2023, 23:40:16 PMHow is the Northern Transitway progressing? Suppsed to be finished early-2023.

I was out that way last night, still nowhere near finished, or even approach completion in many areas, eg around the 7/11 in Kedron it was down to 1 lane with kerbs being jackhammered out etc.

This is of TMR/Minister's own doing.  This project should have just created a Bus Lane from the exiting corridor (narrower traffic lanes & pavement hardening if needed in Bus Lane).  By refusing to remove traffic lane (and thus by that alone reduce congestion) they have forced this project to be far far more expensive than it needed to be.  Unfortunately replacing the Minister does not change the "beliefs" within the Labor party.  Road widening reduces congestion and public transport must not reduce options to drive everywhere at anytime inside their belief system.

Dont forget it cant remove parking either!

Quote from: JonnoBy refusing to remove traffic lane (and thus by that alone reduce congestion) they have forced this project to be far far more expensive than it needed to be.

Agree with Jonno. Finish the Northern Busway or build a subway under the corridor to Chermside. Much more bang than the Mark Bailey Toll Tunnel (MBTT) concept.

And $400 million for level crossing removal, that's enormous.

Quote from: Gazza on August 22, 2023, 10:30:59 AMDont forget it cant remove parking either!

"Praise to be Ford!!!"

Quote from: #Metro on August 22, 2023, 10:39:59 AM

Quote from: JonnoBy refusing to remove traffic lane (and thus by that alone reduce congestion) they have forced this project to be far far more expensive than it needed to be.

Agree with Jonno. Finish the Northern Busway or build a subway under the corridor to Chermside. Much more bang than the Mark Bailey Toll Tunnel (MBTT) concept.

And $400 million for level crossing removal, that's enormous.

The idea was right as a Busway (should be a Metro Tunnel) tunnel will cost at lot so the Tranit/Bus lanes (not the over engineered type) was the right way to go.  They just screwed even that up!!!

Agree Jonno. The animation shows 9 lanes in total - four in each direction and one in the middle for a median or turning lane. That's a lot.

If this MBTT concept gets built, it will add another four lanes in total, bringing this up to 12 or 13 lanes in this corridor.

The Gateway Motorway has 12 general traffic lanes. They've exhausted the surface space, so now they go underground. They don't want to pay for that, so it's tolled.

An alternative use of those surface lanes are bikeways, which would be very good given the directness of Gympie Road and location. And maybe making the centre median look good with trees.

The Northside roughly has about ~ 20-30 million trips/year from buses, would easily justify Priority A ROW.

Couriermail --> Claims Northern Transitway budget slashed, workers laid off as completion date blows out $

QuoteAlmost 300 workers have been laid off and the budget has been slashed on Brisbane's most controversial busway, the Northern Transitway, with disruptive works to drag on until 2026, insiders claim.

Quest Newspapers has been told about 260 contractors and other workers were laid off over two days last week, which was understood to be about 70 per cent of the workforce.

The Transport and Main Roads (TMR) Department also slashed spending on the project from about $10m per month to one-third of that amount, blowing out the completion date, the insiders said. ...

QuoteThe number of buses would also increase from every 15 minutes to every five minutes, or better, during peak periods, with better accessibility and better pathways for cyclists and pedestrians.

I no of no service increases planned?  Creative accounting?

Quest Newspapers--->https://www.couriermail.com.au/questnews/north/northern-transitway-length-cut-back-in-latest-controversy/news-story/ae3126732f8999d91b489c113d0f1a60

QuoteNorthern Transitway length cut back in latest controversy

Northern Transit way culled due to blow out in costs as well as construction timeframes. It's now likely to be shorter