RAIL - Back On Track Forum

http://www.transportationassociates.com.au/downloads/

Some papers on high speed rail, dated but still of interest.

Prospects for high speed rail in Australia
http://www.transportationassociates.com.au/files/Prospects%20for%20High%20Speed%20Rail%20in%20Australia.pdf

https://twitter.com/CatherineKingMP/status/1680856371640803334

Advertisement AFR 21 July 2023

CEO HSRA

https://twitter.com/CatherineKingMP/status/1683960696437104640

Quote from: ozbob on July 18, 2023, 01:08:48 AMhttps://twitter.com/CatherineKingMP/status/1680856371640803334

Well this is a tax payer funded p%ss up in Europe if ever I saw one!!

Could have picked around 20 other countries to talk to, all of whom do it better than the Poms.

Like Spain, France or Japan.

Quote from: SurfRail on July 27, 2023, 15:08:47 PMCould have picked around 20 other countries to talk to, all of whom do it better than the Poms.

       

https://twitter.com/railmaps/status/1686538411988131840

Rail Express --> High-speed board meets in Newcastle

QuoteThe Australian Government's vision for an east coast high-speed rail network has taken another important step forward, with the Board of the High Speed Rail Authority (HSRA) meeting in Newcastle for the first time last week.

It followed on from its detailed briefing with New South Wales transport officials regarding the existing rail corridor between Sydney and Newcastle. A high-speed network between the two cities is expected to be the first such project in the country. ...

https://twitter.com/urbanizationist/status/1701829041857380362?

The 2013 study was a dog.

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1706089294375575753?s=20

Will Australia ever get High Speed Rail?

^ This. Sometimes it feels like the HSR carrot is being used as an excuse not to do common-sense upgrades. The truth is that we need both, but one's an incredibly expensive generational project and the other is a few years' worth of work that should have been done all along anyway.

The HSR fantasy goes nowhere while trains are in their current state. If the trip Syd-Mel or Syd-Bris took, say, 6 hours - it wouldn't come anywhere near replacing air travel, but it would still be popular enough to run several times per day and at that point the general public and political class would actually sit up and take notice.

These projects are high risk and both domestic and international experience supports this view.

The failure and cost-explosion of the inland rail project, and the poor performance of the Adelaide-Darwin railway, plus many studies showing marginal viability for HSR gives many reasons to reconsider that 'this time will be different'.

The space to compete is against trains vs motorway lanes, not trains vs planes IMO. A project of this scale and duration has the potential to suck Federal funding for transport away from state projects for many decades.

That's the thing though. No one is stepping up with funding, design or running which leaves state governments on shakey ground while the feds constantly knock back projects as rail projects are state responsibilities. ARTC has been useless well before the more recent planning of Inland rail. Just remember prior to the QR/Aurizon split we had hundreds of millions of dollars worth of ARTC mtce (including the 10 year national ARTC rail grinding contract) and design project contracts with most being transferred to Aurizon who stepped out or did not renew contracts with ARTC. While they are a federal body they do lack quite a lot of railway knowledge which showed when the majority of the Queensland section had piggybacked of old QR projects along with very high amounts of outsourcing projects and contracts.

Adelaide to Darwin isn't ARTC. They own half of it but it's a private corridor. Alice Springs-Darwin is owned by Aurizon and Aurizon has the Alice Springs-Tarcoola lease from ARTC. No different than QR owning Gladstone-Rockhampton track but have leased the corridor to Aurizon for another 88 years which is a bit sh%t as traveltrains have to pay aurizon track access fees.

HSR is a fantasy idea to distract everyone. Just like TMR/state government with a railway line to the Sunshine Coast. It won't be happening until a federal operator is established but given the federal track manager contracts out a lot of day to day operations goes to show how serious they are.

In any ideal world ARTC is the last organisation I'd trust with HSR.

I'd go as far and include unideal worlds in that too

Interview 28 Nov 2023 ABC Radio Brisbane Drive Host Steve Austin with Robert Dow RBoT discuss fast rail for regional Queensland.

Here --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_sa_rd_28nov23.mp3 MP3  10.0 MB

The Guardian --> Albanese's high-speed rail body yet to appoint CEO or begin planning any train projects

QuoteSix months after its establishment, the Albanese government's high-speed rail body is yet to appoint a chief executive or begin planning any train projects, as the opposition accuses it of achieving "absolutely nothing" towards its fast rail ambition.

Labor took its renewed push for high-speed rail along Australia's east coast to the 2022 election, along with a commitment of $500m for planning and early works for the first stage of the corridor from Sydney to Newcastle.

The government's High Speed Rail Authority (HSRA) only formally came into existence in June, after legislation was passed paving the way for the abolishment of the National Faster Rail Agency (NFRA), a body established by the Morrison government in 2019 which did not deliver on earlier high-speed rail projects. ...

Sydney Morning Herald --> 'You don't just rush out and start spending money': Slow going for high-speed rail $

QuoteLabor's promised high-speed rail network from Brisbane to Melbourne cannot be rushed, says federal Transport Minister Catherine King, with planning for the project to continue this year.

Former Sydney Metro executive Tim Parker on Monday took the helm of the federal government's High Speed Rail Authority – a body legislated in November 2022 to identify and secure rail corridors while overseeing the construction and operation of the network. ...

Newcastle Herald --> Albanese government fast-tracks business case for Newcastle bullet train $

QuoteThe federal government says it is "serious" about building high-speed rail between Newcastle and Sydney and will bring forward a business case for the project to this year.

High-speed rail on a new dedicated route could cut travel times to Sydney to 45 minutes, but the long-awaited project will come with an eye-watering price tag.

Just how expensive the line will be could become clearer by the end of the year. ...

It's another report to add to the pile...

There are significant 'topographic' challenges between Sydney and Newcastle.

Easiest thing to do is probably Sydney-Canberra.

^ But substantially less benefit - the population base between the 2 is drastically smaller as there is no equivalent of the Central Coast in between.

I see it as a step forward with two caveats.  1.  That the business case takes into account that this is a small beginning of a larger network of HSR and; 2. that it progresses to construction

Quotehere are significant 'topographic' challenges between Sydney and Newcastle.

But like, it needs to be dealt with eventually right?

When you look at the Sydney to Newcastle freeway, this had to face the same rugged terrain, and needed enough earthworks to accommodate 6 lanes, (versus 2 tracks)
Nobody sits wringing their hands asking if it was a good use of public funds to build that road. It's hard to imagine life without it.




The current railway was built in 1887, also through that difficult terrain, and built and funded when Australia had a total population of under 3 million.
Australia will hit 30 million in the 2030s, and by that point the original line would be 150 years old.

So if we could justify a railway when Australia had little money or population,
then why is it a stretch to imagine a replacement for the line 150 years later, with 10x the population?

I just think its ridiculous that as a country, we have no problem building freeways that bypass old winding section of roads.
(Does anyone remember the winding road from Byron to Tweed heads via Murwillumbah, versus the new one we currently have?)

But when it comes to rail its like "hmmm gee, I dunno, might be a bit expensive, lets just stick with the train to newcastle that takes nearly 3 hours to go 120kmh.
Or propose bandaid fixes like selective realignments.

Quote from: #Metro on January 18, 2024, 08:37:22 AMIt's another report to add to the pile...

There are significant 'topographic' challenges between Sydney and Newcastle.

Easiest thing to do is probably Sydney-Canberra.

Syd to CBR would have been better. Apparently, this agency is helping looking into the Bne to Toowoomba leg as well.

Agree v9. Evaluate a panel of competing projects and be very selective about what goes through (if anything).

This is the Brightline Florida approach. Be very selective. Start with proof of concept, 'best chance' projects.

Is Sydney to Newcastle the top 'best chance' project? Discuss.

HSR projects tend to automatically price themselves out of existence - either before or during the project (e.g. Sweden HSR, UK HS2, all cancelled).

Report might just confirm unviablity as HSR, might recommend MSR or something else.

We'll just have to see. But based on the big report pile we already have, likely to be more of the same outcome.

Quote(e.g. Sweden HSR, UK HS2, all cancelled).

In both cases it was probably because a right wing government got elected.

A similar thing happened in Australia when Abbott got elected, HSR was stopped in its tracks, funding pulled for CRR, funding pulled for Adelaide electrification etc.
Remember the whole "The federal government should stick to its knitting and fund roads"?

Does this Sound familiar:

Quote. As well as the refurbishment of the existing network, the government is now prioritizing better roads and more charging points for electric vehicles over investment in high-speed rail.

https://www.railjournal.com/passenger/high-speed/sweden-abandons-high-speed-programme/

Quote from: verbatim9 on January 18, 2024, 09:50:56 AM

Quote from: #Metro on January 18, 2024, 08:37:22 AMIt's another report to add to the pile...

There are significant 'topographic' challenges between Sydney and Newcastle.

Easiest thing to do is probably Sydney-Canberra.

Syd to CBR would of been better. Apparently, this agency is helping looking into the Bne to Toowoomba leg as well.

I say it's better to do the difficult and most expensive part first.  That's most likely the Sydney to Newcastle section straight up.  Once that's done, it's locked in and can't be watered down or cancelled and the rest of the new system can hook up to it

It's also where the bulk of the time savings can be locked in.

Eg once you get to Newcastle in an hour, that means you could get to Tamworth in 4.5 hours, Taree in 3.5 hours etc

Sydney - Newcastle should be faster rail not HSR. Unless they are going to use that line to head up to Bne.

Most countries use HSR to compete against air routes as this is more profitable.

Bne - Toowoomba will remain as electric faster rail.  No signficant gains having HSR standard if the trains average speed is 130-140 kph. Overall, network integration is important here  rather than new standards

Agree v9. Setting a higher speed should also be subject to evaluation. Might be HSR might be Fast Rail / MSR.

Depends on what the evaluation determines.

Quote from: verbatim9 on January 18, 2024, 13:19:51 PMSydney - Newcastle should be faster rail not HSR. Unless they are going to use that line to head up to Bne.

Most countries use HSR to compete against air routes as this is more profitable.

Bne - Toowoomba will remain as electric faster rail.  No signficant gains having HSR standard if the trains average speed is 130-140 kph. Overall, network integration is important here  rather than new standards

' Faster ' rail is meaningless in this context.  I think you really meant ' fast ' rail.

If, and it is a big IF Sydney - Newcastle is ever done it should be at HSR level infrastructure (alignment, curves, grades) because it will the the first section of a potential HSR line up to Queensland in the end. Train sets could operate at fast rail speeds depending acquisition of HSR sets down the track when there is more line to operate. It really comes down to the costings.  But the line itself does need to be at HSR standard.

" Bne - Toowoomba will remain as electric faster rail "

Again if Brisbane <> Toowoomba business case surfaces from the murky depths, it may recommend electric fast rail, it may not. It may recommend nothing.  Who knows?

Doing SYD to Newcastle as a lower standard than HSR would be a waste of time and money. Do it right the first time then it can be extended towards Brisbane in time.
Fast rail will need significant earthworks anyway, might as well go the whole hog while you're there.

QuoteUnless they are going to use that line to head up to BNE.

I think that's the idea.
Build it as a full HSR standard line.

May only go as far as Newcastle for the next 20 years, but when the decision is made to extend to Brisbane etc, then at least you haven't "sterilised" the corridor by introducing a bottleneck through where trains are limited to 150-200 between Sydney and Newcastle.

If you go ahead and try to cut costs between Sydney and Newcastle, then HSR to Brisbane will never achieve a 3h journey.

And of course, there are ways you could stage it, if you wanted to do an intermediate project.

For example, do you just build 50km of HSR standard from Hornsby to Tuggerah only?
This section takes 1h10 mins, but it would be possible to clear it in 15 mins at HSR standard.

With a 55 min time saving off the bat, that means a journey to the Central coast is under 1 hour, and the journey to Newcastle is under 2h, both of which are now faster than driving.

Then progressively build more stages to reduce that 2h down to 1h.

FASTER RAIL IS A NONSENSICAL DESCRIPTION.

Used to describe the Logan and Gold Coast Faster Rail project as a means of deception.

Acceptable terms are Fast Rail (FR) 160-200 km/  [ Medium Speed Rail (MSR) 200 - 250 km/h  ]    High Speed Rail (HSR) > 250 km/h

MSR is not used as much as FR and HSR, but MSR does provide the middle overlap in a sense.

https://minister.infrastructure.gov.au/c-king/interview/transcript-interview-abc-radio-newcastle-breakfast-paul-culliver

PAUL CULLIVER: Ian's on the text line. He's in the Hill. He says, "Paul, why can't we have a faster rail service to Sydney, say, in 90 minutes? This is far more achievable than a bullet train." Why go for high-speed rail when maybe just a faster rail service is an option?

CATHERINE KING: Well, faster rail in and of itself is a good idea, but it's also very expensive. You spend a lot of money just to get an extra minute. So to actually get – you know, you have to take all of the curves out, you have to change alignments, and it's incredibly costly. Our view, frankly, is having committed to high-speed rail, getting that rail service – you know, I've travelled on high-speed rail internationally; it's amazing and incredibly great for economic opportunities for the region. So, we think if we're going to spend a lot of money, let's get this right and let's actually deliver something that will really change the whole way in which the economy of New South Wales, but particularly this part of the world, operates and the opportunities for jobs for people to actually live, work here and then maybe commute into Sydney a couple of days a week if they've got meetings. But let's see if we can get more head offices out here in Newcastle.

Part of the evaluation should be a speed and net benefits curve plotting different speed choices on one axis and the net benefits on the other axis.

Then see if there is an optimum level. There probably will be.