RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: #Metro on May 09, 2023, 15:42:49 PMI'm not against a new car bridge. Two lanes each way isn't excessive, and the current one lane each way has been like that since 1936.

Majority of users are local and it's likely to stay that way.

Additional PT/AT improvements are possible, and any new road would also have to accommodate cyclists (Mark Bailey introduced this requirement).

Having better eScooter access at stations would help greatly as well.

A logical place to feed buses locally is Indooroopilly station. This is in part because express train services stop there. The bottleneck the existing bridge presents is an obstacle to doing that, particularly for interchanging passengers where the bus connection must be reliable.

Any unreliability in a connecting bus translates directly into a bus-train interchange penalty. The penalty exists because of the uncertainty in making the bus-train connection reliably.

Weighing these considerations, I don't have an objection to it. It's a project that is similar in nature and intent to the Summers Road Interchange upgrade IMHO.

Again, cities that are actually reducing congestion are doing so by taking 4 lane roads and reducing traffic lanes for cycling and/or bus lanes. Bus lane does not make sense here because of the rail line.

The report says that the issue is local trips and no connection to UQ.  So implement frequent direct BRT to UQ and beyond and enable (1) safer cycling (no not on the bridge but all around) and (2) reduce the need for trips by having better mixed use south of bridge.   

One part of the problem here is a freeway style overpass up the road right next to a commercial centre?  And they wonder why no one walk or caches public transport.!!

Well, would members support closing the existing walter taylor bridge to all car traffic except emergency vehicles and buses, similar to the Eleanor Schonell Bridge?

And build no replacement.

If not, why not?

Quote from: #Metro on May 09, 2023, 16:28:17 PMWell, would members support closing the existing walter taylor bridge to all car traffic except emergency vehicles and buses, similar to the Eleanor Schonell Bridge?

And build no replacement.

If not, why not?

Silly.  It is an important local transport connection, unfortunately the traffic is not only local traffic.  You only have to travel along Oxley road.  Car to car congestion from the other side of Indooroopilly across the bridge, along Oxley Road to Blunder Road and beyond.  This is the problem if you add more capacity across the river at Indro it will induce even more traffic. What then, 6 lanes all the way? As OzGamer put it ' a traffic sewer '.

Quote from: #Metro on May 09, 2023, 16:28:17 PMWell, would members support closing the existing walter taylor bridge to all car traffic except emergency vehicles and buses, similar to the Eleanor Schonell Bridge?

And build no replacement.

If not, why not?

No, there should be 2 lanes, like any other general urban road since you still need the underlying road network for all road users.

That is enough that if you need to drive or make a delivery from A to B the option is there.

But there's no need to spend $700-1b enhancing the ability to drive in peak hour from A to B in this part of Brisbane.

Merit

The reason why the road and bridge exists rather than just the railway and cycling bridge only, is because there is a need to create and maintain local access for car (and bus). This local access is being eroded because housing and population in 2023 are much more than in 1936 in this area.

The road is also unusual in Brisbane as it has single lane sections (1+1). Other comparable roads in Brisbane are are generally four lanes in total (clockwise):

Sandgate Rd - 4 lanes
Breakfast Ck Rd - 6 lanes
Wynnum Rd - 4 lanes
Old Cleveland Rd - 4 lanes
Cavendish Rd - 4 lanes
Logan Rd - 6 lanes
Beaudesert Rd - 4 lanes
Annerly Rd - 4 lanes
Fairfield Rd - 4 lanes
Sir Fred Schonell Dr - 4 lanes
Blunder Rd - 4 lanes
Milton Rd - 4 lanes
Moggill Rd - 4 lanes
Forest Lake Blvd - 4 lanes
Waterworks Rd - 4 lanes
Stamford Rd - 4 lanes
Webster Rd - 4 lanes
Beckett Rd - 4 lanes

The other comparable local arterial roads that have a comparable (1+1) configuration include:
- Riding Road to Bulimba (enclosed/pocketed area so demand unlikely to increase much)
- Sherwood Road between Sherwood and Rocklea (orbital, so not under as much pressure)
- Moggill Road beyond Kenmore (earmarked I suspect for expansion as Bellbowrie expands)

Cost and Alternatives

- The high cost simply reflects the challenging and crowded nature of the site, just like how the busway at Stones Corner ended up costing $465 million for 1 km.

- The PT service is good; The train is already every few minutes in peak and frequent off peak. There's not a huge amount of increased pax I can see by adding yet even more service to the timetable either in peak or out of it. You could potentially get 10 min trains all day to Corinda after CRR opens.

- Bikes. There is a bike bridge and there are bike lanes on both sides of Oxley Road to Graceville Memorial Park which connects to Indooroopilly train station. The bike lanes could be extended of course further. Again, will improve things but not to an extent that it can be a substitute for what an upgraded bridge crossing would do. AT(Bikes)=5% or less generally, so I can't really see it handling the increased demand unless the bridge was converted to an exclusive green bridge (which it won't).

- Feeder buses. Feeder buses will get stuck on the Walter Taylor bridge in traffic if any part of the bus route incorporates a crossing of the Walter Taylor Bridge. The only bus routes immune to that are those that will terminate at a train station at or before Chelmer Station and do not make the river crossing. But designing such a bus route would require cutting out major demand generators Indooroopilly Train station and Indooroopilly Shopping Centre from the route, so I can't see that being practical or viable.

- Practicality. If these car trips are local they are short, the PT equivalent would require walking 5-10 min to the stop or station, waiting 10-15 min for a bus, a short train journey to cross the Brisbane River, then another wait for a second connecting bus to get you to either Indooroopilly Shopping Centre or UQ, all just for a few kms. This is the sort of trip sequence that would be suitable for a longer journey, not a very short one.

Indeed, just taking a bike for the whole journey would likely be better than the walk-wait-feeder bus-train-feeder-bus-walk combination over a short distance. This would be further compounded if they are hauling shopping/groceries from Indooroopilly Shopping Centre and taking it home.

Closing Remarks

I don't usually support road projects because in many cases they do not make a lot of sense. A road upgrade should generally be a last resort after improvements have been made in other modes, but I think that this could be that exact case.

The slippery slope concerns that this would result in a freeway being built here seem unlikely to eventuate. The local arterial has a lower speed limit than a freeway, it is not limited access like a freeway, it also has many side streets coming in and out and traffic light controlled intersections. None of these are conducive to a freeway ever being built.

The absolute lack of space at the crossing Chelmer-Indooroopilly means that once expanded, there will be no possibility of further expansion.

And it would be faster to go via the Centenary (which is also getting upgrades).

This location should not be upgraded to induce more traffic.  As you point out #Metro " And it would be faster to go via the Centenary (which is also getting upgrades). "

Also

" The absolute lack of space at the crossing Chelmer-Indooroopilly means that once expanded, there will be no possibility of further expansion. "

The impact on the Oxley Road corridor would be profound, with much grief and anger no doubt.  More lanes crossing the river at Indro will wreck Indro to Oxley in time, there will be pressure to upgrade Oxley Road and in turn Blunder Road.  At present the bridge restriction helps to force others to go around.  Leave as is to preserve the suburbs.  This is a special case, comparison to other bridges around the suburbs is not quite valid IMHO.

I think it is time to turn the roads paradigm around.  We need to start somewhere, as far as I am concerned this is " A bridge too far .. "

QuoteThe slippery slope concerns that this would result in a freeway being built here seem unlikely to eventuate. The local arterial has a lower speed limit than a freeway, it is not limited access like a freeway, it also has many side streets coming in and out and traffic light controlled intersections. None of these are conducive to a freeway ever being built.

The concern is not so much about a freeway, but rather trying to fit 4 arterial lanes through established suburbs, and triggering "upgrading" intersections as a result.

Precedent.
Samford Rd and Wardell St are 4 lanes. Ok sounds fine right?

But during the Newman era the intersection was "upgraded" into this, with multiple extra turning lanes, resumptions.

https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.4222782,152.9905173,3a,48.8y,137.67h,88.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6odqugVgmNZCWDoM-1jg1Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Is building the Indooroopilly bridge going to mean triggering subsequent capacity upgrades of intersections further south to deal with the induced traffic?

Personally, I agree with bob, there are a lot of places like the middle of Corinda and Graveville 5ways where development is close to the road and you can totally see them knocking down buildings to add extra slip lanes etc, just as they have done elsewhere in recent times.

https://twitter.com/tamhus8/status/1656110476353495040?

Couriermail --> New Indooroopilly bridge could cost $1.3b: Council study outlines five options to fix traffic horror $

QuoteA new rail and car bridge from Chelmer to Indooroopilly could cost up to $1.3 billion, but doing nothing is not an option, a Council intergovernmental working group report has concluded.

The existing Walter Taylor Bridge, a car-only bridge adjacent to a cycle/pedestrian bridge and a rail crossing, has been choked with traffic in peak periods for years.

However, Council has consistently called on the State Government to fund any new crossing, while Transport Minister Mark Bailey wants Council to build it.

The working group identified six options for new river crossings upstream or downstream of the Walter Taylor, all of which it said would be technically challenging.

But Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner said it was clear locals supported significant transport solutions and that he remained committed to chip in funding if other levels of government did the same. ...

Sent to all outlets:

" A bridge too far "  (Indooroopilly)

10th May 2023

Brisbane City Council's Chelmer to Indooroopilly River Crossing Pre-feasibility Study (1) reminds RAIL Back On Track of Maslow's saying "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail".

The study, like all of Brisbane City Council's Transport Planning, makes no attempt to consider alternatives like those working in cities across the world.  It simply says "The answer is more roads capacity because just look how bad it is out there."

Together with the Indooroopilly Roundabout Replacement, Brisbane City Council is guaranteeing there will be more congestion.  No city in the world that is actually reducing congestion is building freestyle overpasses next to a commercial centre and prioritising the widening of roads.  In fact they are removing such road centric infrastructure and converting road space into separated bike/mobility and buses lanes.

It is no wonder that Lord Mayor is baying for more transport funding. His own transport planning and investment is making our traffic congestion worse, not better.

It is time for the Lord Mayor and Cr Ryan Murphy to accept that widening roads to "bust congestion" is as futile as "smoking more to cure lung cancer".  It's the cause not the cure.  Engineers Australia noted in 2021 "This makes attempting to "bust traffic congestion" through road construction, self-defeating. In this context, Australia's past transport investment strategy may be seen as questionable."

The estimated $1.3 billion price tag should be invested in active and public transport solutions.

RAIL Back On Track calls for BCC to abandon these futile projects that will only create more congestion and to work collaboratively with the State Government to:

. Build Brand New Station between Allwood and Keating Street with wide, straight platforms and underground bike parking

. Build an inline BRT/Busway Station and Pedestrian Plaza instead of the freeway scale Indooroopilly Roundabout Replacement overpass - there is still time

. Pedestrianise Keating Street

. Pedestrianise/Shared Zone Allwood St/Belgrave Rd

. Implement a faster, more frequent BRT style service between Indro, UQ and the South East/Eastern Busways

. Build safe, protected bike/mobility lanes on roads in the area particularly Moggill Rd, Oxley Rd, Honour Avenue and in and around Indooroopilly Shopping Centre creating a links all the way to the Bicentennial Bikeway and UQ

. Build high-quality bike, mobility parking facilities at railway stations in the area and Indooroopilly Shopping Centre

. work with the Chelmer, Graceville, Sherwood, Corinda and Oxley communities to create 15 minute Neighbourhoods that provide residents with the basic things they need — shops, schools, parks, leisure options, health care within a 15-minute radius by foot or bike.

Greens MP Michael Berkman,  a local MP,  has been reported in the Couriermail today as (2):

"(Berkman) said the best way to cater for local trips, especially school drop off and uni students, was fast, frequent public transport and safe bike lanes.

"If we wasted $1.3 billion on a new road bridge, all we'd get is more dangerous traffic in Sherwood, Chelmer, Indro and Taringa,'' he said.

"Instead, the State Government should upgrade buses to link with trains on both sides, including Indro to UQ and Fig Tree Pocket.

"They should also upgrade our east-west links by reopening the existing Tennyson train line to Yeerongpilly, or creating a cross-campus bus link at UQ."

We agree with Mr Berkman.  A new Indooroopilly bridge will induce even more traffic creating chaos from Taringa to Inala! More lanes crossing the river at Indooroopilly will wreck Indooroopilly to Oxley in time, there will be pressure to upgrade Oxley Road and in turn Blunder Road.  At present the bridge restriction helps to force others to go around.  Leave as is to preserve the suburbs

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

References:

1. BCC: Chelmer to Indooroopilly river crossing pre-feasibility study
https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/traffic-and-transport/roads-infrastructure-and-bikeways/road-and-intersection-projects/chelmer-to-indooroopilly-river-crossing-pre-feasibility-study

2. New Indooroopilly bridge could cost $1.3b: Council study outlines five options to fix traffic horror
https://www.couriermail.com.au/questnews/southwest/new-indooroopilly-bridge-could-cost-13b-most-dont-want-it-council-study/news-story/45018bc98c00a63ef3d2be7e5311b531

Facebook ...

My preferred solution is to remove the existing Council.

Quote from: SurfRail on May 10, 2023, 13:12:55 PMMy preferred solution is to remove the existing Council.

+1

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1656146929242480642

Brisbanetimes --> MP, advocates call for 'Tennyson line' to reopen instead of new bridge

QuoteThere is a renewed push to reopen Brisbane's forgotten Tennyson rail line in the western suburbs rather than spending a billion dollars on two new car bridges at Indooroopilly.

Brisbane City Council this week released six options to reduce congestion over Indooroopilly's 87-year-old Walter Taylor Bridge, costing between $800 million and $1.3 billion.

Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner on Tuesday offered to pay one-third of the cost and asked the Queensland and Australian governments to each contribute a third. ...

 

Brisbanetimes --> Lord mayor joins chorus of calls for Tennyson rail line to be reopened

Quote... Schrinner said on Sunday it was time to reconsider the Tennyson line after Transport Minister Mark Bailey refused on Friday to co-fund Brisbane City Council's first option to reduce road congestion, a new bridge expected to cost between $800 million and $1.3 billion at Indooroopilly.

"I've already committed to funding a third of the cost of another Indooroopilly to Chelmer river crossing, which is a significant amount," Schrinner said.

"So it's disappointing to hear Mark Bailey can't even be bothered to stump up a single dollar for a river crossing he's campaigned for as the local MP. ...

I did some basic searching... what Cr Adrian Schinner is saying is true. Mark Bailey DID campaign for road improvements...

Minister says council has 'its head in the sand' over Indooroopilly bridge
By Tony Moore Updated February 28 2018 - 2:49pm, first published 12:12pm

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6020423/minister-says-council-has-its-head-in-the-sand-over-indooroopilly-bridge/

QuoteMr Bailey said he campaigned on the need to accelerate work around the Indooroopilly bridge at the November 2017 state election after the council appeared to stall its planning.

"I got a 6.5 per cent swing to me in the booths in the Chelmer, Graceville, Sherwood area and that was one of the key things that I campaigned on, so people want to see action from them and not just putting their head in the sand and hoping it will go away, because it won't," Mr Bailey said.

BCC says they were waiting on whether the bus station will be moved to Indoroopilly Station because it will impact their design:

Quote"The State Government's current investigations into the potential future relocation of the Indooroopilly bus station including closer to the existing train station, will also inform traffic and transport needs along this road corridor."

(bolding added)

Mark Bailey FB page (saved it in case he deletes it)

Quote from: Mark Bailey Facebook PageThis was Walter Taylor Bridge this morning at Chelmer. Worse than ever. The need for the LNP City Council to start either design work or a

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2822762104648979

Some doodling...again

Indooroopilly Roundabout

Indooroopilly Bus Station

Moggil Rd

Coonan Street

Tennyson Ward News and Events
Councillor Nicole Johnston

29th June 2023

WALTER TAYLOR BRIDGE DUPLICATION UDPATE

QuoteRecently you would have received a flyer from the Lord Mayor about the Chelmer to Indooroopilly River Crossing Pre-feasibility Study. Despite what can only be described as a flimsy study with very limited public consultation, the Lord Mayor has announced another bridge is coming. As per usual, his face was all over the flyer. Perhaps he will name it after himself.

The Lord Mayor's solution is to build another bridge with all traffic forced to use the existing congested and constrained Coonan Road corridor via an overpass over the Indooroopilly Rail Station and  ask another level of government to fork out for the $1.3 billion price tag. It is a tricky plan from a Lord Mayor who only wants to play politics not find real solutions to the congestion problems our community faces every day. Almost immediately, the State Government has ruled out funding a new bridge saying it is a Council responsibility.

Most concerningly, some of the key Study findings presented to you by Council are very misleading.

For example, Council advises that the majority of trips (about 75%) are "generated locally." Council's "local" metric is either that a trip starts or finishes in suburbs close to the Bridge. For example, a trip from Ipswich to Indooroopilly or North Lakes to Corinda is considered a "local trip" by Council. That's not local by anyone's reasonable understanding.

While Council presents the outcome of consultation as 85% of people in favour of "infrastructure improvements to the district and river crossing," this does not give a good picture of what people wrote in the "other box" relied on for this metric. See pie chart.



Worse still, what the Lord Mayor and Council didn't tell you in their glossy flyer is that the Study forecasts traffic could increase by up to 48% with a new bridge and it would be overcapacity within 10 years. My greatest concern is that the adverse impacts of thousands of extra vehicles a day, including trucks, using Honour Ave or Oxley Rd will irrevocably change and damage the amenity and safety of our community.

What is clear from the Study is that local residents want action on congestion via better public and active transport options as well as local intersection improvements around the Bridge.

Here are just some of my ideas and I want to hear yours:

. make public transport for students free during school and uni terms (Council subsidises seniors' fares, so why not students);
. local bus loops to rail stations, especially Indooroopilly and Graceville;
. bring City Cats up the river connecting Chelmer-Graceville-Tennyson-Indro with UQ;
. build new pathways and bikeways south of the river where they are missing;
. an intersection upgrade for Westminister/Coonan St and others; and
. a detailed, green paper and proper investigation into the best location for a new traffic bridge (or tunnel) in the Western Suburbs. 
   
I think the Lord Mayor should take a step back from the flawed, presumptive decision to duplicate the Walter Taylor Bridge. We need action now, practical projects that won't make the problem worse. The Lord Mayor might be out of them but I know our community is not! Let's come up with some solutions ourselves. I've put together a short survey to seek residents' views about a bridge upgrade, traffic safety improvements, better public and active transport or any other out of the box ideas. Click here to take the survey and let me know your views.

Survey: How to Fix Walter Taylor Bridge Traffic Chaos?

> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/MTBJWGQ

QuoteWorse still, what the Lord Mayor and Council didn't tell you in their glossy flyer is that the Study forecasts traffic could increase by up to 48% with a new bridge and it would be overcapacity within 10 years. My greatest concern is that the adverse impacts of thousands of extra vehicles a day, including trucks, using Honour Ave or Oxley Rd will irrevocably change and damage the amenity and safety of our community.

Would Nicole be willing to get behind placing a toll on it during peak hour? Solves two problems at once  - the congestion issue, and the financing issue.

 

Quote* 1. Nicole's ideas to reduce congestion (select your top 3):

QuoteMake public transport for students free during school and university terms (Council subsidises seniors, so why not students?)

No. Fares should sit with TransLink. In addition, it is a bad value proposition - pay more to get the same. That money should rather go into new service (e.g. BRT Metro buses to Indooroopilly)

QuoteLocal bus loops to rail stations, especially Indooroopilly and Graceville

Frequency would have to be very high, and this idea relies on the bus being able to drive on the Walter Taylor Bridge, which would get caught in congestion as well. Allowing 'Scoot & Ride' to cover the area would be more competitive for improved station access IMHO.

QuoteBring City Cats up the river connecting Chelmer-Indooroopilly with UQ (and beyond)

No. CityCats cause damage to the river bank and the travel times are uncompetitive.

QuoteBuild new pathways and bikeways south of the river where they are missing

Good idea, but won't generate enough use to decongest the bridge.

QuoteAn intersection upgrade for Westminister St/Coonan St, Indooroopilly

An intersection upgrade for Bridge St/Wharf St, Chelmer

Ban the right hand turn Coonan St/Radnor St, Indooroopilly

Limit rat-running through Longman Tce/Regatta St by restricting Bridge access between 7am and 9am

No comment on these.

QuoteToll non-local traffic on the Walter Taylor Bridge (like the Go Between Bridge)

Inequitable - funds from ratepayers all over Brisbane are paying,  but only a select group of users would be benefitting.

QuoteTrial cars on the Eleanor Schonell Bridge to divert traffic

No. Goes agains UQ agreement. Would disrupt Brisbane BRT Metro.

QuoteTunnel under the River

Worth looking into but likely even more expensive. Could be tolled though - route to desktop study.

QuoteWiden Coonan St

Demolish the heritage-listed Walter Taylor Bridge and replace it with a new four lane bridge

No comment on these.

I think the big alternative idea here is getting a green tunnel installed under UQ Campus at St Lucia. That means traffic does not have to