RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Long-distance passenger rail business case

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/long-distance-passenger-rail-business-case

We are looking into ways to improve services and upgrade the trains used for the long-distance network connecting many destinations across Queensland.

In October 2020, the Queensland Government committed $1 million towards a business case to address the aging fleet and the decline in passengers.

Partnering with Queensland Rail, the business case will explore ways to:

. enhance customer experience
. support regional tourism development
. improve regional network connectivity
. support rail manufacturing in Queensland.

We will also take a network approach to reviewing these service lines:

. Inlander: Townsville to Mount Isa
. Spirit of the Outback: Brisbane to Longreach
. Spirit of Queensland: Brisbane to Cairns
. Westlander: Brisbane to Charleville.

The future design process will be guided by the recommendations from the New Generation Rollingstock Commission of Inquiry and consultation with the disability sector.

Once the business case is completed, an investment decision will be made which is expected in late 2023.

Long-distance network map

You cannot view this attachment.

I am worried the business case will recommend getting rid of the Westlander and Inlander altogether; but the sad state of affairs for these trains is driven, at least in part, by the degradation of service that has been done to these trains, with the removal of sleeper carriages and proper dining facilities. Speed limits and overall journey times play a part too, but this is more directly relevant to people who need to travel when choosing how they do so.

At minimum, all of these services should offer private sleeper compartments, including at least 1 disability compliant/accessible private room that is preferably equipped with an accessible ensuite (at minimum, carriage facilities need to be accessible). Private compartments should be comfortable and well equipped. I don't think we're going for a Ghan/Indian Pacific kind of service here, so they don't so much need to be 'luxurious', as it were. Spirit of the Outback, as the 'premier' service, should have some perks over the others, such as the dedicated first class lounge and dining cars, unless there is an identified opportunity and realistic prospect to convert the Westy and/or Inlander to something similar.

There is an opportunity in the rebuild of three services and possible refresh/extension of one service for consistent interior fitout to be designed from the ground up, and to learn and take inspiration from modern long distance/overnight train design. I'm particularly fond of the newest Nightjet rollingstock from Obb from Austria and think we can learn a lot from their designs.

I have been on all of these trains, except the Inlander, either in full or in part and would love to see them get a makeover. QLD is pulling in eyewatering coal royalties in the current geopolitical climate, and that coal is being hauled by rail. Seems only fair to me some of that surplus should be invested back into the railways (even if QR no longer owns either the haulage company or most of the coal lines, the state is still pulling huge royalty/tax incomes).

Some infrastructure upgrades wouldn't go astray either. The fact it takes nearly 6 hours on the tilt to travel from Cairns to Townsville (a distance of some ~350km) is not a good showing, and certainly not competitive with other modes. It should, at most, take about 4 hours. When I went on that section of track in 2021, it was not particularly well maintained, and there are a lot of cane tram crossings, but it'd be nice to see the line speed brought up much closer to 100kph.

What are the frequencies and timings for each service?

Sleepers and other carriages have been removed due to end of life or damage to the frames with most of the remaining good ones being transferred to the SOTO. IIRC any refurbs would also kick in expensive DDA compliance modifications. This has always been an ongoing issue for treasury and other government department bean counters.

Cairns-Townsville is another well known beancounter issue with treasury blocking several projects over the years such as upgrading the track to cement sleepers the entire way to reduce track delays (there was a similar problem here on the Caboolture and Ipswich line where it was a mix of timber and cement sleepers. While south of Petrie was fine as cement sleepers were in use heavy track speed restrictions were in play north of Petrie due to the mix of timber and cement sleepers. Cairns-Townsville is a mix of timber, steel and cement sleepers. A series of delays made it quite political and swiftly the track was upgraded to cement sleepers).

If anything it will just be new carriages with a 2900 on the front.

I'm feeling pretty sure that this is the death knell of the services.  They'll be replaced by contracted bus operations for sure.  The only way they'll survive is if the business case finds reason to replace the coaches for the SOTO, meaning that it would be plausible to tack a few extra on for the Westlander/Inlander. 

I'll be very surprised if they are retained as rail services

Quote from: #Metro on May 04, 2023, 09:13:17 AMWhat are the frequencies and timings for each service?

Westlander, Inlander and SOTO are twice weekly in each direction

I see a big  difference between long-distance travel and regional travel.  The long-distance is Brisbane Cairns.

The rest is regional commuter similar to the NSW Trains vision!! Comfortable regional travel that you could connect to the Cairns-Brisbane long-distance spine if that is your destination.

 

^^ Agree, problem is as usual they are too slow to be a serious proposition.  Eg Charleville to Brisbane by rail is 17 hours for 800km+/-

Sure it provides links for the communities inbetween - but the timing of the service is still that of an overnight train (with no overnight facilities) - so it's really not a great service.  More a service of last resort imo.

I'm guessing that what might happen is that they are all replaced by a combination of bus and plane.

Rail has high fixed costs to operate, works well at volume. Doesn't work so well at low volume.

Long distance rail a different story - growing cities along the coast and a tourism market as well.

Plus, the trains on those lines are tilts. Speeds could be increased in the future, making them even more attractive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilt_Train

QuoteCommencing in 1998, the Electric Tilt Train operates from Brisbane to Rockhampton. With a top service speed of 215 km/h (130 mph) and the ability to tilt five degrees in each direction, the Tilt Train is one of the fastest trains in Australia ...

...The train operates on the North Coast line and serves the intermediate towns of Gympie, Maryborough, Bundaberg and Gladstone. The electric Tilt Trains run in a multiple unit configuration. In May 1999 the tilt train achieved a top speed under test conditions of 210km/hr driven by Kenneth Cavanough and Greg Roberston.

^ Now, if you can get some upgrades to boost the speed up, this train will be more attractive than car and coach...

^^ Of course - that'd be great - but it's not going to happen.

It'll be coaches contracted out, and/or a boost to the existing air service

Quote from: #Metro on May 04, 2023, 09:13:17 AMWhat are the frequencies and timings for each service?

Hey metro, this information is Available on the QR website.
https://www.queenslandrailtravel.com.au/Documents/Timetables/Post-COVID%2019%20timetables/Timetables_A4_All%20Trains_0822_FA.pdf
It may be easier to read this information compared to another member re-typing it.

I must concede there seems little, if any, economic or regional passenger-focused incentive to maintain these services as rail services.

The loco hauled services might fairly be characterised as 'intended' to be regional commuter services, but regional commuters don't use them much, if at all, given the travel times. For example, my 2020 trip from Roma to Charleville, which is about 250km, took 5 and a half hours - an average speed below 50kph. About 15 people got off at Roma. There were 7 of us on the final leg to Charleville. Two were elderly who take the Westy every year because they loved it, there was my party of 2, a solo commuter on a pension ticket and two other tourists. In practical terms, I would struggle to describe the Westlander as 'regional commuter' as it travels through many of the major regional centres overnight (i.e. Toowoomba at 11:30pm through Oakey, Dalby, Chinchilla and Miles in the wee hours of the morning to Roma at 6:00am), and those are by far the larger towns than Mitchell and Charleville.

I may be firing a shot across the bow of Longreach here, but I actually think Charleville is better as a tourist destination, both in itself and the regions you can access from it. Roma wasn't too bad either, and it's the gateway to Carnarvon Gorge and other places. I do believe in the tourism potential of the Westlander if given the appropriate level of service, promotion, and tour options that allow you to explore these parts of Queensland.

I would expect SOTO would get the green light on its own merits (or at least, political ones), as it has a strong tourist showing.

QuoteRoma wasn't too bad either, and it's the gateway to Carnarvon Gorge and other places.

I cant see a market for someone taking the train to Roma then getting a 4X4 tour package into Canarvon Gorge.

QuoteI may be firing a shot across the bow of Longreach here, but I actually think Charleville is better as a tourist destination, both in itself and the regions you can access from it.

Having done both, would disagree.
Longreach is much more of a thriving town, the attractions are better.
Everything in Charleville seemed a bit half hearted. Eg that tiny bilby thing at the info center, the 2000s looking cosmos center. Main street was a bit meh etc.

Quote from: Gazza on May 04, 2023, 10:20:22 AM

QuoteRoma wasn't too bad either, and it's the gateway to Carnarvon Gorge and other places.

I cant see a market for someone taking the train to Roma then getting a 4X4 tour package into Canarvon Gorge.

You might be right. Perhaps only a train tragic like me would go to all that effort (which I did), and then go to all the effort of grabbing a rental car at Charleville and driving the rest of the way to Quilpie 

The economist (health economist technically) in me screams internally about the viability of these locomotive hauled services when I start feeling nostalgic about these trains which continue to exist now for what I can only imagine are political reasons. I do hear these arguments about how pointless the poor old Westlander is in its current form, on the current tracks, even if I don't necessarily want to listen to them 

QuoteThe economist (health economist technically) in me screams internally about the viability of these locomotive hauled services when I start feeling nostalgic about these trains which continue to exist now for what I can only imagine are political reasons.

+1

I think the focus should be the coastal train routes, which have demand behind them and can be incrementally upgraded to a much higher speed.

I wonder if demand is such that the Bundaberg and Rockhampton services could be combined so that all tilt trains go from Brisbane to Rockhampton? Any merit in this?

Both the Westlander and the Inlander used to be ' mixed ' trains until the Bligh Government broke up QR and flogged off QR National.  Part of the arrangements was that QR was not to operate any freight services.  This meant that the Westlander and Inlander could no longer provide the ' fast freight ' service that they did for many years, and was much appreciated by traders.  Goods arrived in a good condition and they knew would be on time essentially.  The road transport arrangements that replaced these were very unsatisfactory. 

In 2012 a few of us travelled on the Westy to Charleville.  I did some media there on the radio trying to drum up support.  Local traders were complaining bitterly about the loss of the goods service.

The freight attached to the trains helped to defray the operating costs.  It was a sad, bad move to remove it.

See > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=94629

====

I also travelled to Quilpie and Cunnamulla in 1994 by rail, behind a PB15.  5 day trip.

On the way to Charleville, 1994.  This was an ARHS tour to Wandoan, Charleville, Quilpie and Cunnamulla

Passing inbound Westlander west of Toowoomba



Note freight vans.

Charleville or bust!

Charleville businesses now get goods delivered by truck. Basically, the trucks run wheen orders fill up the back, not the regular train service that once applied. The local electrical goods store says there is a lot more damage to fridges, washers etc when they arrive by truck than when they were consigned as rail freight.

I can see where you are coming from, but can you really justify the emissions of running two locos hauling the westy versus a single truck that runs on demand?
Maybe the delivery company could fix their trucks suspension or pack the goods better?

Queensland Parliament

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2023/573-2023.pdf

Question on Notice
No. 573
Asked on 11 May 2023

MR S BENNETT ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS (HON M BAILEY)

QUESTION:

With reference to a train manufacturing workshop in Torbanlea to be constructed—
Will the Minister confirm that replacement carriages for the Spirit of the Outback will also be
constructed to replace the existing carriages that are well beyond their use by date?

ANSWER:

I thank the Member for Burnett for the question.

The Palaszczuk Government will boost Queensland's train manufacturing industry and build and
operate 65 new six-car commuter passenger trains through the Queensland Train Manufacturing
Program (QTMP). Works include a purpose-built manufacturing facility at Torbanlea—in the
Maryborough region—and construction of a new rail facility in Ormeau. QTMP will provide
considerable benefits, including modernising and enabling the expansion of the passenger fleet
to support South-East Queensland's population growth.

The Department of Transport and Main Roads and Queensland Rail are working together to
examine options to replace carriages on the Westlander, Inlander and the Spirit of the Outback.
The Palaszczuk Government has also committed $1 million towards this goal.

The business case will explore ways to:

. enhance customer experience and improve accessibility
. support regional tourism development
. improve regional network connectivity
. support rail manufacturing in Queensland.

Once the business case is complete, and subject to an investment decision, an approach to
market to supply new carriages will be made.

So probably nothing in the budget for it I suspect.  I will be very surprised if they commit to replace the carriages vs. bustitution.

Hi, new to the Forum and especially interested in the goings on to my north. I'm well travelled on QR and spent a year in the heat and dust of Longreach archiving local government records, but I digress...

As this business case is now well overdue:

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/long-distance-passenger-rail-business-case

Is there any speculation on when it may be presented to your Minister? Reading between the lines, I don't see this business case as a bustitution exercise, but as an opportunity to re-launch the 'Lander services and of course the tired SOTO.
My view is it will depend on if there are actual rail advocates working in Queensland Transport and not just pen pushers trying to climb the greasy pole.

Mike.

Welcome The Vinelander!  Great point you raise about the business case.  I will attempt to seek an answer.

Unfortunately much to do with rail in Queensland is rather ramshackle at times because of the duplicity of politics, and TMR.  Most things run late ...

^

I have written to TMR asking if there has been any progress.

Quote from: ozbob on February 27, 2024, 00:00:50 AM^

I have written to TMR asking if there has been any progress.

TMR have contacted me.  I should have some information in a few weeks.

Thanks for your advocacy. I'm certain we will all be waiting with baited breath to read the summary of the business case.

Mike.

Place order here


https://www.hitachirail.com/press/#/pressreleases/hitachi-and-eversholt-rail-develop-battery-for-a-gwr-intercity-battery-hybrid-train-trial-3142999#/pressreleases/hitachi-and-eversholt-rail-develop-battery-for-a-gwr-intercity-battery-hybrid-train-trial-3142999

And these

https://x.com/doc7austin/status/1765083654500528615?s=46&t=EDszjTErsxTIqAna7yuP-w

Queensland Parliament

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2024/872-2024.pdf

Question on Notice
No. 872
Asked on 20 August 2024

MR S BENNETT ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS AND MINISTER
FOR DIGITAL SERVICES (HON B MELLISH)

QUESTION:

With reference to October 2020, when the government committed $1m to a business case to
improve services and replace ageing rolling stock on Queensland's long distance train services,
the Westlander, Inlander and Spirit of the Outback and the business case was due for completion
in late 2023—

Will the Minister advise (a) when this business case will be completed and (b) how any proposed
changes will enhance customer experience and support much-needed regional tourism
development?

ANSWER:

I thank the Member for Burnett for the question.

In October 2020, the Queensland Government committed to developing a business case for the
replacement of rollingstock on the following regional long-distance passenger rail (LDPR) routes
which service western Queensland:

. Westlander (Brisbane to Charleville)
. Inlander (Townsville to Mt Isa)
. Spirit of the Outback (Brisbane to Longreach).

A preliminary Business Case Equivalent has recently been completed by the Department of
Transport and Main Roads. Ongoing supplementary analysis is underway to facilitate the
refinement and finalisation of the LPDR Western Lines Business Case.

The LPDR Western Lines Business Case investigates new rollingstock, including sleeper,
restaurant, lounge/bar and service carriages, along with associated rail infrastructure. It is
envisaged that the proposed service offering will have a positive impact on regional tourism
outcomes and generate economic activity in regional Queensland.

This business case should also investigate adding proper sleeper arrangements to the Spirit of Queensland!!

"A preliminary Business Case Equivalent has recently been completed by the Department of
Transport and Main Roads."

So, not a business case, but an 'equivalent' one. Like a business case only different? Sounds odd. Hints at manipulated BCRs.