RAIL - Back On Track Forum

^ This is an interesting tunnelling technique. I wonder if it could be used to tunnel from QSBS to Queen Street/Post Office Square?

Ha ha ...

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1626209724831272963

^

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1626214652790317059

Quote from: #Metro on February 16, 2023, 14:09:47 PM^ This is an interesting tunnelling technique. I wonder if it could be used to tunnel from QSBS to Queen Street/Post Office Square?

This tunnelling technique is dictated by the local ground conditions and the geometry of the tunnel.
The two intermediate curved arches are for temporary support prior to the main arch gaining sufficient strength.
(I.e. If you dug the entire cross section in one go, the shallow profile of the main arch wouldn't be self supporting).
There's an animation of construction sequence included in the channel 7 news clip (post #1630).

Facebook ...

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1626581523825831939

^

To Lord Mayor Brisbane
CC: Minister for Transport M. Bailey,  DDG Translink Ms Sally Stannard

RE:REQUEST FOR NAME CHANGE OF BRISBANE METRO

2nd March 2023

Good Morning,

I have not received a response to my letter of the 23 December 2022 from the Brisbane Lord Mayor. A hard copy was posted to the Brisbane Lord Mayor as well.

Copy attached. 

You may not agree with our suggestions, but frankly just ignoring what is a very reasonable request based on reality stamps you as elitist fools.
It is little wonder the public transport network in Brisbane and SEQ is in serious trouble.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

QuoteTo Lord Mayor Brisbane
CC: Minister for Transport M. Bailey,  DDG Translink Ms Sally Stannard

Date 23-Dec-22 11:42:06 PM
Subject REQUEST FOR NAME CHANGE OF BRISBANE METRO

Please find attached correspondence for the Lord Mayor of Brisbane.

Thank you.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Finally some sort of response:

3rd March 2023

Acknowledgement of contact to the Lord Mayor

Dear Mr Dow

Thank you for your emails below about the naming of the Brisbane Metro. We appreciate your time and suggestions to help make Brisbane even better and apologise for the delay in providing you with a formal response.

Please be assured that your email is being considered and a response provided in due course.

Kind regards

Lord Mayor's Administration and Engagement|BRISBANE CITY COUNCIL

====

 

To be fair...when BCC first proposed the "metro" they did plan a rubber wheeled tracked system.....something along the lines of Paris - in very general terms.

As typical, the current Qld State Govt gave ZERO support to this type of transit initative...they love buses, cause they is cheap...cheap....and were begrudgingly happy to see BCC embrass it's super buses plan.

Yes, it was was the rubber tyre Paris metro like, Quirk's Folly, that laid the seed for the inappropriate Metro name.
Something we destroyed rather quickly at the time.

Having to force them to justify their name of bus rapid transit as a metro, is just highlighting again how far off track public transport is in brisBANE and SEQ generally.  Frankly, it is past embarrassment, just major incompetence and misrepresentation now.

It will be interesting, their reasons for continuing to use the name " Metro " when it is clearly not.

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1631720753682071558

Everyone gets this issue back-the-front...three cheers for the BCC "having a go"....you might not like it...but try getting an empty paper-bag of progress out of the current state govt!!!

It's the entire structure that's flat-out wrong, the BCC which wants to advance things, can't [and doesn't] "do rail", the state, which for some crazy reason still runs SEQ's trains like it's 1950 [which I think it mentally is for most of them], doesn't even have the ambition to buy a model train set when it comes to advancing rail! 

The Qld gov still carries on about CRR like it's the beginning, middle and end of human progress.....a bunch of dithering dimwits!   

Both as bad as each other BCC killed of the bus redesign and everything is always about  politics!  Both are killing active and public transport. I see them as Dumb and Dumber. Can argue over who is who I guess!

" car free Olympics "

Quote from: ozbob on March 05, 2023, 09:11:52 AM" car free Olympics "

    

Quote from: achiruel on March 05, 2023, 10:36:16 AM

Quote from: ozbob on March 05, 2023, 09:11:52 AM" car free Olympics "

    

Is that the method of transportation???

Take your pick, flying pigs or flying taxis 

They'll both be equally useless at moving large numbers of people!

Quote from: achiruel on March 06, 2023, 09:02:55 AMThey'll both be equally useless at moving large numbers of people!

I think I have it. The next big transport revolution... A tunnel boring machine! Think about it. It can hold a lot of people and it travels... 30 metres per day. It would still be faster than going down the Bruce during the Olympics!

Adelaide Street tunnel animation

"An animation of the Brisbane Metro's Adelaide Street tunnel. The new 225m long tunnel will connect the South East Busway and the Inner Northern Busway through the upgraded King George Square station, enhancing the city's connectivity through improved bus operations.  As part of these works, Council will also deliver improvements to Adelaide Street, including pedestrian and streetscape upgrades from North Quay to Edward Street, as part of Council's Adelaide Street Vision."

https://twitter.com/tamhus8/status/1635572756472537089

https://twitter.com/tamhus8/status/1635804676791861249

It is not as though we haven't warned them ....   

QuoteThe busway - er sorry, metro - will become saturated again in another 10 years. What do we do at that point?

Build more public transport lines on the southside overall to take pressure off the busway.

The busway is the equivalent of the Merivale Bridge, one piece of infrastructure handling all movements from the south and east.

Quote from: Gazza on March 16, 2023, 08:40:10 AM

QuoteThe busway - er sorry, metro - will become saturated again in another 10 years. What do we do at that point?

Build more public transport lines on the southside overall to take pressure off the busway.

The busway is the equivalent of the Merivale Bridge, one piece of infrastructure handling all movements from the south and east.

Agreed. Building the Salisbury to Beaudesert rail line would take massive amounts of pressure off the 130, 140 and 150  (and other routes in the 130-159 range).

Quote from: Gazza on March 16, 2023, 08:40:10 AM

QuoteThe busway - er sorry, metro - will become saturated again in another 10 years. What do we do at that point?

Build more public transport lines on the southside overall to take pressure off the busway.

The busway is the equivalent of the Merivale Bridge, one piece of infrastructure handling all movements from the south and east.

I fundamentally agree, but where?

The Flagstone only really diverts from the 130 and 140 and friends and while they collectively are a lot, only a little over half their boardings come from Altandi or further south - and the Altandi stop shows very little transfer to rail. These buses literally cross a rail line with express service and we can't even make that work?

A Logan Rd - Mains Rd light metro subway would maximise patronage diversion but also be very costly. M1 RFR could divert a fair chunk of Logan, the 150, the Mt Gravatt area - but again it's only a limited solution and its main purpose is Goldie speedup.

I think it's pretty imperative to start transitioning the Eastern Transitway corridor to longer buses since it's got the least prospects for anything else. You think "it's only got two BUZes" and that's true but it's also got the 204, 209 and 250. #Metro's Superbus plan from 2014 is no less relevant a decade later.

If you look at Chermside BRT up Gympie Road the P90 estimate is $1.3 billion.

That is bargain value!

Cost estimates for rail projects are 10x this, which means they need to bring in 10x the public benefit to be on equal footing to the BRT option.

That is an extremely high bar to meet.

For this reason I believe BCC will rapidly expand Brisbane Metro BRT aggressively to expand capacity before considering rail options.

Does anyone know how many bi-artics can be recharged at one time at the rapid charge facilities?

To maintain the headways I think it needs to be at least four.  It takes six minutes to flash charge.

The Rochedale depot will have 5 flash chargers, more interested in number at Herston, Petrie Terrace and UQ.

Quote from: aldonius on March 16, 2023, 10:26:28 AM

Quote from: Gazza on March 16, 2023, 08:40:10 AM

QuoteThe busway - er sorry, metro - will become saturated again in another 10 years. What do we do at that point?

Build more public transport lines on the southside overall to take pressure off the busway.

The busway is the equivalent of the Merivale Bridge, one piece of infrastructure handling all movements from the south and east.

I fundamentally agree, but where?

The Flagstone only really diverts from the 130 and 140 and friends and while they collectively are a lot, only a little over half their boardings come from Altandi or further south - and the Altandi stop shows very little transfer to rail. These buses literally cross a rail line with express service and we can't even make that work?

A Logan Rd - Mains Rd light metro subway would maximise patronage diversion but also be very costly. M1 RFR could divert a fair chunk of Logan, the 150, the Mt Gravatt area - but again it's only a limited solution and its main purpose is Goldie speedup.

I think it's pretty imperative to start transitioning the Eastern Transitway corridor to longer buses since it's got the least prospects for anything else. You think "it's only got two BUZes" and that's true but it's also got the 204, 209 and 250. #Metro's Superbus plan from 2014 is no less relevant a decade later.

Agree that there needs to be multiple corridors rather than just a single corridor.  My only additional comment is that our active and public transport mode share base is so low that when we apply a Vision and Validate approach particularly across all the major corridors like Eastern Corridor/Old Cleveland Rd the busway in its current form just doesn't do the heavy lifting it will need to do even in conjunction with the other corridors in play.   Ang the return for the current BERT investment is pretty low.  Yes doing it right will cost much more but it also comes with a better return on investment. In fact the current BERT is likely to have not ROI.

Scarcity- the more something costs, the less of that something you will have to play with.

The problem with the current approaches is that it puts high value on in infrastructure and low value on operations.

But it's operations, particularly in the off peak, are where the greatest patronage gains are to be had.

That's why we have low mode share.

Quote from: #Metro on March 16, 2023, 11:37:56 AMIf you look at Chermside BRT up Gympie Road the P90 estimate is $1.3 billion.

That is bargain value!

Cost estimates for rail projects are 10x this, which means they need to bring in 10x the public benefit to be on equal footing to the BRT option.

That is an extremely high bar to meet.

For this reason I believe BCC will rapidly expand Brisbane Metro BRT aggressively to expand capacity before considering rail options.

Once again not addressing the fundamental issues with a BRT to Chermside. Actually. Can a metro bendy bus even use the inbound platform at Lutyche? I don't think it actually can. Last time I had a look only 2/3 of the platform was available as buses strike each other when passing.

Quote from: ozbob on March 16, 2023, 13:44:37 PMDoes anyone know how many bi-artics can be recharged at one time at the rapid charge facilities?

To maintain the headways I think it needs to be at least four.  It takes six minutes to flash charge.

The Rochedale depot will have 5 flash chargers, more interested in number at Herston, Petrie Terrace and UQ.

Found it. " 15 x 600 kW flash charging at end of route locations ". 
https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/traffic-and-transport/public-transport/brisbane-metro/metros

So appears there will be 5 flash chargers each at Herston, Petrie Terrace and UQ.

Quote from: #Metro on March 16, 2023, 14:03:04 PMScarcity- the more something costs, the less of that something you will have to play with.

The problem with the current approaches is that it puts high value on in infrastructure and low value on operations.

But it's operations, particularly in the off peak, are where the greatest patronage gains are to be had.

That's why we have low mode share.

1 part of a whole bag of poor city and transport planning mistakes starting with using predict and provide modelling.  None of this is mutually exclusive.  Just needs a Transport Minster and Council of Mayors who don't love "busting congestion" with more roads".

The fact that prospective passengers find a car more convenient than a 10 min walk to the stop, followed by a 30 min wait, followed by 30 min ride, followed by another 10 min walk isn't a modelling failure.

It's a proper reflection of the true inconvenience of PT as it is currently supplied - slow & infrequent.

" .. Last week I couldn't contain my praise for
@sydneymetro
. This week I present
@brisbanecityqld's Brisbane Metro. Fmd what a joke. "

This derision will continue for as long as BRT is presented as a ' Metro '.

BCC et al are completely out of touch on this.  Real shame.

Brisbane Metro BRT videos

Cr Ryan Murphy says in this video "That the network needs to move to a trunk and feeder system" 
and then also says "That all the Metro needs to run is a bus lane, and we can paint bus lanes anywhere".


Video of the bus driving on the Gateway Motorway (not in a bus lane) and in Mt Coot-tha quarry.

"Following the successful testing campaign, Council ordered the remaining fleet of 59 metros."

Quote from: timh on April 20, 2023, 20:33:09 PM

Quote from: RowBro on April 20, 2023, 18:03:14 PM

Quote from: #Metro on April 20, 2023, 17:19:11 PMJonno, I also think a two mode, two phase strategy has advantages that are nothing to do with technical or operational aspects.

A BRT-first project might be more politically acceptable to the community than an LRT-first project. Once the BRT volumes start going up, transition is incremental - you would just add the poles, wires and track to the BRT ROW to get your LRT.

     

Clearly something went wrong with the Busways in Brisbane.

Correct. While the first ever built section from Mater Hill to Wooloongabba was built to standards for an upgrade to light rail in mind (turn radii, grades), the rest of the busway was not. You would need substantial work, particularly on the inner city sections, to make the grades appropriate for a light rail vehicle. Hence why the choice of the Metro BRT vehicle is a sensible solution given the prohibitively expensive alternative

Humour me here.

Gradient

Light Rail

https://www.lightrailnow.org/myths/m_mythlog001.htm

"Rubber-tired vehicles such as buses have incrementally better traction on dry pavement, but significantly lower traction in wet, icy, or snowy conditions. Furthermore, electric light rail transit (LRT) railcars – including streetcars (trams) – are capable of negotiating much steeper grades than is commonly assumed and included in system designs.

In general, it advisable to minimize grades on any new transit system as much as possible. However, where necessary (to access critical sections of a city, to contain costs, or for other reasons), LRT can handle grades as steep as 12% (depending on vehicle design, motor power, and other technical capabilities). Here are some examples:

Europe

• Sheffield – short section on 10% grade, and others at 9%. Articulated tramcars operate without any problem on these grades, on a daily basis. All axles on the cars are powered to enable operation on such gradients.
• Würzburg – operation on approximately 10.8% grade.
• Nordhausen – the tramway, located in this small city on the south side of the Harz hills range, negotiates a 9.8% grade in Stolberger Strasse for about 500 meters.

USA

• Boston – C-Commonwealth Avenue streetcar line has a gradient of more than 8%.
• Portland – MAX LRT system has a 7% grade on the ramp leading from Second Avenue onto the Steel Bridge.
• Little Rock – River Rail streetcar line between Little Rock and North Little Rock climbs a gradient of 7.8% on the approach to the Main St. bridge over the Arkansas River.
• San Francisco – grades of 9% on the J-Church and L-Taraval streetcar lines of the Municipal Railway.
• Pittsburgh – Route 52-Arlington has a grade of 10%, routinely negotiated by modern Siemens and CAF articulated interurban-type railcars."

Light Metro

https://www.railjournal.com/passenger/metros/alstom-launches-low-cost-metro-system/

"Axonis is able to cope with 45m-radius curves and 6% gradients".

Question? Is there a gradient greater than 6%  (1m in 16.67m) on the Busway route?  I would have to say I doubt it.

Curves

Light Rail

https://bathtrams.uk/arguments-for-trams/5531-2/

"Bendibuses have a minimum turning radius of 22m. So if a bendibus can get around corners in Bath, a City Class benditram able to turn around 15m radius, certainly can".

Metro

see above

The only "route curves" that come to mind as challenging would be the

• Melbourne Street portal (which should be replaced anyway as its a massive choke point).
• turn to the east at Buranda onto the eastern busway.
• curve west of Boggo Road Bus Station into the tunnel.

First 2 could be treated in any conversion.

I'll ignore turn arounds and other portals as in both a Light Rail or Metro system they become no longer required.[/li][/list]

Yes stations are a separate discussion but the curve and curve raidii regularly used as a "can't be done".

Am I missing something?

Thanks for the material Jonno.

Replacing BRT with LRT on the SEB would just be an exercise in swapping rubber tyre vehicles for steel wheel trams for $ billions with no real net increase in capacity.

The need here is to go to the next level in the capacity hierarchy - actual rail-based metro. This would require heavy rail, not light, configured as a metro. I think we can rule out a 1000-pax Sydney Metro train going across the Victoria Bridge with either OHW or electric third rail because it demands Priority A ROW with no shared intersections with traffic.

For this reason, under a ROW conversion scenario, I think a tunnel and underground metro stations would be required going from Woolloongabba into the CBD with the section Woolloongabba-Cultural Centre retained as busway.