RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Just do a triple for the time being.
It should be possible to to run both express and all stop counter peak on the same track given how quick trains will clear the section from Strathpine to Alderley.

Quote from: RowBro on January 16, 2023, 14:33:22 PM

Quote from: SurfRail on January 16, 2023, 12:02:48 PM^ I don't know that there would be any massive advantage in that.  Every train along this alignment needs to feed into CRR, along with whatever trains are still serving Exhibition.  That probably limits you to only 14-16tph (maybe 10-12 Caboolture and 4 Sunshine Coast) with the Kippa-Ring trains continuing to use the mains to Albion then via Ekka.  Why not just stop at all stops on the NWTC, given there will be relatively few anyway and the alignment is straight?

Perth doesn't put on expresses to Mandurah or Butler for the same reasoning, just more frequent services closer in (Cockburn Central - Whitfords).

It's possible to have express trains bypass the CRR tunnel portal and instead terminate at Roma Street. This would be useful for long distance services (and potentially increasing the number of tilts) and Gympie North services. Perhaps even CAMCOS would terminate at Roma Street. That being said I don't think there would be enough of a time saving to justify running express to skip 2 stops and even less so to have 4 tracks the whole way unless the intention is for freight to use it.

It's certainly possible but would require the use of Platform 10 so as not to foul Platforms 8/9, so in peak hour would not be advisable. 

If we eventually have a bi-mode long distance fleet that can run under the wires from Rockhampton to Brisbane (even if going further), I expect long distance trains could go via the NWTC - any tunnel component likely would not be engineered for anything other than electrics.  They need all the time saving they can get.

In this far off future I'd see the long distance services consist of the following:

- Westlander and Inlander - dead, replaced by buses and planes and resources spent elsewhere more usefully.  Brisbane to Toowoomba would have a proper passenger service where some might extending further west but probably nothing further than say Roma, but it could be served at least once daily instead of the current useless offering.

- SOTO - running from Rockhampton to Longreach on a more regular schedule (say 5 a week instead of only twice), and possibly to Winton, integrated with the Outback Rail Adventures mob.

- More regular services between Brisbane and Rockhampton - say at least 4 trains a day to Rockhampton, and a train every 2 hours or so to Bundaberg.

- At least 2 daily Brisbane to Cairns services every day of the week.

- Additional short services on the NCL centred on Mackay, Townsville and Cairns at useful times.

- Suburban services in Cairns and Townsville.

- Branch lines:

-- Maryborough to Hervey Bay (reconfigure the network around Maryborough to put a "new" Maryborough West parkway station closer to town served by the NCL - run local trains from the old Maryborough station to the new parkway station, up the NCL to the old Colton junction and build an alignment from there to just south of the Eli Waters shops).  I'd say this would be the big priority because it would work as a direct to Brisbane route.

-- Rockhampton to Yeppoon.

-- Proserpine to Cannonvale.

- Progressive realignment of the NCL to get to 160km/h or as close to as possible, and increase the minimum passing loop length to 1,800m

- Progressively string up more wires further north than Rockhampton, which with bi-mode trains might not even necessarily need to be contiguous.

- Proper sleeper offerings.

We can dream of course...

Everyone also needs to remember the NWTC is not the holy grail for speed increases.

A triple will get you out of trouble for a very long time. And without a doubt Gympie-Brisbane services will be killed off in favour of network and rollingstock operations.

You'll also very unlikely be in a position to max out the mains and crr with a 9 car fleet. P10 could still be problematic in peak as every second Roma street service already uses it to terminate. Given these normal services would be going via crr only once network timetabling is done would you know the answer. And even then you'll have to consider Ipswich/Springfield to Bowen Hills terminators.

And even if you do go full quad the time savings can be quite minimal/if any depending how the exhibition line is connected to the NWTC especially when the existing main/sub crossovers at Bowen Hills can be improved to vastly increase transit times in that area. For those that don't know on the mains you can get close to Wooloowin before the train on the subs arrives at Albion despite leaving Bowen Hills at the same time. This is also reversed for inbound where the express trains on the mains are only about 30 seconds faster than the all stoppers but timetabled for 1 minute spacing at Bowen Hills. Fun fact delayed Shorncliffe-Cleveland services in peak can at times be thrown onto the mains to overtake congestion on the subs through the city rejoining the subs after Roma Street.

Quote from: SurfRail on January 16, 2023, 12:02:48 PM^ I don't know that there would be any massive advantage in that.  Every train along this alignment needs to feed into CRR, along with whatever trains are still serving Exhibition.

For some reason I had the idea that local NWTC trains would be feeding into the inner FG line, but upon checking I have no idea where this came from so ignore that!

^ Certainly possible but would be enormously expensive to set that up as against a line just passing underneath, and a much slower journey via Windsor.

The question for me around the post-2025 northside network remains "how do we use the spare capacity on the Subs properly?". We can't have CRR, Mains and Subs sectors all going through Albion when it's only got the four tracks. Everything I've thought of so far has its drawbacks too.

0. 5th and 6th tracks north to serve the Airport & Doomben lines (brownfields new track pair ugh)

1. Local-NWTC-only into the Ferny line uses the Subs directly but it has to go via Windsor

2. Express-NWTC with a tunnel provides a new track pair from CRR to Strathpine, but likely leaves Exhibition unused again (you don't want to start tunnelling east of there for an NWTC alignment, and from a sectorisation perspective you don't want to run some CRR services via Albion and others via McDowall)

3. Ditch a lot of through-routing and run the Mains as western lines only (~no capacity gain for F/S/A/D but possibly better for the west)

4. Put some trains via Milton on the subs through the city somehow

I'd say #1 is least bad from a network perspective but curious to see journey times relative to current from McDowall etc.  You also end up with capacity constraints at Park Road again if any of these services are going south via Dutton Park.

You'd have to build some sort of whopping junction at Everton Park / Alderley to facilitate this and a direct run to the Ekka loop.

Quote from: aldonius on January 17, 2023, 11:00:47 AM2. Express-NWTC with a tunnel provides a new track pair from CRR to Strathpine, but likely leaves Exhibition unused again (you don't want to start tunnelling east of there for an NWTC alignment, and from a sectorisation perspective you don't want to run some CRR services via Albion and others via McDowall)

Is there a specific reason you wouldn't want to start tunneling directly after Exhibition, or is it just funky geometry? I feel like that's the only "clean" way to do things without instantly making our shiny new Exhibition station into a weird stub.

On a more general note, I do think running NWTC locals via FG isn't a terrible idea. The time difference doesn't seem like it would be that terrible, and it prevents the subs sitting mostly unused

Considerably shorter distance.  If you could tunnel from that point you'd probably be better off aiming at Chermside.

Immediately east of Exhibition is the Clem7 tunnel, so we probably have to wait until O'Connell Tce to start the dive proper (kinda lucky that the Clem7 isn't even further east). So by the point of the dive being able to really leave the corridor you're somewhere in the southern part of Mayne yards.

Here's the thing. Once you're underground at Mayne yards, it's a 1 km shorter tunnel to get to the Airport line junction than it is to get to Everton Park and the start of the NWTC corridor. But then again, if going to the Airport junction is back on the table, you can probably get a 5th and 6th track across Breakfast Creek to Albion and dig a much shorter tunnel from there. Of course, that does nothing for NWTC.

Or, of course, you could dig a longer tunnel and head via Chermside.

I suppose it's also possible to dive in Victoria Park immediately east of the current portal, build a new underground Exhibition station at right angles to the existing line, and then head northwest.

---

I think it's pretty likely (if a very long way off) that we'll eventually see something like 8tph all-stops Kuraby trains via the Merivale Bridge.

There's a lot that would need to happen before then though: increased peak demand generally, Gold Coast line extension to the border, the Flagstone/Beaudesert line, quadding at least as far as Salisbury, perhaps a Pinelands express tunnel too, and a need to maximise 9-car usage through CRR in the face of constrained existing stations.

Quote from: aldonius on January 17, 2023, 15:40:15 PMImmediately east of Exhibition is the Clem7 tunnel, so we probably have to wait until O'Connell Tce to start the dive proper (kinda lucky that the Clem7 isn't even further east). So by the point of the dive being able to really leave the corridor you're somewhere in the southern part of Mayne yards.

Here's the thing. Once you're underground at Mayne yards, it's a 1 km shorter tunnel to get to the Airport line junction than it is to get to Everton Park and the start of the NWTC corridor. But then again, if going to the Airport junction is back on the table, you can probably get a 5th and 6th track across Breakfast Creek to Albion and dig a much shorter tunnel from there. Of course, that does nothing for NWTC.

Or, of course, you could dig a longer tunnel and head via Chermside.

I suppose it's also possible to dive in Victoria Park immediately east of the current portal, build a new underground Exhibition station at right angles to the existing line, and then head northwest.

---

I think it's pretty likely (if a very long way off) that we'll eventually see something like 8tph all-stops Kuraby trains via the Merivale Bridge.

There's a lot that would need to happen before then though: increased peak demand generally, Gold Coast line extension to the border, the Flagstone/Beaudesert line, quadding at least as far as Salisbury, perhaps a Pinelands express tunnel too, and a need to maximise 9-car usage through CRR in the face of constrained existing stations.

Let's call it a SEQ Public Transport Vision

You would need to know the infrastructure (eg Beaudesert spur, sunny coast line, Nambour/Gympie north shuttles, fg flyover and crr flyover or Alderley-CRR Roma Street via Victoria Park or Mayne yard redevelopment), stabling and rollingstock to make decent educated guesses as there are too many rolling variables that can really vastly change ideas in an instant. Future network running can/will prevent a large portion of transferring to the subs. This being 9 car trains. Dakabin stabling will impact if and how the Petrie starters/terminators run and how that impacts on Redcliffe running patterns going express or remaining all stopping either via Northgate or NWTC. And depending on how many stops there are it's possible they could be added onto the long distance lines that have 9 cars (depending on Alderley-City connection). You loose express running but you gain capacity. Strathpine is no longer a future terminus but instead that has been moved to Petrie. But in saying that Newman has stuffed that a little.

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on January 17, 2023, 18:43:32 PMthere are too many rolling variables that can really vastly change ideas in an instant

Absolutely. I try to think in terms of "what will it take to effectively saturate the CBD infrastructure we'll have once CRR opens?"

It's a heck of a lot - as you say, 9 car trains will hold off capacity issues for a long time - but I'm looking beyond that to when even 9 car trains aren't enough and we're forced to shift things back to the subs (and/or dig another tunnel through the city).

It does seems like we will get there eventually (in 30-50 years). Population growth and density changes are been pretty consistent, we have a good idea of where new and extended lines will go, what a reasonable service level would be for them, and so on.

Now as you say the NWTC in particular could take a lot of different forms because the timeframe is so distant and it does touch on several distinct issues (how best to serve its local area, changing the network topology, express speed-ups). So I agree, we can't say any one approach is The Way To Do It, only what might make sense under specific circumstances.

You can probably have a manifesto on the different amounts of network configuration and running haha.

Brisbanetimes --> Brisbane's northside needs new rail corridor, says minister

QuoteA new rail line is needed for Brisbane's northside in the "medium term" to cope with population growth, Transport Minister Mark Bailey has acknowledged.

"We've got that one spine rail link coming in from the Sunshine Coast that has a number [of other rail lines] that flow into it," he said.

"But clearly, when you're looking at the medium term, you'll need a second rail corridor coming into Brisbane."

Bailey said Brisbane's southside has three rail lines, while there is a sole Sunshine Coast line.

"The southside has three different rail corridors coming in from Ipswich, the Gold Coast and the Cleveland line," he said. "But really, there's only one from the north and, over time, that's not sustainable." ...

New underground rail stations could be built at Everton Park and Bridgeman Downs on a western underground rail line from Albion to Strathpine or at Chermside under an eastern link from Albion to Carseldine.
NORTH WEST TRANSPORT CORRIDOR BUSINESS CASE AUGUST 2022

 

All well and good to say once CRR is finished we can then look at extensions.  Where are the plans showing that that is happening?

^ yep, too little, far too late .....

Quote from: ozbob on January 18, 2023, 00:32:05 AMBrisbanetimes --> Brisbane's northside needs new rail corridor, says minister


Bailey said Brisbane's southside has three rail lines, while there is a sole Sunshine Coast line.

"The southside has three different rail corridors coming in from Ipswich, the Gold Coast and the Cleveland line," he said. "But really, there's only one from the north and, over time, that's not sustainable." ...

If the only northern line is the Sunshine Coast line, where do the FG and Shorncliffe lines go? 

Perhaps if the Minister is so concerned, he should pay attention to make that existing single train line to and from the Sunshine Coast the most efficient it can be before picking up a new bauble to dazzle us with -- a second line north. As welcome as that would be, the here-and-now reality is a SCL that is chronically under-funded. Fixing what we have now should be the priority.

While roadworks associated with the Beerburrum-Beerwah (should be Landsborough North) Upgrade are underway, there is no movement yet on actual rail track realignment and improvements. A fed-state funding bunfight is looming re Beerwah-Nambour. CAMCOS/Direct Sunshine Coast Line is stuck in the business case stage (i.e. dreaming) and, if anything will happen there before the Olympics in 2032 (is that the 'medium term'?), the best that could be hoped for would be a line terminating at Caloundra -- or 'towards the coast' as the vague destination Mr Bailey states. It is a bit like a Redcliffe train that terminates not at Redcliffe, but at Kippa-Ring. The 'Maroochydore Line' is the Caloundra train at best.

The Nautilus Study that would have shed some light on public transport solutions north of Nambour came and went without seeing the light of day. The state government killed it off, but not before spending millions on it.

The Brisbane-Gympie North rail corridor is being assessed in a 'pre-investment planning study'. Its the study you have before you say what you intend to invest in, before you actually plan, design, invest and build.

There is a very clear pattern of successive state governments holding out hope that something will be done, or a new assessment process is about to begin -- short of actual commitment to a timeline and budget. Only part of the solution is being funded atm.

Perhaps the SEQ City Deal will see some progress, but government decisions made without the wisdom of an advisory Olympic Games management team will have us throwing the big bucks at costly stadiums without an associated framework for a fast rail network across SEQ, including new lines to Ipswich via Ripley and/or to Beaudesert ... possibly even Toowoomba. Are they needed in the 'medium term' too? And what are the competing priorities? In what order, and when?

The state government constantly seems to be thinking about stuff and creating the impression that good things are down the track, which is all fair and good, but how to fund it? A state government property tax should be on the cards, but we do not hear state governments talking about new taxes with the same enthusiasm as they do about the potential purchases that require new sources of funding to make them happen. 'Canberra should pay' is a worn line. It doesn't get us anywhere beyond CRR, which the government is pushing heavily in the absence of real progress on anything else.

Sent to all outlets:

RAIL Back On Track Supports a new rail corridor to the Northside.

18th January 2023

RAIL Back On Track has long supported a new rail line linking the CBD, Alderley and Strathpine via the North West Transport Corridor (NWTC) so it is refreshing to hear recent comments from Transport Minister Mark Bailey supporting this project. [Brisbane's northside needs new rail corridor, says minister https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-s-northside-needs-new-rail-corridor-says-minister-20230117-p5cd8d.html]

The NWTC is a 60m to 80m wide corridor reserved through the northside that has sat unused for several decades, running through Everton Park, McDowall,  Aspley, Carseldine and Bald Hills. NWTC has been previously known as the "Trouts Rd Corridor". More recent transport plans have identified the ability for this corridor to be used for rail.

A potential rail line could branch off Cross River rail near Victoria Park and tunnel to reach Alderley.  The line could then run above ground, with a second tunnel passing under the environmentally sensitive Chermside Hills reserve. Emerging from the tunnel, the line would continue north and link with the existing Caboolture line near Strathpine.

This corridor is significant because it allows several problems to be solved at once:

1. New Stations on the Northside

Currently there is no mass transit in a large chunk of North West of Brisbane. These are suburbs west of Gympie Road that are not captured by the Ferny Grove line, and not covered by the Northern Busway.
Stations along this new line would put mass transit closer to more people. Also, the grid of East West roads makes it ideal for providing a logical network of feeder buses.
Potential station locations could include:

-Stafford Rd
-Rode Rd
-Albany Creek Rd
-Linkfield Rd

2. A faster route to the Sunshine Coast

The NWTC follows a more direct route North South compared to the dogleg of the current line swinging out towards Virgina. This would allow time savings for trains from the Moreton Bay Region and the Sunshine Coast (Including the planned line to Maroochydore)
By providing express tracks along the NWTC, express trains will get a clearer run in and out of Brisbane, with more capacity and reliability.

3. More Capacity for Freight

The existing route via Virginia has three tracks. If rail on the NWTC was built the third spare track could be dedicated to freight only, (since express passenger trains would be routed via the NWTC instead)

These three combined benefits makes it one of the greatest "bang for buck" SEQ could embark upon.

The project has strong public support too. In March 2022 BCC published the findings of their "North west transport network program business case (1)", which found a rail line had the highest level of support, with a new road having the highest level of opposition. Notably: "Feedback provided indicated that the community broadly does not see new roads as the solution to the transport problems in the north-west and that a move to public transport is preferred."

Reference:

1.  North west transport network program business case
https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2022-08/20220809-north-west-tranport-network-community-consultation-report-stage2.pdf

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

QuotePerhaps if the Minister is so concerned, he should pay attention to make that existing single train line to and from the Sunshine Coast the most efficient it can be before picking up a new bauble to dazzle us with -- a second line north. As welcome as that would be, the here-and-now reality is a SCL that is chronically under-funded. Fixing what we have now should be the priority.

Like at this point, ANY new rail line is welcome.
There's nothing on the horizon I'd regard as a white elephant.

Facebook ...

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1615516584042459136

The really disappointing thing but 1000% not surprising is the Minister sees it as a Medium Term project because he still believes in "artificial" caps on public transport usage and thus there has to be massive growth in population and traffic/congestion before it is needed. It like the old Merrivale Bridge will reach peak capacity in 2026...only based on his Department not running trains to the maximum physical capacity of the bridge again because the "demand isn't there"   He is so Out of Touch he is incompetent. 

Brisbanetimes --> 'My boss is pretty keen': Minister says Canberra happy to discuss Brisbane rail funding

Quote"My boss is pretty keen on rail."

With those words from the federal infrastructure minister in Brisbane on Wednesday – her "boss" being Prime Minister Anthony Albanese – a new rail line into Brisbane from the north could be firming with support from Canberra. ...

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1615715756335050752

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1633112105980162048

Quote from: ozbob on March 08, 2023, 00:30:22 AMhttps://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1633112105980162048

Entirely unsuprised that this got rejected. BCC needs to scrap the motorway idea entirely and do a proper planning study on using the NWTC for rail transit - rail can dodge the ecologically sensitive areas by going over/under, the ecological damage of another motorway is a lot harder to avoid.

Sent to all outlets:

Infrastructure Australia Rejects BCC NWTC Proposal

8th March 2023

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) welcomes reports that Infrastructure Australia has rejected Brisbane City Council's (BCC) proposal for a road tunnel for the North West Transport Corridor (NWTC)(1).  RAIL Back On Track members are not surprised.

Brisbane City Council's proposal was a failure of critical thinking and evaluation. For example, BCC claimed on Page 17 of its business case that packaging a North West Motorway with Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) on Gympie Road were complementary initiatives. And that without the delivery of a North West Motorway, " a BRT in the form proposed is not feasible due to its impact on road capacity ... " (2).

In our opinion, this key claim made by BCC is false (3).

A 'Brisbane Metro' BRT service up Gympie Road would absorb all of the motorists from the resumed car lane, and still have spare capacity to absorb public transport passengers. No North West Motorway is required. A 'Brisbane Metro' BRT service operating every 2 minutes with 150 passengers on board would carry around 4500 passengers/hour/direction at peak. In comparison, a general car lane carries around 2160 passengers/hour/lane at peak.

In our opinion, the true purpose of including an unnecessary and unwanted North West Motorway in the business case was to psychologically compensate motorists for the loss of a car lane. And to prevent motorists shifting mode to catching buses.

Council should focus on adding bus lanes to roads in Brisbane's Northwest and restart its successful BUZ programme. If the current council administration cannot do this, perhaps a new administration will.

RAIL Back On Track supports a new rail corridor to the Northside. For full details see https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=266857

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

References:

1. 'Back to the  drawing board': North-west tunnel proposal rejected
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/queensland/back-to-the-drawing-board-north-west-brisbane-tunnel-proposal-rejected-20230307-p5cq7n.html

2. North west transport network program business case
https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2022-08/20220809-north-west-transport-network-making-it-happen.pdf

3. Capacity Calculations - Car
3600 seconds/hour divided by 2 second car spacing = 1800 vehicles/hour/lane
If 20% of the cars have a passenger, this is then 1800 vehicles/hour/lane x 1.2
= 2160 passengers/hour/direction (pphd).

4. Capacity Calculations - Brisbane Metro Bus
60 minutes / 2 minute bus frequency x 150 passengers/bus
= 4500 passengers/hour/direction

5. Gympie Road Lane Removal Scenario
Bus 4500 pphd - Car 2160 pphd = 2340 pphd spare capacity on the bus left after all the displaced motorists fill the bus.
Conclusion - No Northwest Motorway Construction required.

Facebook ...

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1633172252161355779

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1633172523276972045

Team Schrinner et al not happy ... 

====

https://twitter.com/team_schrinner/status/1633254926834077697

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1633261573379866629

=====

Ha ha,  another great demonstration why BCC needs to get out of public transport ...

Resumptions? Since when did BCC care about resumptions? Plenty of resumptions with their road projects.

Only concerned by resumptions when a road isn't involved!!

Quote from: #Metro on March 08, 2023, 10:49:02 AMResumptions? Since when did BCC care about resumptions? Plenty of resumptions with their road projects.

Only concerned by resumptions when a road isn't involved!!

At least all the comments so far are people seeing past the charade.

Couriermail --> Infrastructure Australia rejects bid for traffic-busting Brisbane corridor $

Quote...State Transport Minister Mark Bailey described IA's decision as an embarrassment for Council, which he said had deliberately cut his Government and Moreton Bay Regional Council (MBRC) out of the study.

"The cigar has blown up in Lord Mayor (Adrian) Schrinner's face,'' Mr Bailey said.

"Since January last year, how many pieces of correspondence did my office receive from Lord Mayor Schrinner about this? Zero. None. Nada.

"The LNP council, with the connivance of former Prime Minister Scott Morrison, wasted $10 million of taxpayer's money with this worthless study that cut the State Government out of the process deliberately despite it being about our corridor.  ...

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1633310657209847809

Facebook ...

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1633319620764639232