RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development, Communications and the Arts
' Cities Research - South East Queensland research project '
https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/research-data/bureau-communications-arts-and-regional-research/regions-and-cities/cities-research

Implications of growth and conclusion: https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/bcarr-seq-report-chapter-10.pdf  page 248

QuoteCommuter travel in SEQ is currently very car dependent, with the areas that are projected to grow most strongly over the next two decades typically having very low public transport use. Significant and timely investment in public transport will help reduce congestion and manage the impacts of growth on the existing road network.

Sent to all outlets:

It's time! Public Transport Queensland, come on down!!

20th December 2022

Greetings,

Lots of great suggestions on our Santa Christmas Wish List Facebook post at https://railbotforum.org/yourls/3e

Feedback confirms that we need for start focussing a lot more on improved public and active transport in SEQ.

In the recent publication by Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development, Communications and the Arts ' Cities Research - South East Queensland research project ' ( https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/research-data/bureau-communications-arts-and-regional-research/regions-and-cities/cities-research ) similar sentiments are echoed.

Implications of growth and conclusion: https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/bcarr-seq-report-chapter-10.pdf  page 248

QuoteCommuter travel in SEQ is currently very car dependent, with the areas that are projected to grow most strongly over the next two decades typically having very low public transport use. Significant and timely investment in public transport will help reduce congestion and manage the impacts of growth on the existing road network.

All this is even more pressing now with the Olympics on the 2032 horizon.  We need a proper Public Transport Authority forthwith!

Doing nothing is not an option. 

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

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Let's fix up the existing network (e.g. Shorncliffe, Sunshine Coast, Cleveland, Beenleigh Line) which have been waiting for upgrades since late 1800's.

Moving forward, the Rosewood line should be looked at for development. Here you have an electrified, two-track railway 20 minutes or so trip from Ipswich.

Why is development in SEQ focused everywhere else but along an existing railway line that could be used? It doesn't make sense.

Then there are rail stations with large industrial uses next to them. With people who cannot even find rental properties due to a lack of housing, continuing these land uses makes no sense.

^Have you considered moving to Rosewood?

This is a very substantive research project.  Will take some time to fully understand it, but my preliminary glances indicate some interesting data etc.  Might help us boost the argument for improved service frequencies as much as infrastructure.  Frequency is going to drive patronage uptake, and this must be goal for 2023!

Recommendations from the review.

*Improved density in the inner core of Brisbane

*New public transport/mass transit corridors

It seems to me that that investment in fast electric rail from Coolangatta, Maroochydore, and Toowoomba to Brisbane can help alleviate traffic on our freeways. This is because people will continue to find cheaper housing along these corridors.

Faster east-west mass transit corridors e.g. the extension of the Busway from UQ to Indooroopilly can more than half east west trips. Therefore the significant time savings can help encourage people to switch modes from car to public transport.

The Springfield to Ripley can benefit from a high capacity electric BRT service implemented in the next year or two while rail planning is taking place along that corridor.

These electric buses then can be redeployed to other areas of Ipswich as that rail corridor is opened in stages.

Quote from: #Metro on December 20, 2022, 09:56:15 AMLet's fix up the existing network (e.g. Shorncliffe, Sunshine Coast, Cleveland, Beenleigh Line) which have been waiting for upgrades since late 1800's.

Moving forward, the Rosewood line should be looked at for development. Here you have an electrified, two-track railway 20 minutes or so trip from Ipswich.

Why is development in SEQ focused everywhere else but along an existing railway line that could be used? It doesn't make sense.

Then there are rail stations with large industrial uses next to them. With people who cannot even find rental properties due to a lack of housing, continuing these land uses makes no sense.

Rosewood and other Greenfield estates around that area would benefit from a regular urban style electric train from Toowoomba, as Rosewood would likely be a stop enroute.

RBOT should consider supporting some aspects of the Council's underground train idea from Albion to improve capacity and patronage heading North.

I find that there are merits in that plan.

Quote from: verbatim9 on December 20, 2022, 11:26:27 AM

Quote from: #Metro on December 20, 2022, 09:56:15 AMLet's fix up the existing network (e.g. Shorncliffe, Sunshine Coast, Cleveland, Beenleigh Line) which have been waiting for upgrades since late 1800's.

Moving forward, the Rosewood line should be looked at for development. Here you have an electrified, two-track railway 20 minutes or so trip from Ipswich.

Why is development in SEQ focused everywhere else but along an existing railway line that could be used? It doesn't make sense.

Then there are rail stations with large industrial uses next to them. With people who cannot even find rental properties due to a lack of housing, continuing these land uses makes no sense.

Rosewood and other Greenfield estates around that area would benefit from a regular urban style electric train from Toowoomba, as Rosewood would likely be a stop enroute.

I agree that there is capacity constraints on the Cleveland line. Why can't Manly station be upgraded to two island platforms with frequency improvements of 20 mins or better 7 days in the interim?

Quote from: ozbob on December 20, 2022, 10:47:34 AMThis is a very substantive research project.  Will take some time to fully understand it, but my preliminary glances indicate some interesting data etc.  Might help us boost the argument for improved service frequencies as much as infrastructure.  Frequency is going to drive patronage uptake, and this must be goal for 2023!

I think together with the recent meeting with the Minister regarding these outcomes only strengthens the case for higher density and TODs, as well as rail to Caloundra and Maroochydore as mentioned in the agenda.

QuoteRBOT should consider supporting some aspects of the Council's underground train idea from Albion to improve capacity and patronage heading North.

I find that there is merits in that plan.

I agree with you Verbatim 9. What you have described is options analysis. It is a good approach.

Jim, the permanent optimist in ABC's Utopia screenplay embodies the approach of making a project the preferred one by drumming up popularity or public support (or perhaps not talking about more boring, but effective options). It is a particular planning style seen in South East Queensland (See paper).

Tony Woodford, played by Rob Stich, has a different approach. He's coming from the multi-criteria technical analysis side. He realises that a project must sit on rational foundations. All reasonable options need to be carefully evaluated and weighed for merit. Whether a project is popular or not does not have much weight in his thinking.

Quote from: Verbatim9Rosewood and other Greenfield estates around that area would benefit from a regular urban style electric train from Toowoomba, as Rosewood would likely be a stop enroute.

That's right. If rezoning and better train service didn't induce a population boom in this area, then it would signal that we should be more skeptical of HSR proposals that base themselves on 'boom town' construction.

Paper

How Did Brisbane Get it's Busways? Findings of a study into mode-choice decision-making in Brisbane
https://australasiantransportresearchforum.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/2013_tanko_burke.pdf

QuoteThe major findings of this study indicate that transport planning depends heavily on political influence and co-option in the development of major projects. Technical analysis does not contribute significantly as it once did, and as a result planners must now learn to work within a political framework, as it has been shown that this is critical in mode choice decisions in transport planning.

In addition, even places like Ipswich can benefit from improved density and new active transport connections.

I also find that we don't capitalise on our road tunnel infrastructure. There should be incentives if using tunnels more than 6-8 times in a week. They could also introduce monthly caps. This can help alleviate through traffic in the CBD allowing for new streetscaping with enhanced active transport connections and new shared paths, thus making the CBD more walkable and cycle friendly.

People just abandon walking and cycling through the city's inner core because of constant heavy traffic and air pollution.

It is statistically proven that females abandon public transport after dusk, even with enhanced security. Daylight Saving can also improve female patronage in the early evening up to 8pm during spring, summer and early autumn months.

Quote from: #Metro on December 20, 2022, 12:08:52 PM

QuoteRBOT should consider supporting some aspects of the Council's underground train idea from Albion to improve capacity and patronage heading North.

I find that there is merits in that plan.

I agree with you Verbatim 9. What you have described is options analysis. It is a good approach.

Jim, the permanent optimist in ABC's Utopia screenplay embodies the approach of making a project the preferred one by drumming up popularity or public support (or perhaps not talking about more boring, but effective options). It is a particular planning style seen in South East Queensland (See paper).

Tony Woodford, played by Rob Stich, has a different approach. He's coming from the multi-criteria technical analysis side. He realises that a project must sit on rational foundations. All reasonable options need to be carefully evaluated and weighed for merit. Whether a project is popular or not does not have much weight in his thinking.

Paper

How Did Brisbane Get it's Busways? Findings of a study into mode-choice decision-making in Brisbane
https://australasiantransportresearchforum.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/2013_tanko_burke.pdf

QuoteThe major findings of this study indicate that transport planning depends heavily on political influence and co-option in the development of major projects. Technical analysis does not contribute significantly as it once did, and as a result planners must now learn to work within a political framework, as it has been shown that this is critical in mode choice decisions in transport planning.

Good examples how we can support project proposals based on merit. Another example being Gold Glider to Skygate and contracting BAC to run buses to the International cruise terminal. These proposals have merit that can provide significant improvement in public transport outcomes for the rapidly growing mixed use precinct.

Quote from: verbatim9 on December 20, 2022, 12:19:33 PMIn addition, even places like Ipswich can benefit from improved density and new active transport connections.

I also find that we don't capitalise on our road tunnel infrastructure. There should be incentives if using tunnels more than 6-8 times in a week. They could also introduce monthly caps. This can help alleviate through traffic in the CBD allowing for new streetscaping with enhanced active transport connections and new shared paths, thus making the CBD more walkable and cycle friendly.

People just abandon walking and cycling through the city's inner core because of constant heavy traffic and air pollution.

It is statistically proven that females abandon public transport after dusk, even with enhanced security. Daylight Saving can also improve female patronage in the early evening up to 8pm during spring, summer and early autumn months.

^^This goes with abandoning active transport modes as well.

QuoteI also find that we don't capitalise on our road tunnel infrastructure. There should be incentives if using tunnels more than 6-8 times in a week. They could also introduce monthly caps. This can help alleviate through traffic in the CBD allowing for new streetscaping with enhanced active transport connections and new shared paths, thus making the CBD more walkable and cycle friendly.

People just abandon walking and cycling through the city's inner core because of constant heavy traffic and air pollution.

Road user pricing is going to become an issue. If cars are electric, then they are not paying fuel excise tax which the Australian Government ultimately passes to states and territories to fund road projects.

Making people pay for their road use fairly is a hot potato, and has been put off for as long as possible. But with more electric cars coming onto the roads, and a funding crunch to boot, they will be forced to look at it again.

In terms of traffic through the CBD, somewhere like Ipswich has a lot of potential with eScooters and cycling, just because it didn't experience the same sprawling growth as Brisbane did. Ipswich is still fairly compact, most housing development is within 6km of the Ipswich train station (note - I have treated Springfield separately here).

eScooters and cycling just hasn't had the same prominence as other options, but it could be a really good low-cost and effective solution for mass internal/within-city transport in Ipswich. A city like Davis in California -which isn't Amsterdam in its urban form - could be a good benchmark or model for that.

I prefer the Trouts road corridor because it's getting transit further away from the Gympie Road corridor, which already has high frequency services, and as a bonus needs less tunneling and avoids the need for underground stations.

We should be reducing the distance people need to travel to reach mass transit.

And we need to get away from this mindset that the entire southside should use the SEB and the entire northside should use the Gympie Road corridor, because doing that means the journey on the feeder route is too long.

Here is the diagram we presented.


Notice that when you combine the existing rail lines, the transitway on Gympie Road and trouts road, you get quite good coverage. most people are within 2km of rail/BRT, which is an easy scooter ride, short drop off, short cycle, or under 10 mins on a bus. This would basically be the perfect outcome.

Without trouts road, the distance blows out to beyond 4km.

You can see that people around areas with already good transit get short access, but the further west you go the access distance blows out, which just isnt fair.

***************

It is a case of matching the mode to the built form too i think.

Since gympie road already has clusters of apartment buildings etc throughout its length, a rail service with limited stops under gympie road will not adequately service this area.
Eg there is limtied benefit routing the tunnel under gympie road through Kedron, Lutwyche if the only place you can board it is back up at Westfield.

On the other hand, the trouts road line is mostly low density, with pockets of spare land, so in that case you could follow the perth approach and have stops every 3 to 4km that are mostly focused on bus feeders and some local development. And then its entirely possible to run an "all stops" fast line via trouts road to Redcliffe and provide an acceptably fast service.
The corridor is cheap to build on and there is marignal time difference versus a tunnel, so a 3rd track for the sunshine coast is viable too.

And this is why the corridor has such wide support amongst RBoT members.

QuoteLet's fix up the existing network (e.g. Shorncliffe, Sunshine Coast, Cleveland, Beenleigh Line) which have been waiting for upgrades since late 1800's.

Shorncliffe - Yes this needs it's last bit duplicated. Conceded.

Sunshine Coast - Incorrect, several sections were realigned as part of main line electrification. Caboolture to Beerburrum was duplicated. Beerburrum to Beerwah is currently in progress. They haven't been waiting since the 1800s

Cleveland - Incorrect. The re extension to Cleveland was opened in 1987. Techically QR could have not opened the Cleveland extension, and in the 1980s fast tracked the Ferny Grove duplication instead. This would have fulfilled the goal of focusing on the existing network.

Beenleigh Line - Incorrect. The Beenleigh line was progressively duplicated. (Eg it was single track at trinder park in 1985, hence the head on accident that happened). In the 2000s there was a Triplication from Coopers plains to Kuraby. In the 90s to this there was triplication from Park road to Coopers plains to support the original gold coast line project.
They haven't been waiting since the 1800s

I can see both sides of the coin.
There is a need to improve what youve got, but there is also a need to build new infrastructure. Eg the South East busway was built, and probably came at the expense of other fix ups (Eg why was the SEB built instead of duplicating the Cleveland line ? or the Coomera duplication? etc) but ultimatley building it unlocked new patronage.

There is other patronage across SEQ yet to be unlocked in a similar manner, but to do this new lines serving new catchments are needed , just as the SEB did.

Very well put on both posts Gazza 

As a point of interest ' Cleveland Station ' has a very interesting history.

See > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=265919