RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Couriermail Quest --> Revealed: M1's 'missing link' plans to stop gridlock ahead of Olympics $

QuoteAn investigation into the best way to widen and improve a 10km "missing link" in the southeast's most important motorway is underway, as the state gears up for the 2032 Olympics.

The $1 billion project to widen the M1's northbound carriageway between Daisy Hill and the Logan Motorway, will be the third phase of the road's upgrade.

The missing link was hailed as the motorway's slowest stretch of road in 2019.

The works include widening the motorway, extending the South East Busway to Springwood, a new bus station and park 'n' ride at Rochdale and continuing the M1 cycleway. ...

Quote... Transport advocate group Rail Back on Track's Robert Dow said the proposal had good and bad points.

"We are concerned about how the existing infrastructure will hold up during the Olympics if there is no upgrades to the public transport networks before then," he said.

"Building more roads is not the solution – it will only lead to more road congestion – we need better public transport." ...

Pacific Motorway M1 Daisy Hill to Logan Motorway

> https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/pacific-motorway-m1-daisy-hill-to-logan-motorway

The utter stupidity continues!!  More roads for Olympics? Truly NFI!!  Gloves off for this Transport Minister/Government

Quote from: Jonno on November 07, 2022, 06:47:31 AMThe utter stupidity continues!!  More roads for Olympics? Truly NFI!!  Gloves off for this Transport Minister/Government

At least the busway extension looks good. Mark posted some renders on his Facebook page. I'm struggling to find any more info/diagrams on the TMR website though. Anyone have anything?

https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/96496

Have your say on more M1 upgrades
7th November 2022

Minister for Transport and Main Roads
The Honourable Mark Bailey

> Media Assets  (Photographs and a fly through video).

Motorists and residents between Daisy Hill and Logan are being asked for feedback on the third and final stage of the multi-billion M1 (Pacific Motorway) North upgrade program.

Stage one, upgrading the M1/M3 Gateway Merge, was completed in May 2020.

Stage two, the $750 million, Eight Mile Plains to Daisy Hill upgrade, is in construction. It includes widening the motorway, extending the South East Busway to Springwood, a new bus station and park 'n' ride at Rochdale and continuing the M1 cycleway.

Work on the business case for stage three between Daisy Hill and Logan Motorway is underway and feedback is being sought on the design concept.

The proposed upgrade includes:

Widening 10 kilometres between Daisy Hill and Logan Motorway
Extending the South East Busway from Springwood bus station to Mandew Street
Three new bus stations at Chatswood Road, Loganlea Road and Beenleigh-Redland Bay Road
Two new park 'n' ride facilities at Chatswood Road and Beenleigh-Redland Bay Road
Major upgrades to Paradise Road, Mandew Street, Grandis Street and Beenleigh-Redland Bay Road interchanges.
Proposals also include a nine-kilometre cycleway extension, providing a healthy and active way to travel between Brisbane and Logan.

$1 billion has been committed by the Australian and Queensland Governments (50:50) for the planning, business case delivery and future stages of the project.

Consultation will run from 7 November to 27 November 2022.

In addition to providing online feedback, the community is invited to attend drop-in sessions to ask questions and find out more information.

To get more information on the consultation drop-in sessions, view the concept designs, and provide feedback, visit www.tmr.qld.gov.au/daisyhilltologanmwy, call 1800 314 763 or email DH2LM@tmr.qld.gov.au.

Quotes attributable to Federal Treasurer and Member for Rankin Jim Chalmers:

"Building a better M1 is absolutely crucial when it comes to easing congestion and catering to growth in our local community.

"This is one of the most significant projects in our area and we're working closely with the state government to get it finished as soon as possible.

"It's also great for our economy – employing 550 workers during construction which delivers flow-on benefits for local businesses.

"Construction is progressing well on the $750 million upgrade between Eight Mile Plains to Daisy Hill and stage three to Logan Motorway is the missing link.

"Before we get started on the next stage, it's important that we get a better sense of what locals think about the project and what they hope it will deliver.

"I encourage anyone in our community with a view to get involved and provide feedback. This will help the Department of Transport and Main Roads to incorporate local views in the final phase of planning."

Quotes attributable to Queensland Transport and Main Roads Minister Mark Bailey:

"The Palaszczuk Government is delivering better roads and reduced congestion right along the M1, and nowhere is that more evident than through the growing Logan region.

"We know more than 27,000 trips are expected to be made between Daisy Hill and Logan each day by 2041 – without upgrades this will leave the M1 at a standstill.

"Integral to this project is the active transport improvements that are built into the design, which will see the veloway extended to 30 kilometres.

"Connecting Brisbane to the Logan Motorway via the Veloway is an important link in our vision of having a dedicated active transport corridor from Brisbane to the New South Wales border.

"This package rounds out our nearly $2 billion program of works on the M1 to the North, so I encourage local drivers and commuters alike to check out the plans and have their say."

Quotes attributable to Queensland Energy Minister and Member for Springwood Mick de Brenni:

"Our community backed me to deliver a better M1 and Busway to Loganholme, and we're delivering.

"The plans we're putting out for consultation consider and balance the needs of motorists, public and active transport as well as amenity for locals.

"We expect this upgrade to cut the average morning peak travel time to Eight Mile Plains from the Hyperdome by almost half - that's good news in my book.

"This project also represents one of the most significant urban renewal opportunities for our community since its settlement in the 70's, with better roads and public transport, we can expect to see more new and affordable housing options feature around the new busway and cycleway connections.

"I'm committed to this project because it means properly connecting our community to places like the CBD, Southbank, the Gabba, the Universities and everything in between without wasted time sitting in traffic.

"I know that people live in our neighbourhood for the lifestyle, but with this project you'll have more options to get where you're going and home sooner, and that means more time enjoying your family and Queensland's great lifestyle.

Quotes attributable to Queensland Attorney General and Member for Waterford:

"I welcome the call for community involvement in this planning, because that will help deliver the best outcomes possible for locals.

"This package of works alone will support up to 550 secure Queensland jobs – that's good for our economy, and good for the community.

"I encourage anyone who lives, or drives, in the area to have a look at the plans online or visit a drop-in session and provide feedback."

Quotes attributable to State Member for Macalister Melissa McMahon:

"This business case process is such an important step in delivering better, safer roads for Logan locals.

"The works already completed further north have made a big difference for morning commuters, and this is the next step in alleviating that bottleneck around the Hyperdome.

"Get involved and have a say to shape the future of our M1."

Quotes attributable to Member for Moreton Graham Perrett:

"This M1 upgrade will mean people in my community will be able to get home quicker, but most importantly safer."

"I would encourage anyone who wants to have a say on this important infrastructure project do so, as it will help deliver the best outcomes for everyone."

ENDS

If you want to reduce congestion and spend virtually no money, and possibly make money to spend on PT etc... put a toll on it during peak hour when it is congested.

The psychological effect is so strong, it only needs to be a token amount - say 50c or $1 per day.

They go for the engineering solutions not the economical one because selling good economics is bad politics.

QuoteWidening 10 kilometres between Daisy Hill and Logan Motorway

There really isn't a need for a freeway to be more than 4 lanes each way IMO. I read that they will extend to 5 lanes? What is that 5 lane - a general traffic lane or the lane for emergency/shoulder? Would be good to get clarity on this.

An additional lane will only add about 2000 pphd to the road network, making equal to about 2 train's worth of capacity. We aren't able to disaggregate the road-only component from the busway, but I'd say a good $500 million is going to the road.

So that is about ~ $250,000 per additional car user during peak hour (during off-peak, the road is not congested so the additional lane does not mean much - its an increase in PEAK capacity). Road projects almost never ever mention the additional peak hour capacity because it is sooo small. You would notice it! Even if you divide that amount by 30 years life of the concrete and ashphalt, that is still ~ $8300 per additional user, per year.

An alternative use for that $750 million would be to start on faster rail between Park Road and Kuraby, remove the Altandi curve, and increase average train speed on the GC/BNL line. I think it always helps to point to concrete alternatives (punchline intended).

The busway extension is good, but I also think there are limits to how long BRT lines should be. The seating is not as comfortable for long distances and bus speeds are limited to about 90 km/hr. Rail is the better long distance mode, provided it can make matching average speeds (in many cases it cannot).

^I think the 5 lane sections are where onramps and offramps are close together

So my thoughts on the design.

-Springwood feels like a bit of a mess. I can see they want to save money by leaving the station the way it is, but I feel that forcing every bus to loop around is a permanent bottleneck and not a good passenger experience with zebra crossing to access the platforms. It should be reconfigured as a through station, eg by building an elevated station over the top and using the current platforms for local terminators.

-Not enough access points to the Veloway. Particularly noticeable at Springwood, which is supposed to be a local centre but the Veloway just shoots straight past.
Same goes for the majority of the employment precinct at Watand st.

-Following on from that, not enough footbridges across the M1 overall

-Chatswood Road station is about 2.2km from Springwood so probably fine in terms of location and connections with local roads on the eastern side, and makes sense from a network perspective too, eg could have a bus from Browns Plains via Wembley Road & Paradise Rd

-Loganlea Road station is about 1.5km on from Chatswood Road. Again the location is fine in the context of local roads and potential bus routes. Guess if this one goes in they can kill the 581 and 582.

-The next station is not till Loganholme, and it's not dedicated busway right to the current interchange. I feel like there should at least be a minor station before this at Shalier Pioneer Park, this could be a Federation St style stop with just bus shelters.

-Redland Bay Road terminus is a nice surprise and will extend the reach of the frequent network right to Cornubia.

I like the Loganlea Road and Chatswood road station designs, although I'd prefer they were named after a suburb following Translink convention rather than the street (Daisy Hill and Shailer Park station I guess?)

I don't like that the flythrough doesn't show the full approach to the Hyperdome station, I'm assuming that the buses just join regular traffic to get to the existing interchange. I get why they've done that, but I would have preferred a more busway-style station near the motorway, with the interchange moved. You could then extend the full busway to the new Cornubia station (which again I really like)

I wonder if that means an extension of the 555 to the new Cornubia station, and also maybe the Brisbane Metro (very super foamy unlikely idea)

I also mirror Gazzas points that Springwood is messy, but having spoken to the project team during consultation, i understand that a rebuild with an inline station was deemed not worth the high cost for what it would actually achieve. Hard disagree personally. There's clearly a massive number of property resumptions required to widen the freeway this much. If you saved a few dollars by not building motorway hell, you could afford a nice inline station at Sprwingwood

Quote from: timh on November 07, 2022, 14:29:49 PMI like the Loganlea Road and Chatswood road station designs, although I'd prefer they were named after a suburb following Translink convention rather than the street (Daisy Hill and Shailer Park station I guess?)

Both stations fall in the suburb of Daisy Hill, which is likely by they are named the way they are (Shailer Park doesn't start until you hit the Shailer Pioneer Park). Alternatively, they could potentially get away with calling the Chatswood Road Station "Chatswood Hills" after the locality, and then make Loganlea Road "Daisy Hill".

Quote from: timh on November 07, 2022, 14:29:49 PMI don't like that the flythrough doesn't show the full approach to the Hyperdome station, I'm assuming that the buses just join regular traffic to get to the existing interchange. I get why they've done that, but I would have preferred a more busway-style station near the motorway, with the interchange moved. You could then extend the full busway to the new Cornubia station (which again I really like)

The detailed aerials now available on the DTMR Website do confirm that that busway terminates at Mandew Street, with the last km being shared running - which makes sense given there's no way you could really run even just bus lanes to get there without blocking access to either local side streets or Hyperdome Carpark entrances. It would also cause issues with the two dual-lane roundabouts.

Quote from: timh on November 07, 2022, 14:29:49 PMI wonder if that means an extension of the 555 to the new Cornubia station, and also maybe the Brisbane Metro (very super foamy unlikely idea)

I don't know if I would want the 555 extended to the Redland Bay Road Station, or if there would be demand. I would advocate servicing by more frequent new/changed local services, along with the 566, 571 and possibly 569 peak services. You couldn't accurately call it Cornubia, as it's within Loganholme - Cornubia starts about 1km away (as the crow flies) from there.

Quote from: timh on November 07, 2022, 14:29:49 PMI also mirror Gazzas points that Springwood is messy...

It has got to be one of the messiest intersections I have ever seen. To be honest, I don't care so much about using the current station layout, but surely there is a better way to deal with the interface between the station and busway extension.

Is the Chatswood Rd station accessible from the IKEA side?  That seems like a pretty obvious issue.  Not the only part of the busway with that issue (eg lack of accessibility from 8MP to the Technology Park on the other side of the M3).

Might come down to cost / benefit (for instance the lack of access to Parkwood East from the industrial estates on the south side of Smith Street - I suspect the balance of cost favoured not putting in access there, annoying though it is).

Sent to all outlets:

One more lane, one more lane ...

8th November 2022

RAIL Back On Track is unsure exactly what it will take for the Palaszczuk Government and the LNP opposition to wake up to the widely accepted fact that building more roads just creates even more congestion.  It is not population nor economic growth that is driving congestion. It's the congestion busting projects themselves. Just like smoking cigarettes were advertised as "good for your health" in the 1930's to the 1950's claiming the widening a freeway or a major road will "bust" congestion is not just wrong it is simply a "lie".

Yet today, the Transport and Mains Roads Minster, Mark Bailey MP, announced further widening of the M1 to "bust" congestion. 

Engineering Australia in its paper Urban Transport Systems - A Transport Australia Society Discussion Paper - December 2021 (1) was unequivocal in its position that "Increasing capacity for urban road networks induces demand and is a major reason for increased traffic on the network".  Further they highlighted that "There is little evidence to demonstrate increasing road capacity to reduce traffic congestion improves economic performance in cities"

The Planning Institute of Australia in their Infrastructure and Its Funding: Implications for Planning Discussion Paper - June 2017 (2) noted the need to "Consider non-build solutions first – while major projects are important, consider steps to manage the demand (and avoid induced demand) and using existing assets more efficiently"

Even the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) in their report Transport Strategies for Net-Zero Systems by Design (3) identifies "three dynamics at the source of car dependency and high emissions: induced demand, urban sprawl and the erosion of active and shared transport modes".  This described the M1 and this latest widening perfectly.

So what is Induced demand?  Induced demand, is economist-speak for when increasing the supply of something (like roads) makes people want that thing even more. Though some traffic engineers made note of this phenomenon at least as early as the 1960s, social scientists have collected enough data over the last 30 years to show this happens every time we build or widen a road.

RAIL Back On Track says the current Pacific Motorway M1 North [widening] program is simply inducing demand and entrenching car-dependency even further. 

RAIL Back On Track calls for the remaining program to focus solely on:

. extending the Busway to Beenleigh-Redland Road without widening the M1
. rebuilding the Springwood Bus station as an inline station
. develop/redevelop the associated park n ride as transit-oriented, walkable development with social/affordable housing; and
. redesign the southern Brisbane/Logan Bus Network to feed into the extended busway and create a cross-town BRT network.

Widening the M1 further is just throwing money down the drain!!

Robert Dow
Administration
RAIL Back On Track
admin@backontrack.org

References:

1. https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/sites/default/files/2022-01/Urban-Transport-Systems-TAS-Discussion-Paper-December-2021-revised.pdf

2. https://www.planning.org.au/documents/item/8521

3. https://www.oecd.org/env/transport-strategies-for-net-zero-systems-by-design-0a20f779-en.htm

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Quote from: SurfRail on November 07, 2022, 18:04:14 PMIs the Chatswood Rd station accessible from the IKEA side?  That seems like a pretty obvious issue.  Not the only part of the busway with that issue (eg lack of accessibility from 8MP to the Technology Park on the other side of the M3).

Might come down to cost / benefit (for instance the lack of access to Parkwood East from the industrial estates on the south side of Smith Street - I suspect the balance of cost favoured not putting in access there, annoying though it is).

It is accessible via the nearby Paradise Road underpass. The removal of the roundabout will make that intersection possible to cross without dying! As such, I don't think a pedestrian overpass is really needed here, but what I think would improve this is a shared path running parallel to the busway and offramp, leading directly through to Paradise Road, rather than needing to hike up Old Chatswood Road and doubling back through the park.

Making people walk the long way around is not the least bit "accessible".
It would be a 1.6km walk!

^^ ~800m if a path similar to what I describe above is put in place, otherwise probably 1.3km or so. The big thing is that any path there is really only serving IKEA, the Super Centre and the mix of car yards and light industrial up the road - I consider it too far from the residential areas of Slacks Creek to properly service them, regardless of having the bridge or not.

As for IKEA and Co, I would question how many people would go to IKEA via public transport anyway. I've lugged home some medium-sized stuff from IKEA on a bus and wouldn't recommend it, let alone anything larger from the Super Centre.

^I think the benefit is for workers, people buying smaller things, and of course future development around the station (Eg if the car yards are redeveloped)

What I find interesting is that the Loganlea Rd P&R has only 225 spaces and is getting a lift and bridge.
There are already footpaths that can get you over to the other side (its a reasonably direct route but has a lot of crossings) , but they are investing in a bridge for those 225 users to make it quicker.

Meanwhile the arrangements at Chatswood road are far worse, and i think passenger numbers will be higher, but apparently they cant do a bridge there and you have to walk a long way.

Agree though that a pathway next to the busway would be 'less bad' at least.

The project simply generates an unworkable situation which can only operate with a car or motor vehicle and forces developed further away from the monstrosity.

What about putting an electric scooter station into the plans? (No scooter emoji here, sorry!)

People can get Lime or Neuron to and from the station. This increases the pedestrian catchment area from 800 m walk to 2km by scoot.

And as it is private, minimal cost to do that as well.

QuoteAnd as it is private, minimal cost to do that as well.

Minimal cost for whom?

^^ Actually, Logan currently has a eScooter trial underway currently, so it is definitely something we could see:

"...operating area will include the suburbs of Underwood, Woodridge, Slacks Creek, Springwood and Logan Central to start, with expansions to further suburbs such as Kuraby and Meadowbrook to come in early 2022." (Meadowbrook & south Kingston has just come online).

 

A comment by a FB user to the above FB post.

I think the moderation does extend beyond the bounds of strict safety, non-abuse, and positivity...

Quote from: #Metro on November 15, 2022, 12:03:34 PMA comment by a FB user to the above FB post.

I think the moderation does extend beyond the bounds of strict safety, non-abuse, and positivity...

He needs to add "or if you mention Induced Demand when I am claiming a project will reduce congestion"

Had to drive to Sydney over the weekend due to my son's cancelled TayTay flights.

M1/A1 in NSW is impressive with 4 lane the whole way. 

Having said that once the Robina to Tugan project is finished, expanding the M1 just needs to stop!! Just leave it as is.  It's 3-4 lanes all the way.  Just stop!!

^^ I disagree, I think it is important that the Daisy Hill to Logan Motorway section proceeds to eliminate the final bottleneck caused by the final reduction of 4 lanes to 3 at Loganholme. The bottleneck has become so severe, that morning buses from the Loganholme Busway Station are forced to rat run almost every single day to get to Springwood, using a number of different routes (every morning we play "what way will the bus take today"). It is only ever on a Friday that the buses may be able to follow their standard route on the M1, but even that isn't always the case.

The Daisy Hill to Logan Motorway project also includes the extension of the busway beyond Springwood up to Loganholme, with the two new busway stations at Chatswood Road and Winnetts Road (extension of the existing Slacks Creek Park n Ride), as well as the Beenleigh-Redland Bay Road Park N Ride and the extension of the V1 Veloway to Loganholme. The extent of the changes required to run the Busway means that it's not possible to deliver it without the highway works.

The extension of the busway beyond Springwood up to Loganholme, with the two new busway stations at Chatswood Road and Winnetts Road (extension of the existing Slacks Creek Park n Ride), as well as the Beenleigh-Redland Bay Road Park N Ride and the extension of the V1 Veloway to Loganholme can be delivered without the road being widened. Had 50 years of that approach and look where that has got us

Show us how with some detail.

Quote from: Jonno on March 06, 2024, 12:45:40 PMThe extension of the busway beyond Springwood up to Loganholme, with the two new busway stations at Chatswood Road and Winnetts Road (extension of the existing Slacks Creek Park n Ride), as well as the Beenleigh-Redland Bay Road Park N Ride and the extension of the V1 Veloway to Loganholme can be delivered without the road being widened. Had 50 years of that approach and look where that has got us

I have lived in Shailer Park all my life and I can assure you that no, it cannot. The busway runs along the current service road alignment in parts, and part of the highway itself in others. It requires such substantial modifications to be made to the highway, on and offramps and service roads, involving large scale property resumptions, that it simply wouldn't (and in parts physically couldn't) be done without a full upgrade of the highway being performed in tandem.

Just to highlight a few areas, lets start at the Chatswood Road Busway Station, where the busway will see the removal of both the Chatswood Road offramp (Exit 23) and onramp. The offramp one prior to this would also be wiped out by the busway itself (which takes up part of the existing offramp and would also take up part of the current service road), which leaves no ramps between here and the new one further north at Rochedale Road.



A new offramp is proposed, but will require substantial resumptions, with and a major intersection to be added to Paradise Road, and a major new extension through to Winnetts Road is also required (the reason for which will be seen in my next point).



Moving south to the Loganlea Road/Winnetts Road Busway Station, that likewise will result in the entire removal of the Winnetts Road offramp (like at Springwood, the offramp lane becomes the busway alignment). The offramp at Chatswood Road becomes the replacement to this offramp, which is why the extension of Winnetts Road to Paradise Road is needed. Meanwhile, the Winnetts Road onramp requires a massive reworking that continues all the way down to Mandew Street. The areas around Mungaree Drive, which is being completely realigned due to the busway using a large portion of its existing alignment, require massive amounts of property resumptions. It will completely change the layout of this area.







These requirements would make the busway build itself prohibitively expensive and enormously disruptive if not done as part of a wider highway redevelopment.

I prefer to take a mode neutral view. Motorways and Busways are both Priority A exclusive corridors. The main difference is the vehicles running along them. A busway is a type of road, and other vehicles often use it (e.g. emergency services).

In this case both a motorway and a busway are sharing the same Priority A corridor. If this were Perth, it would be a train running down the ROW.

  

If only their costs (construction and maintenance) plus externalities were equally.

This is like saying I am neutral to smoking and yoga for health benefits!!

It's not really, Jonno. I'm not automatically opposed to road projects, because if I were, I would not be in a position to engage in fair assessment.

As others have pointed out in this case, it's hard to uncouple one from the other.