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BCC NWTN study - Rail plans revealed

13th August 2022

In further developments with the BCC NWTN (North West Transport Network) study Brisbanetimes has published additional rail information that was not part of the initial information that was supplied to them.

New information has emerged that shows BCC did look at a rail solution, even though they have prioritised a 6 lane motorway over the preferences of the local constituents and have pushed rail out to a 2041 late horizon.

*** Brisbanetimes: Council scoped out new Brisbane underground with suburban stations
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/queensland/council-scoped-out-new-brisbane-underground-with-suburban-stations-20220812-p5b9dr.html ***

The first rail solution included in the business case was a 14km underground railway between Albion and Strathpine, with underground stations at Everton Park and Bridgeman Downs.

The second rail solution included in the business case was a 9.5km underground railway running from Albion towards Chermside then Carseldine. This proposal would have an underground station at Chermside. From Carseldine track upgrades and extra bridge on the South Pine River would be required.

The Minister for Transport Mark Bailey has rejected the motorway proposal but seems more supportive of improved rail north of Brisbane.
'Bailey said the state government was focussed on delivering the Cross River Rail project and would also look at "further enhancement of rail services between the Sunshine Coast and Brisbane" as part of planning for the 2032 Brisbane Olympics.'

It is RAIL Back On Track's view that the motorway proposal is dead in the water. BCC should focus on bus improvements in line with the community desires.  The State is responsible for rail and rail improvements, and appears to be committed to doing just that.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Diagrams are from the BCC NWTN Business Case published by Brisbanetimes.

1. First option - 14km underground railway between Albion and Strathpine




2. Second option - 9.5km underground railway running from Albion to Chermside then Carseldine

Facebook ...

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1558162056225771520

I am no fan of wider spaced station with 750 space park n rides!! This creates/moves congestion not reduce it! It's 2022 not 1970!

Again stations need to be located near existing commercial/employment centres, surrounding areas densified and if express lines needed build them too!!

Our employment/working ways have changed and connecting suburban centres as important as CBD.

4BC radio interview this morning with Robert Dow and 4BC's Bill McDonald on the latest rail news on the North West Transport Network plan by Brisbane City Council.

Great interview by Robert Dow. Interview starts 41:10 in.

https://www.4bc.com.au/podcast/full-show-weekend-breakfast-with-bill-mcdonald-saturday-august-13/

Robert will hopefully post the mp3 file of the specific interview below.

QuoteI am no fan of wider spaced station with 750 space park n rides!! This creates/moves congestion not reduce it! It's 2022 not 1970!

But this is how Perth does it on the Mandurah and Joondalup lines. And it works very well.

The stop spacing has to be very wide as Sunshine Coast/Maroochydore is 100 km away and the average speed needs to be kept very high to outrun cars and make up for access time and waiting time which motorists don't face.

Local transport can be served by BRT on Gympie and South Pine / Old Northern Road to fill in the space between rail stations.

Having been there recently it is a good example of how to bring public transport to urban sprawl!  Car parks cause traffic problems!  It works but it's not a great urban design outcome and there are better ways to do it!

Quote from: Fares_Fair on August 13, 2022, 08:43:54 AM4BC radio interview this morning with Robert Dow and 4BC's Bill McDonald on the latest rail news on the North West Transport Network plan by Brisbane City Council.

Great interview by Robert Dow. Interview starts 41:10 in.

https://www.4bc.com.au/podcast/full-show-weekend-breakfast-with-bill-mcdonald-saturday-august-13/

Robert will hopefully post the mp3 file of the specific interview below.

^

Interview 13 August 2022 4BC Weekend Breakfast Host Bill McDonald and Robert Dow RBoT
Discussion about the BCC NWTN study with emphasis on the rail plans

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/4bc/4bc_rd_13aug22.mp3 MP3 2.9 MB

Photograph of a sign in the NWTC that I mention in the interview. 2010. Department of Main Roads was merged with Queensland Transport in 2009 to form the Department of Transport and Roads, so this sign pre-dates that.



R Dow April 2010

Perth makes rail work where otherwise the walk up catchment would be too sparse to support a train station.

"Application of a commuter railway to low density"

https://www.bitre.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-12/2009_infrastructure_colloquium_peter_martinovich.pdf

This document goes into considerable detail about how TransPerth and the WA PTA evaluated land use and transport integration.

Their conclusion was that a minimum 10,000 residents are required in the walk-up zone for a TOD to yield the 700 daily walk-ins to support a rail station.

If we assume 10,000 residents /2 = 5000 dwellings. And a walk up zone of 800 m gives a area of a circle of 2 km squared then the density is 5000/2km sq which is 2,500 dwellings per km sq. Or a density of 5000 residents/km sq.

The average density of a typical Brisbane suburb is much less than that. Thus Perth uses feeder buses to extend the catchment to a 10 minute bus ride and uses park and ride to fill in any gaps in the bus network.

The $2 daily car park fee is designed to penalise anyone who has access to a feeder bus but chooses to take a car to the station. This is why charging for car parking is important - it means fewer car parks to construct and incentivises bus use.

So the WA PTA are very clever, and it all works together.

The only place on the Northside that might come close to that minimum density is Chermside IMHO.

Quote from: Fares_Fair on August 13, 2022, 08:43:54 AM4BC radio interview this morning with Robert Dow and 4BC's Bill McDonald on the latest rail news on the North West Transport Network plan by Brisbane City Council.

Great interview by Robert Dow. Interview starts 41:10 in.

https://www.4bc.com.au/podcast/full-show-weekend-breakfast-with-bill-mcdonald-saturday-august-13/

Robert will hopefully post the mp3 file of the specific interview below.

Interviewer only concerned about the cost and shut ainterview down!! No doubt will talk about the free car he is given as part of his sponsorship!!

So hard to get that key message of "building more road capacity just creates more congestion and even more tax-payer subsidies"

It is still perceived as a choice between modes and not between 1 that makes the problem worse and 1 that actually reduces congestion!!!

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1558247447108800514

Quote from: #Metro on August 13, 2022, 09:59:00 AMPerth makes rail work where otherwise the walk up catchment would be too sparse to support a train station.

"Application of a commuter railway to low density"

https://www.bitre.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-12/2009_infrastructure_colloquium_peter_martinovich.pdf

This document goes into considerable detail about how TransPerth and the WA PTA evaluated land use and transport integration.

Their conclusion was that a minimum 10,000 residents are required in the walk-up zone for a TOD to yield the 700 daily walk-ins to support a rail station.

If we assume 10,000 residents /2 = 5000 dwellings. And a walk up zone of 800 m gives a area of a circle of 2 km squared then the density is 5000/2km sq which is 2,500 dwellings per km sq. Or a density of 5000 residents/km sq.

The average density of a typical Brisbane suburb is much less than that. Thus Perth uses feeder buses to extend the catchment to a 10 minute bus ride and uses park and ride to fill in any gaps in the bus network.

The $2 daily car park fee is designed to penalise anyone who has access to a feeder bus but chooses to take a car to the station. This is why charging for car parking is important - it means fewer car parks to construct and incentivises bus use.

So the WA PTA are very clever, and it all works together.

The only place on the Northside that might come close to that minimum density is Chermside IMHO.

Density is a political decision not a consumer choice!!

https://grattan.edu.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/090_cities_report_housing_market.pdf

https://www.dplh.wa.gov.au/getmedia/445a07de-bc30-446d-a4e8-17e39431b2a2/FUT_the-housing-we-d-choose-report

It may well be Jonno, but if Perth made railway construction conditional on doubling or tripling densities before moving to construct rail, the rail network and patronage would look like Adelaide's.

By using the Perth model we can get the benefits of Rail and high patronage right now.

Development can then follow on later as people move to near the station to take advantage of the fact that it really is faster than cars on a motorway.

Just having density near a station is not sufficient. The service has to be the same or better vs driving.

Otherwise, you have a situation like the Cleveland line where residents are offered LSR and VLSR service at 35.5 km/hr average speed which is actually slower than driving on a suburban road in mixed traffic!

Why bother?

BCC's low density zoning and anti-density / anti-townhouse policies will also be a battle to reverse.

Just build the railway to the Perth model so Sunshine Coast commuters can get the train ASAP. If the Perth model is anything to go by, Sunshine Coast line would generate 20-30 million trips per year with Regional Rapid Rail.

But by following the Perth Model as opposed to say the Copenhagen model you lock in car dependency rather than create a catalyst for the change!

QuoteBut by following the Perth Model as opposed to say the Copenhagen model you lock in car dependency rather than create a catalyst for the change!

But in what way does providing express train service at 160 km/hr to the Sunshine Coast on Regional Rapid Rail trains with minimal stops in the BCC area and infill BRT to cover the local stop sections lock in car dependancy?

Wouldn't making the line LSR (Low Speed Rail) do that instead?

And what benefit is there to be had over the Perth model (or the Victorian V/Line regional fast rail model) by applying a model to a context where it is not suitable given the current facts?

Public transport does not reduce congestion and that is not its purpose. PT provides an alternative to congestion, which will always be present in a large city. PT is also not exempt from the induced traffic phenomenon as well.

What People Get Wrong About Induced Demand

QuoteInduced demand (probably more accurately called induced traffic) is the phenomenon where building or expanding roads and highways doesn't help congestion because it results in more people driving. This is often used as an argument against building the new car infrastructure, but people don't talk often about how induced demand applies to other modes. In this video we explain why induced demand does apply to transit, walking, and cycling infrastructure, but with different consequences.

Quote from: Jonno on August 13, 2022, 11:19:16 AMBut by following the Perth Model as opposed to say the Copenhagen model you lock in car dependency rather than create a catalyst for the change!

If the State government went with a plan similar to the Gympie Road tunnel, I don't think the stop spacing would be an issue. Since Chermside is already a major interchange, busses would do the work of feeding the station at Chermside - essentially making the catchment of the station much larger - whilst still allowing for a quicker trip up to the Sunshine Coast. Since busses already frequently run along Gympie Road there wouldn't be much benefit having more stations

The only spot along that route that *might* warrant a stop is Kedron, since there is a lack of local busses running through the suburb meaning the only option for most is walking to Gympie Road, however even then I don't think it is big enough of an issue seeing as most of Kedron is close to Gympie Road. A station there would also have the benefit of providing a station closer to Kedron SHS and also a station near Kedron SS and Wavell SHS. It would also be able to link up well to the bikeway. Regardless I don't think having an additional station servicing Kedron would be warranted if the aim of the tunnel is to increase speeds up to the Sunny coast.

Agreed RowBro,

Residents of BCC Brisbane suburbs have more options vs MBRC and Sunshine Coast commuters.

BCC locals have bikeways, busways, local buses etc. Uber. Scooters.

MBRC and Sunshine Coast Residents (pop. 500,000+) can't use bikes, busways, BUZ services, Uber etc direct from where they live to Brisbane. It's either rail or the Bruce Hwy.

Its fair to say that SC and MBRC commuters probably don't want to stop at every other Northside suburb. If they need to, they can transfer to BUZ or BRT services at Chermside.

(The quality and utility of the research that has come out of the WA PTA and TransPerth is really commendable).



"90% of the catchment is outside of the walk-up zone". And you can see in the station access numbers, walking up contributes a minor share (~10%) of passengers. The rest is bus interchange and P&R. Nothing here prevents future development or TOD occurring around stations, we just don't have to wait around for it.




Source: https://www.bitre.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-12/2009_infrastructure_colloquium_peter_martinovich.pdf

I am confused!

The road tunnel and/or rail is need because of the population growth and congestion in the area but the rail needs to have limited stations for North Coast Rail?

Suspect we need both capacity for north coast (is it not created by removing say Redcliff trains from current Northern corridor) and stations in area for the current population causing the congestion?

If now NC rail capacity can be created then build for both!

QuoteThe road tunnel and/or rail is need because of the population growth and congestion in the area but the rail needs to have limited stations for North Coast Rail!

Jonno, have you considered the possibility of infill BRT up Gympie Road and also up South Pine or Old Northern Roads for Brisbane Northside residents? What are your thoughts on that?

Quote from: Jonno on August 13, 2022, 13:43:36 PMI am confused!

The road tunnel and/or rail is need because of the population growth and congestion in the area but the rail needs to have limited stations for North Coast Rail! 

Suspect we need both capacity for north coast (is it not created by removing say Redcliff trains from current Northern corridor) and stations in area for the current population causing the congestion?

I think the current alignment is just not well suited for faster rail as is, even if there were no other trains restricting speeds. For instance the curves around Eagle Junction seriously slow down trains, and even then the track goes much further east than would be ideal. A new tunnel would allow for a more direct alignment with faster speeds in mind. It wouldn't be the biggest timesaving ever, but every minute counts when the distance is so vast.

I think the congestion in the local area can be solved via the completion of the busway to Chermside and by adding transit lanes on some of the parallel roads further west. I don't think adding 2 heavy rail stations will make a big difference since a lot of the traffic along Gympie Road is coming from further north regardless and the ideal station spacing for heavy rail doesn't really suit the requirements of the area (that being single family homes).

If BCC was really serious about improving public transport for the local region they should really consider running light rail down the corridor since that will allow for closer station spacing and more frequent service whilst not slowing commuters from further north down. The reality is, to solve the congestion along Gympie Road, we need better transit further north (where most of the trips are originating). Making the station spacing smaller will only make the train less desirable for these very people.

It is possible to service local transport needs and express running.  But requires a few more tracks.

This blog by BrizC 4 years ago gives an idea.

I wouldn't get overly concerned about detail.  The fact that BCC even worked up some rail solutions for inclusion in their business case is an achievement of sorts. 

Quote from: ozbob on April 24, 2018, 01:55:31 AMBrizCommuter: North West Transport Corridor - The Missing Link

 >> https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2018/04/north-west-transport-corridor-missing.html

========================


https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2018/04/north-west-transport-corridor-missing.html
North West Transport Corridor - The Missing Link


Source: DoTMR

This isn't the first time that BrizCommuter has written about the need for the Trouts Road / North West Transport(ation) Corridor for rail, but this blog post goes into more detail. This reserved corridor stretches through Brisbane's Northern suburbs between Everton Park and Carseldine. Apart from a mention in Connecting SEQ 2031 under the state ALP Bligh government, there has been very little mention of this transport corridor in politics until recently. Recent mention has been related to the federal LPN Turnbull government's suggestion of a fast rail link between Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast called "North Coast Connect". So what are the advantages of building a rail line along Trouts Road / North West Transport Corridor?

    100% increases in rail capacity from Caboolture and the Sunshine Coast into Brisbane (up to 24tph). This would also allow a 100% increase in rail capacity from the Redcliffe Peninsula Line and/or the Shorncliffe Line (up to 24tph). This cannot be realised by Cross Rail Rail alone due to the 4 track bottleneck on the existing North Coast Line between Albion and Northgate (which only allows for an additional 3tph to Caboolture and the Sunshine Coast).
    Faster journey times between Caboolture and the Sunshine Coast to Roma Street due to an approx. 5km shorter, straighter, and faster alignment.
    High frequency public transport to many Brisbane Northern suburbs (Everton Park, Stafford Heights, McDowell, Chermside West) currently devoid of high frequency public transport.
    Allows for direct rail services between the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast.
    Would improve the business cases for Sunshine Coast Line duplication and rail to Caloundra and Maroochydore (CAMCOS).
    All of the above would reduce pressure on roads across Brisbane's Northside and the Bruce Highway. 24tph with 50% full trains = 10,000 cars off the road = 5 car lanes/hour/direction.

There have been some suggestions of building a freeway along this corridor. This is poor value for money concept as there would nowhere for the cars to go once they get the Samford Road or Wardell Street, over than already congested roads that would be difficult to upgrade. BrizCommuter would also debate if there is enough room for both a train line and freeway along the corridor (especially if more than 2 tracks are required) without requiring further property resumptions or building a double deck rail/road structure. There would however be space for local access roads, in particular to station car parks and drop off zones. An adjacent cycleway could also be easily provisioned.

Suggested track map for the Trouts Rd Line



So where would the line go (heading South to North)?

    Ideally, the line would break off from the Cross River Rail (CRR) tunnel just North of Roma Street, in the vicinity of Countess Street. It is vital that tunnel connections are created during the construction of CRR, as adding them later would force the temporary closure of CRR for months (as there are no track crossovers to allow CRR services to turnback at Roma Street). Frequency of CRR and Trouts Road services would be well matched, allowing for all or most services to through run, though this would make the rebuilt Exhibition station a bit of a white elephant.
    The first station heading North would be at QUT Kelvin Grove, adjacent to Kelvin Grove Road. This serves a large trip generator.
    The next station would be at Alderley, allowing for interchange with the Ferny Grove Line. The most ideal location would be just North north of Alderley station which would require some industrial and residential resumption.
    The line would then climb out of the tunnel, with a station at Stafford Rd in Everton Park. Due to the line having to cross Kedron Brook, the exact alignment here would need some detailed analysis. 
    The line would then climb up and continue along the Trouts Road corridor, with stations at Flockton Street, Hamilton Road, Albany Creek Road, and Beams Road. The alignment is fairly hilly, so a reasonable amount of earthworks would be required.
    North of Beams Road, the line would need to be routed to connect with the existing North Coast (Caboolture) Line. Increasing development makes things tricky here, but an elevated route over Gympie Road would probably most cost effective.
    The line would connect with the existing North Coast Line to the South East of Strathpine station via a grade separated junction, allowing for via Trouts Road services to run to/from Caboolture and Sunshine Coast, and Redcliffe Peninsula Line services to run via Northgate. A 4th track would need to be added between Strathpine and Lawnton.
    Preferably, the Trouts Road Line would have 4 tracks between the tunnel portal at Everton Park and Beams Road, allowing for express services to overtake all stations services in both directions. Ideally, Sunshine Coast services would run express, and Caboolture services would serve all stations. Alternatively Sunshine Coast and Caboolture services could run express, and local service starting at Strathpine would service all stations. However, this latter service pattern would require additional reversing facilities at Strathpine, which are complicated by the directional uses of each track. This would also reduce the maximum frequency of services that could serve Caboolture and Sunshine Coast (to approx. 16tph).
    Stations would have an optimal mix of car parking, local feeder buses, kiss'n'ride drop off, and active transport access (walking/bike). With a 4 track layout, a central island platform with inner local and lateral express tracks would be most preferable at stations between Everton Park and Beams Road (see suggested track map). Stations would be designed to allow for up to 9-car trains in the future.
    Alternative options that would need a cost/benefit analysis are for a tunnel routing via Ashgrove and Enoggera, or for 2 stations at Felstead Street and Rode Road instead of 3 at Stafford Road, Flockton Street, and Hamilton Road. 3 tracks may slightly lower costs, but would prevent express services from overtaking all stations services in the counter-peak direction. With 3 tracks, two side platforms would be required, with a centre express track. If not connected to CRR, a dedicated underground terminus could be built at Roma Street (or elsewhere in the CBD), but this would considerably add to the cost, and cause an inefficient North/South train service imbalance compared to through routing all CRR services. Using the existing Ferny Grove Line as an alternative to tunnelling between Roma Street and Alderley would have negative implications on capacity and journey time, and is thus a poor option.

So what is required to make this happen?

    Political competence, forward thinking, bi-partisan thinking, and funding. These are all currently sadly lacking in Queensland.
    Urgently change the design of CRR to allow for a junction near Countess Street (without having to temporarily close CRR for months).
    Further route safeguarding, especially in the Enoggera/Alderley area, and between Beams Road and the North Coast Line.

Construction of the North West Transport Corridor / Trouts Road Line is critical for allowing "fast trains to the Sunshine Coast", significantly increasing capacity on the Sunshine Coast, Caboolture, and Redcliffe Peninsula Lines, and improving public transport to the Northern suburbs of Brisbane. It is also important that provision is made for this line to connect into the proposed CRR tunnels, otherwise CRR will need to be closed for months to allow for this work to occur.

QuoteIt is possible to service local transport needs and express running.  But requires a few more tracks.

I think this requires some further detailed analysis.

- You could theoretically place LRT on or below the Gympie Road corridor.
- You could also look at rail-based metro options to Chermside rather than BRT.

The trouble with using commuter rail for local services as well as express services is that at some point they will probably have to merge on to the same tracks. And if the corridor cannot be used on the surface and must be tunnel, what is the point of still following Trouts Rd corridor as an alignment? The optimal alignment for rapid transit west of Gympie Rd might be Old Northern Rd/South Pine Rd instead IMHO.

- The total capacity is a set value, say 20-24 trains per hour.
- The capacity of the whole line will be set by the merged/shared section of the track
- If we only have Sunshine Coast line trains, then we can use the full 20-24 trains per hour to Sunshine coast in peak hour.
- You might want to throw some Kippa-Ring trains into there as well

- If we mix local and express trains on the alignment - if they share tracks at any point then it becomes necessary to divide that peak hour capacity between local and express services. The cost to construct would also increase 1.5x - 2x as you would need to pay for more stations, more rolling stock etc.

That said, it is something that IA or TMR should assess as an option.

An alternative is to run BRT up South Pine and Old Northern Road and either continue that to the CBD or feed that into existing rail at Enoggera station. That can be done in the next 10 years IMHO and would be cost-effective.

I think TMR and TransLink probably need to be asked to do their own study using BCC's report as an input to refine this rail alignment and local rapid transit options for both Gympie Road and Old Northern Rd/South Pine Rd.

I've been thinking about this, and I reckon there's only one explanation for BCC's proposal: politics. So I'm trying not to take it too seriously.

The council knows it's garbage, they know it contradicts their own research and they know it won't get anywhere with IA - at which point they can incorrectly claim the state and federal governments are holding up "progress".

And even though it wouldn't be a council road, if they've chipped in some $, BCC can take some of the credit for a road project and get away with it. This is less plausible for rail because everyone knows council has nothing to do with rail.

Might sound overly cynical, but that's how BCC works.

Btw, I'm all for RAIL 1! It provides the most coverage and best connections.
Chermside is a major destination and needs good service, but not at the expense of the other connectivity RAIL 1 provides. Rail infrastructure is more permanent than any shopping centre.

I think that BCC has the right idea about the train though, with it being just two stops and mostly underground. Bummer about it being pushed back to 2041. Yet, there are other priorities to complete before then like the Coolangatta extension and the actual train to Maroochydore as well as Toowoomba Taking this into account the timeline for this proposed line is about right.

The growth area not serviced well is the Albany Creek to Enoggera/Alderley corridor!  I see now Trout Road ends up being too close to Gympie Rd (which should have BRT/Light Rail)

If the rail is to service the car-dependent area of Albany Ck to Alderley then the train line needs to be further west near Albany Ck to start with then come back east towards Flockton St then Stafford Rd.

I don't believe any of the above ideas are mutually exclusive. Here's my ideal scenario

1) Build Rail tunnel using the straight alignment, with rail interchange at Chermside. This tunnel would be used by Sunshine Coast Express trains only

2) Complete the Northern Busway to Chermside/Bracken Ridge to fill in the gaps of local service. Run Brisbane Metro along it. It's silly to be talking about LRT along that corridor when we are this far down the road of being committed to the Brisbane Metro BRT design

3) Use the NWTC to build a local rail line only, as a branch of the Ferny Grove line. As others have stated the alignment is not well suited to serve Sunshine Coast Express trains, and the local area desperately needs more PT. Build it at surface where possible. I dismiss BCC's notion that the ENTIRE corridor is environmentally sensitive. There certainly may be pockets which are as such (Chermside Hills reserve for example) but there are plenty of other sections which would be fine. So build a local, two track railway that branches off the Ferny Grove line around Alderley, and has stations at all the important local spots:
- Everton Park at Stafford Road
- McDowell at Rode Road
- Aspley at Albany Creek Road
- Bridgeman Downs at Beams Road
Then have it join back up to the main line at Strathpine, which would be rebuilt as a much larger station with enough platforms for services to terminate here. Think of the role Hornsby plays in Sydney. The benefit of linking up to Strathpine still is that it provides a redundant connection for trains coming from the North should the line from Strathpine to Albion be closed for whatever reason.
The Ferny Grove line post CRR will have a lot of spare capacity so it would be easy to run a branching service off that line. Opportunities to interchange at Alderley and Strathpine create further connectivity. And most importantly, you don't have to worry about Sunshine Coast Express services because they have their own dedicate tunnel!

This is the best outcome for all in my opinion. It is the most expensive, but I think it's the most efficient use of the infrastructure and corridors available to meet all the needs that council is trying to push the NWTC to meet:
- Lessen local traffic on Gympie Road (finish Northern Busway)
- Provide PT trunk service to NW suburbs (build local rail line in NWTC)
- Provide dedicated high speed express ROW for Sunshine Coast services (build Chermside rail tunnel)

The expense of this option is obviously immense, but I would hope that the Sunshine Coast Express tunnel would be able to be built largely with FEDERAL funding under the National Faster Rail scheme. This frees up State funds to build the NWTC local rail line and the busway, and I would have BCC chip in to pay for the busway infrastructure, much like they are doing with the current Brisbane Metro stuff.

I think DTMR/TransLink need to do a considered study. Expanding rail is really the only solution for a city that is spread regionally with distances approaching 100 km between centres.

I've done a quick mock-up of a slower, local train line (purple) in the Trouts Rd Corridor and Rapid Transit running along Old Northern Road as well for comparison.

Both feed into Enoggera Station.

If we had Rapid Transit in the median of South Pine and Old Northern Roads, and that fed into Enoggera station, you could string cross-town buses from the stations on South Pine and Old Northern Roads across the Northside's street grid.

In that case, would embarking on rail in the Trouts Road corridor still add much above that? Particularly if SC trains are not going to use that?

Wouldn't it be better to run the train (or whatever mode - Metro Bus BRT, LRT, or Metro Rail is also possible) along the Old Northern Road alignment to Eatons Hill as thats where the settlement is?

The Streetlight Effect is to consider a solution that is easiest and perhaps not the most appropriate or suitable. Trouts Rd might not be the right PT alignment, even if it is already there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetlight_effect

QuoteThe streetlight effect, or the drunkard's search principle, is a type of observational bias that occurs when people only search for something where it is easiest to look.[1][2][3][4] Both names refer to a well-known joke:

A policeman sees a drunk man searching for something under a streetlight and asks what the drunk has lost. He says he lost his keys and they both look under the streetlight together. After a few minutes the policeman asks if he is sure he lost them here, and the drunk replies, no, and that he lost them in the park. The policeman asks why he is searching here, and the drunk replies, "this is where the light is".

The other possibility to consider is simply placing a local road - 2 lanes + shoulders for car parking along the Trouts Rd corridor. You could then run a bus or BUZ service along it, feeding Enoggera station. As it is not a motorway and no tunnels, that would be very low cost.

You could avoid tunneling by diverting buses along Whites Rd - Stringybark Drive - Horn Road and connect the two disconnected parts of Horn Rd together. A connection road between Albany Creek Rd and Ridley Road over Cabbage Tree Ck is also required to make this connection work.

Sunshine Valley Gazette 24th August 2022 page 24

Why we need the North West Corridor

by Jeffrey Addison
Sunshine Coast Commuter Advocate

QuoteOn 11 August, Brisbane City Council (BCC) released the business case study for their proposed North West Transport Network (NWTN). The plan partly comprises use of the North West Transport Corridor (NWTC), also known as Trouts Road corridor.

The NWTC was first proposed by Wilbur Smith and Associates, an American transportation and infrastructure company, in 1965. The company was founded in 1952 by Wilbur S. Smith (no relation to famous author Wilbur A. Smith).

Smith was a Civil Engineer and an innovator in modern transport. He helped design major parts of the US Interstate highway system including the New Jersey Turnpike, the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel and the Washington DC mass transit system.

He also counselled NASA on ways to operate their commercial ventures in space.

He passed away aged 78, on 25 July 1990. In the early 1980s land was set aside for the 9km long and up to 60m wide NWTC.

It stretches from Alderley/Everton Park in the south up to Carseldine/Strathpine in the north. It is state owned land that has lain dormant as a dedicated transport corridor for over 40 years. That inaction is coming home to roost.

Today urban growth to its surrounds has started to crowd out the corridor, and within it are environmentally sensitive areas that need to be protected from surface works.

BCC finalised the $10 million federally-funded business case and came up with some multi-billion dollar options including new (tolled and/or untolled) tunnelled motorways with bus rapid transit (BRT) and rail.

Unfortunately their plan is to have the roads and BRT options by 2031, but delay rail until 2041.

This despite the fact their consultation showed 57% of locals want improvements to public transport, 26% want improvements to roads, 11% want bike infrastructure, 3% want parking and 2% want pedestrian infrastructure.

The Stage 2 consultation report (March 2022) said: Across all data collection methods, the road ideas presented were the least preferred (p19). Council received 541 pieces of feedback for the five road ideas.

Feedback provided indicated that the community broadly does not see new roads as the solution to the transport problems in the northwest and that a move to public transport is preferred (p20). The rail option was the most popular across all feedback collection methods, except in the quick poll.

Connectivity on a local and regional level was the foundation of support for rail, plus a perceived lack of existing rail service options within Brisbane's north-west (p24). Outside of rail duplication from Beerwah northwards, the Sunshine Coast and Moreton Bay regions need improvement for their future rail transport that is not provided by Cross River Rail (CRR).

CRR essentially provides two extra tracks for the southside - but no extra capacity for the northside, thus stymying rail. It's probably why the Government wants to build a parallel highway to Caboolture West.

BCC are examining improvements to northside roads, buses and (not their responsibility) rail.

When will the state government action better northside rail? After all, it's their land.

So, could a 2 tunnel rail solution be an option.

For faster rail, just a direct tunnel from Albion/Mayne to Carseldine, 9km, with a single stop at Chermside.

For suburban rail, an NWTC line that is designed purely as a Ferny Grove branch, using spare capacity on the subs.

QuoteFor faster rail, just a direct tunnel from Albion/Mayne to Carseldine, 9km, with a single stop at Chermside.

 

QuoteFor suburban rail, an NWTC line that is designed purely as a Ferny Grove branch, using spare capacity on the subs.

If it is a tunnel then there is no strict requirement to follow the NWTC. A better alignment would be broadly following the Old Northern Road alignment to Albany Creek. It is probably too early to assign a mode for this second tunnel, but I note rail could potentially go to Warner or Joyner.

 

Little nit pick. CRR may not provide additional capacity for the Northside but the Northside has the advantage of track layout, speed, future infrastructure upgrades (corridor width and stabling locations) and not yet at capacity. Also has the advantage of future proofing as 9 car operations are relatively straight forward and easy to set up north of Petrie (Eagle Junction would loose connectivity and I think Northgate will get away with extending the mains platforms north as they used to work 8 car ICE trains/future proofed for 250m long trains with the quad until the tilts came in).

Quote from: #Metro on September 06, 2022, 12:09:59 PM

QuoteFor faster rail, just a direct tunnel from Albion/Mayne to Carseldine, 9km, with a single stop at Chermside.

 

QuoteFor suburban rail, an NWTC line that is designed purely as a Ferny Grove branch, using spare capacity on the subs.

If it is a tunnel then there is no strict requirement to follow the NWTC. A better alignment would be broadly following the Old Northern Road alignment to Albany Creek. It is probably too early to assign a mode for this second tunnel, but I note rail could potentially go to Warner or Joyner.

 

I dont believe the NWTC needs to be in a tunnel aside from Chermside hills reserve. Yeah BCC put foward the idea of tunnelling it, but they are full of it.

Quote from: Gazza on September 06, 2022, 14:44:57 PM

Quote from: #Metro on September 06, 2022, 12:09:59 PM

QuoteFor faster rail, just a direct tunnel from Albion/Mayne to Carseldine, 9km, with a single stop at Chermside.

 

QuoteFor suburban rail, an NWTC line that is designed purely as a Ferny Grove branch, using spare capacity on the subs.

If it is a tunnel then there is no strict requirement to follow the NWTC. A better alignment would be broadly following the Old Northern Road alignment to Albany Creek. It is probably too early to assign a mode for this second tunnel, but I note rail could potentially go to Warner or Joyner.

 

I dont believe the NWTC needs to be in a tunnel aside from Chermside hills reserve. Yeah BCC put foward the idea of tunnelling it, but they are full of it.

Agreed. Severely doubt the NWTC needs to be fully tunneled as BCC suggests

My ideal is the three pronged approach Ive mentioned before.
1) Sunshine Coast fast rail direct tunnel, with one stop at Chermside
2) NWTC built as local railway as branch of Ferny Grove line, using additional capacity made available by CRR
3) Northern Busway built in completion to Chermside/Bracken Ridge

Trouts road as a railway corridor was to have very little tunnelling as bcc suggest. The majority of it was to be cut and cover with elevated sections over roads. Similar to the original Nambour line upgrade from 2004 and the MBRL in terms of elevated sections near Albany creek road. Chermside reserves is unlikely to have too many problems as the corridor is already an easement which requires land clearing and is borderline with houses so it's not going through the centre of the reserve which bcc also try to scare locals with.

QuoteI dont believe the NWTC needs to be in a tunnel aside from Chermside hills reserve. Yeah BCC put foward the idea of tunnelling it, but they are full of it.

- A simple local road may be sufficient for the NWTC corridor. That would allow a bus to run along Trouts Rd and connect at the existing Enoggera Station. Ridley Rd would be connected to Albany Creek Road, and the two disconnected halves of Trouts Road would be connected.

- IMHO the better corridor for PT in terms of where residences are, is along the Old Northern Road alignment,not the NWTC. Building Rapid or Mass Transit is following Old Northern Road is probably a better proposition.

- NWTC would be good for a veloway feeding into Enoggera and filling it in with trees. Could be interesting.

QuoteIMHO the better corridor for PT in terms of where residences are, is along the Old Northern Road alignment, not the NWTC.

When you say "Where the residences are" what do you mean?

Because when you look at this Aerial image of both corridors, there is no perceptible difference in terms of the availability of residences on either route.
All just suburbia.
(Though Great Northern Road has large section of conservation park in the catchment)

Is missing Albany Creek's town centre not an issue there?

Quote from: #Metro on September 07, 2022, 12:09:27 PMIs missing Albany Creek's town centre not an issue there?

Just improve BUZ routes down Old Northern road

Quote from: #Metro on September 07, 2022, 12:09:27 PMIs missing Albany Creek's town centre not an issue there?

I mean, here's the rub.
NWTC can be mostly above ground despite what BCC have said, and the state owns the land already.
(Remember, BCC are saying it cant be done in order to frame the debate around a Gympie Road toll route instead)

But a Great Northern Road route would need to be mostly in tunnel, and land purchased.
the NWTC route will undoubtedly.
So do you spend several billion extra for the tunneling to serve the Albany Creek town center.
From what i understand, it's just a suburban Coles plaza basically:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Albany+Creek+QLD+4035/@-27.3461007,152.9687709,347m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x6b93fd9d57d69bed:0x502a35af3de7df0!8m2!3d-27.3455107!4d152.9684079

Arguably it's swings and roundabouts anyway since the NWTC line serves the Aspely Hypermarket commercial area.

No matter what happens, one area will get rail one will get a bus right?

Didn't know Albany Creek had a town centre but Albany Creek Village is hardly anything to rave about. The same can be said for Albany Creek Central. Depending where you are coming/going both locations can be a bitch of a place to get to. If your driving you can be better off going to Aspley Hypermarket as you have Sunlit, Woolies, Aldi and Coles all in the same small area. There's the local at Eaton's Hill. Another iga in Strathpine and more shops in warner. There is also an Aldi further along Albany creek road but once again depending on where you are going/coming from the hypermarket tends to be the better option. Not to mention always has a larger amount of stock and shop floor space.