RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Queensland Parliament E-Petition

https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/Work-of-the-Assembly/Petitions/Petition-Details?id=3781

PROVISION OF BUS SERVICES TO RESIDENTS IN KARANA DOWNS, MOUNT CROSBY, LAKE MANCHESTER, KHOLO, ANSTEAD AND SURROUNDING AREAS

TO: The Honourable the Speaker and Members of the Legislative Assembly of Queensland

Queensland residents draws to the attention to the House, that there are currently no contracted bus services provided by the State Government to the suburbs of Karana Downs, Mount Crosby, Lake Manchester, Kholo, Anstead and surrounding areas, within the Brisbane Local Government Area.

Your petitioners, therefore, request the extension of the State Government's service area for contracted public transport, and provide dedicated state funding for such bus services in these suburbs, with the contracted delivery to be undertaken by Brisbane City Council.

Why does it matter who runs this service if it ever is introduced?

Muppets

QuoteWhy does it matter who runs this service if it ever is introduced?

Muppets

They know BCC will put on a direct rocket bus via the freeway perhaps? 🤔

They're in the BCC area, I think it's a reasonable expectation that TfB would run their buses if they had any.

There is already a PPT service serving Karana Downs and Anstead: https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/traffic-and-transport/public-transport/personalised-public-transport#Karana%20Downs

While it's not the best, it's still better than the service of some areas of Brisbane, and much better than whatever service the Gold Coast 'growth corridor' suburbs are getting (think the new Coomera bus routes or the 736 / 739 which run hourly or two-hourly and finish at 3pm).

Given Kholo has a population of 396 people and a density of 10/km2 (Kenmore, for comparison, has a density of 1545/km2), it doesn't particularly warrant a bus service, and would actually fall below the minimum density which TransLink is required to serve.

I think the solution here would be to extend the PPT so it runs during the middle of the day as well (hourly) and on Sundays, rather than put a bus on.

Where do they want the routes? On which roads and connecting which stops/stations? 

The plot thickens

Quote from: Cr Greg AdermannOne of the biggest frustrations in my time as local Councillor has been the Palaszczuk State Government's ongoing reluctance to provide public transport services to the western areas of the Pullenvale Ward, including Karana Downs, Mount Crosby, Kholo, Lake Manchester and Anstead.
This has resulted in the Brisbane City Council providing Personalised Public Transport (Black and White maxi-taxi) services in the Karana Downs and Mount Crosby areas. These services are well utilised and indicates to me that there is sufficient demand for a regular bus service.
Brisbane's bus services are managed by the Queensland Government which determines the routes and schedules, and then contracts Brisbane City Council to operate the services.
Central to the issue is that Karana Downs, Mount Crosby, Kholo, Lake Manchester and Anstead are inexplicably NOT included on the Queensland Government's public transport service map for Brisbane.
We need that to change that so that we can start advocating for a full bus service to these suburbs.
I have started an online petition, sponsored and supported by the State Member for Moggill, Dr Christian Rowan MP, to the Queensland Parliament to do this. Please support my petition and let's show that as Brisbane City Council residents, you should be included in planning for public transport. Go to https://bit.ly/3db8jYU to support this petition.
If we can convince the Queensland Government to support this, it will enable Brisbane City Council to be contracted to deliver such bus services to your suburb.

A big nope from me. Nothing but a political stunt by Cr Adermann IMO. Surely he doesn't seriously expect the State Government to provide public transport to a suburb with a population of 23 people (Lake Manchester at 2016 Census)?

The only one of these that maybe (and that's a big maybe) deserves any kind of bus service is Karana Downs, and tbh an on-demand service is probably sufficient. Maybe BCC shouldn't engage in such poor urban planning practices.

Quote from: achiruel on August 09, 2022, 02:15:58 AMA big nope from me. Nothing but a political stunt by Cr Adermann IMO. Surely he doesn't seriously expect the State Government to provide public transport to a suburb with a population of 23 people (Lake Manchester at 2016 Census)?

The only one of these that maybe (and that's a big maybe) deserves any kind of bus service is Karana Downs, and tbh an on-demand service is probably sufficient. Maybe BCC shouldn't engage in such poor urban planning practices.

From memory, BCC provided Karana Downs et al an on demand service many years ago (I think it ran to Indooroopilly?), but has since ended....probably due to low patronage?

A bit of trivia, myself and the senior planner did look at putting in a bus service from Ipswich to Karana Downs back in 2006/07, however, the contract managers then pointed out that we legally could not do that as it was outside of the TransLink contracted area of which the boundary is the Warrego Hwy, and they weren't willing to take on a new operator under TransLink that services Karana Downs.

Quote from: STB on August 09, 2022, 04:07:05 AM

Quote from: achiruel on August 09, 2022, 02:15:58 AMA big nope from me. Nothing but a political stunt by Cr Adermann IMO. Surely he doesn't seriously expect the State Government to provide public transport to a suburb with a population of 23 people (Lake Manchester at 2016 Census)?

The only one of these that maybe (and that's a big maybe) deserves any kind of bus service is Karana Downs, and tbh an on-demand service is probably sufficient. Maybe BCC shouldn't engage in such poor urban planning practices.

From memory, BCC provided Karana Downs et al an on demand service many years ago (I think it ran to Indooroopilly?), but has since ended....probably due to low patronage?

A bit of trivia, myself and the senior planner did look at putting in a bus service from Ipswich to Karana Downs back in 2006/07, however, the contract managers then pointed out that we legally could not do that as it was outside of the TransLink contracted area of which the boundary is the Warrego Hwy, and they weren't willing to take on a new operator under TransLink that services Karana Downs.

How does it work when a route crosses multiple contract service areas? e.g. 545 which originates in the Park Ridge/Beaudesert contract areas but then passes through Logan and Brisbane. Surely there is some kind of method that would allow this to happen?

Alternatively, couldn't DTMR just review the contract area? Connecting bus to Ipswich for Karana Downs makes the most sense from a network perspective IMO.

Edit: a non-subsidised service from Ipswich Station to Indooroopilly was operated until 2009. Not sure when it started. Old timetable available here: https://www.southerncrosstransit.com.au/_files/ugd/3c9c82_657efbc2889c4160bb3a0af31c858960.pdf

Quote from: achiruel on August 09, 2022, 04:32:39 AM

Quote from: STB on August 09, 2022, 04:07:05 AM

Quote from: achiruel on August 09, 2022, 02:15:58 AMA big nope from me. Nothing but a political stunt by Cr Adermann IMO. Surely he doesn't seriously expect the State Government to provide public transport to a suburb with a population of 23 people (Lake Manchester at 2016 Census)?

The only one of these that maybe (and that's a big maybe) deserves any kind of bus service is Karana Downs, and tbh an on-demand service is probably sufficient. Maybe BCC shouldn't engage in such poor urban planning practices.

From memory, BCC provided Karana Downs et al an on demand service many years ago (I think it ran to Indooroopilly?), but has since ended....probably due to low patronage?

A bit of trivia, myself and the senior planner did look at putting in a bus service from Ipswich to Karana Downs back in 2006/07, however, the contract managers then pointed out that we legally could not do that as it was outside of the TransLink contracted area of which the boundary is the Warrego Hwy, and they weren't willing to take on a new operator under TransLink that services Karana Downs.

How does it work when a route crosses multiple contract service areas? e.g. 545 which originates in the Park Ridge/Beaudesert contract areas but then passes through Logan and Brisbane. Surely there is some kind of method that would allow this to happen?

Alternatively, couldn't DTMR just review the contract area? Connecting bus to Ipswich for Karana Downs makes the most sense from a network perspective IMO.

Edit: a non-subsidised service from Ipswich Station to Indooroopilly was operated until 2009. Not sure when it started. Old timetable available here: https://www.southerncrosstransit.com.au/_files/ugd/3c9c82_657efbc2889c4160bb3a0af31c858960.pdf

Southern Cross Transit, that's the operator, I remember now.  Basically TransLink didn't want to risk being sued by Southern Cross Transit by putting Westside or another operator into Karana Downs, as Southern Cross Transit had the legal right to service that area at the time (not sure if that's still the case), and the Contract Managers didn't want to bring Southern Cross Transit into TransLink (probably for budgeting reasons - us Planners weren't really told why).

We were legally able to go as far as the current route 514 goes now, any further and we would've encroached on Southern Cross Transit's contracted service area which is outside of the TransLink network, so legal issues would've come up.

We definitely looked at it, even drove out there to have a look at the road network and inspect potential bus stop sites, but was very quickly shut down by contracts, when we approached them about potentially doing it.

I don't know if they will be willing to revisit it?  Maybe?  Probably not until after the smart ticketing project is fully rolled out though.

Re: Route 545 and 560 etc, both Park Ridge Transit and Logan City Bus Service are contracted operators, so there isn't really an issue (unless you're BCC and think you own the bridges and busways in Brisbane - but that's another story).

Quote from: STB on August 09, 2022, 04:07:05 AM

Quote from: achiruel on August 09, 2022, 02:15:58 AMA big nope from me. Nothing but a political stunt by Cr Adermann IMO. Surely he doesn't seriously expect the State Government to provide public transport to a suburb with a population of 23 people (Lake Manchester at 2016 Census)?

The only one of these that maybe (and that's a big maybe) deserves any kind of bus service is Karana Downs, and tbh an on-demand service is probably sufficient. Maybe BCC shouldn't engage in such poor urban planning practices.

From memory, BCC provided Karana Downs et al an on demand service many years ago (I think it ran to Indooroopilly?), but has since ended....probably due to low patronage?

A bit of trivia, myself and the senior planner did look at putting in a bus service from Ipswich to Karana Downs back in 2006/07, however, the contract managers then pointed out that we legally could not do that as it was outside of the TransLink contracted area of which the boundary is the Warrego Hwy, and they weren't willing to take on a new operator under TransLink that services Karana Downs.

BCC still runs a taxi service to connect with 444. 

The contract "regions" really don't make any sense to me - just historical accidents.

It really should be done on the basis of packages of routes, whatever they happen to be, and subject to reconfiguration from time to time.  The whole idea of "territory" really no longer makes any sense.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Moggill+Rd+at+Moggill/-27.6134272,152.7601133/@-27.5710318,152.7890836,15854m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m34!4m33!1m30!1m1!1s0x6b914c57d296c921:0x259077a45c1ae0bc!2m2!1d152.874198!2d-27.570473!3m4!1m2!1d152.8886153!2d-27.5533172!3s0x6b914db080e86a4b:0xfc7ef985d60dce28!3m4!1m2!1d152.8317265!2d-27.543744!3s0x6b914d2dc33bb517:0xde77d8cb1260bc5b!3m4!1m2!1d152.799875!2d-27.5674285!3s0x6b96b314df08dbe3:0x8a48d77c9bcb4770!3m4!1m2!1d152.7629728!2d-27.5991162!3s0x6b96b46946181f81:0xbd6a96b160ef5bee!3m4!1m2!1d152.758267!2d-27.6063398!3s0x6b96b440e507e1a1:0xe3a2b67162e07911!1m0!3e0

What about something like this as an hourly service? Provides basic coverage for those developed/developing areas Karana Downs, Chuwar and Karalee that definitely deserve some form of regular PT (PPT services don't quite cut it). It also means that travel from Moggill to Ipswich by PT is reduced from over 90 mins (via Indooroopilly) to around just 40 mins!

It would probably best to be operated by Bus Queensland (Ipswich operator) or even Southern Cross Transit like before, because BCC would find a way to still need to dead run buses to/from Ipswich.

Edit: also out of interest, note the TransLink double-bus shelter already installed outside Karalee Shopping Village for (presumably) school services. It seems to have been there since pre-2010. https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.5716664,152.7981254,3a,75y,221.48h,74.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slr6lqbVS8JYgefvdzTMXsw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Quote from: Cazza on August 09, 2022, 10:30:10 AMhttps://www.google.com/maps/dir/Moggill+Rd+at+Moggill/-27.6134272,152.7601133/@-27.5710318,152.7890836,15854m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m34!4m33!1m30!1m1!1s0x6b914c57d296c921:0x259077a45c1ae0bc!2m2!1d152.874198!2d-27.570473!3m4!1m2!1d152.8886153!2d-27.5533172!3s0x6b914db080e86a4b:0xfc7ef985d60dce28!3m4!1m2!1d152.8317265!2d-27.543744!3s0x6b914d2dc33bb517:0xde77d8cb1260bc5b!3m4!1m2!1d152.799875!2d-27.5674285!3s0x6b96b314df08dbe3:0x8a48d77c9bcb4770!3m4!1m2!1d152.7629728!2d-27.5991162!3s0x6b96b46946181f81:0xbd6a96b160ef5bee!3m4!1m2!1d152.758267!2d-27.6063398!3s0x6b96b440e507e1a1:0xe3a2b67162e07911!1m0!3e0

What about something like this as an hourly service? Provides basic coverage for those developed/developing areas Karana Downs, Chuwar and Karalee that definitely deserve some form of regular PT (PPT services don't quite cut it). It also means that travel from Moggill to Ipswich by PT is reduced from over 90 mins (via Indooroopilly) to around just 40 mins!

It would probably best to be operated by Bus Queensland (Ipswich operator) or even Southern Cross Transit like before, because BCC would find a way to still need to dead run buses to/from Ipswich.

Edit: also out of interest, note the TransLink double-bus shelter already installed outside Karalee Shopping Village for (presumably) school services. It seems to have been there since pre-2010. https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.5716664,152.7981254,3a,75y,221.48h,74.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slr6lqbVS8JYgefvdzTMXsw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Looks like a good idea to me! Connections at Bellbowrie to the frequent 444 (and P443 during peak), connections to many Ipswich routes at Riverlink and the train at Ipswich Station (and maybe a few more Ipswich routes that don't service Riverlink, although I'm not sure how many (if any) are in that category. Don't really think you can expect much more for such a far-flung, low density area.

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1557656851495493632

Queensland Parliament

Hon Mark Bailey MP - Response from the Minister for Transport and Main Roads (Hon. Bailey), to an ePetition (3781-22) sponsored by the member for Moggill, Dr Rowan, from 1,598 petitioners, requesting the House to provide contracted Brisbane City Council bus services to the suburbs of Karana Downs, Mount Crosby, Lake Manchester, Kholo, Anstead and surrounding areas [Petitions - responses]

Response > https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tp/2022/5722T2077-4CF6.pdf

8 December 2022
Mr Neil Laurie
The Clerk of the Parliament
Parliament House
George Street
BRISBANE QLD 4000

Dear Mr Laurie

I refer to petition 3781-22, lodged with the Legislative Assembly by Dr Christian Rowan MP,
Member for Moggill on 8 November 2022, about the provision of bus services to residents in
Karana Downs, Mount Crosby, Lake Manchester, Kholo, Anstead and surrounding areas.

The Department of Transport and Main Roads' Translink Division (Translink) is committed to
providing an integrated and efficient public transport network. It is not always possible to
provide transport services to all areas of Queensland. This is particularly the case in lowdensity and semi-rural regions, as they are often significantly more expensive to service and
demand is generally inadequate to support stand-alone scheduled services.

Translink acknowledges the requests by the local community for access to the public
transport network. While Karana Downs has a small number of suburban style housing
estates, overall, the suburbs of Karana Downs, Mount Crosby, Anstead, Kholo and Lake
Manchester have very low levels of density, and only a small proportion of the population
lives in close proximity to roads which would support bus services.

Given the above, there are currently no plans to provide a bus service to these suburbs. The
Personalised Public Transport service provided by Brisbane City Council is currently the best
option to service the Karana Downs area. For more information on Personalised Public
Transport services, please visit www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/traffic-transport/publictransport/special-taxi-services/personalised-public-transport.

This service allows residents to connect to the high-frequency bus route 444, which provides
a service along the Moggill Road corridor to the Brisbane CBD and Southbank. The Kenmore
park 'n' ride facility and upgraded stops at Grandview Road provide additional options for
residents to connect with bus route 444.

I trust this information is of assistance.

Yours sincerely
MARK BAILEY MP
Minister for Transport and Main Road

Mostly agree with the Minister, but disagree regarding Karana Downs. It really should have a regular bus service.