RAIL - Back On Track Forum

 

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Media release: Cross River Rail (CRR) - how will the Citytrain network operate when CRR is commissioned?

17th May 2022

RAIL Back On Track has made representations for a number of years now to have Cross River Rail publish a rail operational network diagram when CRR is in use.  This diagram will show an overview of how the network is sectorised (paired) and will function.  This is important for the public to know.  Still not published. RTI requests we made for the information were rejected (what is there to hide?).

Using the available information such as the redacted CRR business case, CRR project changes and the like, we have come up with an unofficial network diagram (below).  We have previously asked the Minister for Transport Mark Bailey and Cross River Rail to tell us if the network diagram is incorrect. If it is incorrect, supply a correct one.  Ignored, no response.  This is contrary to good government principles, but that is another matter. We are used to being ignored by feeble Governments and their agencies.

Melbourne is constructing a rail tunnel which will open in 2025, just like Cross River Rail.  This tunnel is known as the "Metro Tunnel". For this project there is much information including network maps and individual line diagrams ( see https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/metro-tunnel/about/overview/benefits-for-your-train-line ).

Why is it other jurisdictions are happy to make this information available as a way of showing the public what the improvements in their rail network they can expect?  In Queensland it is just frothy, vague 'bubbles' of feel good statements, and social media vignettes to be taken on faith. We have been burned before with transport failures in SEQ, we don't have faith anymore unless we know the real facts. Government and its agencies cannot be trusted on past form.

We call on the Minister for Transport and Main Roads Mr Mark Bailey Mark Bailey MP to direct Cross River Rail to release information as for Metro Tunnel project in Melbourne.  It is not possible to build CRR without knowing how the network will operate in a general sense. We know that a Concept of Operations Document exists for Cross River Rail (300 pages plus) so it is known. An overall network map and specific line details at the level that is available for the Melbourne project is required. A failure to provide this information will confirm what many are already thinking, Cross River Rail is seriously flawed in what it will deliver in an operational sense for the SEQ rail network. Facts speak, spin, delay and bluster enourages even more doubt.

A Facebook post by RAIL Back On Track on this matter generated a huge response ( https://www.facebook.com/RAILBackOnTrack/posts/5585675961446545 ). The Palaszczuk Government has had its integrity called into question. I think we can add a lack of transparency to the causes of the growing dissatisfaction.

Notes re RBoT Network diagram ( below ):

Line pairings within sector groups could be different, but sectors are defined by the track layouts north of the tunnel and south of the tunnel.

Sector 1
Rosewood <> BNE Airport
Springfield Central <> Shorncliffe
Roma St <> Doomben

Sector 2
Cleveland <> Ferny Grove

Sector 3
Varsity Lakes <> Gympie North
Beenleigh <> Kippa-Ring

The suggested pairings are fluid in the sense that in peak trains could connect with lines the same sector of course, but the pairs would be the majority of workings. Pairings don't indicate that all services meet those pairs end to end.
They don't now, and wouldn't in 2025.



Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org alternate theozbob@gmail.com
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

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https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1530922144263454721

Sent to all outlets:

How will the SEQ Citytrain network operate when CRR is commissioned?

4th June 2022

RAIL Back On Track has made representations for a number of years now to have Cross River Rail Delivery Authority publish a rail operational network map when the tunnels are in service.  This map will show how the network is sectorised (paired).  This is important for the public to know.  Still not published.

Using the available information such as the redacted CRR business case, CRR project changes and the like, we have come up with an unofficial network plan (below).  We have previously asked the Minister for Transport Mark Bailey and Cross River Rail Delivery Authority to tell us if the map is incorrect.

No response.  Lack of a response suggests we are on the mark.

Melbourne is constructing a rail tunnel which will open in 2025, just like Cross River Rail.  This tunnel is known as the "Metro Tunnel". For this project there is much information including network maps and individual line diagrams ( see https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/metro-tunnel/about/overview/benefits-for-your-train-line ).

Why is it other jurisdictions are happy to make this information available as a way of showing the public what improvements and changes in their rail network they can expect.  In Queensland it is just construction videos, and vague 'bubbles' of feel good statements to be taken on faith. We have been burned before with costly transport failures in SEQ, we don't have faith anymore unless we know the real facts. Government and its agencies cannot be trusted on past form.

We call on the Minister for Transport and Main Roads Mr Mark Bailey Mark Bailey MP to direct Cross River Rail Delivery Authority to release information as for Metro Tunnel Melbourne.  It is not possible to build CRR without knowing how the network will operate. An overall network map and  specific line details at the level that is available for the Melbourne project is required. It is not acceptable to continue to hide this information.

A Facebook post by RAIL Back On Track on this matter generated a huge response ( https://www.facebook.com/RAILBackOnTrack/posts/5585675961446545 ). The Palaszczuk Government has had its integrity called into question.
I think we can add a lack of transparency to the causes of the growing dissatisfaction.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org



Notes re RBoT Network diagram :

Line pairings within sector groups could be different, but sectors are defined by the track layouts north of the tunnel and south of the tunnel.

Sector 1
Rosewood <> BNE Airport
Springfield Central <> Shorncliffe
Roma St <> Doomben

Sector 2
Cleveland <> Ferny Grove

Sector 3
Varsity Lakes <> Gympie North
Beenleigh <> Kippa-Ring

The suggested pairings are fluid in the sense that in peak trains could connect with lines the same sector of course, but the pairs would be the majority of workings. Pairings don't indicate that all services meet those pairs end to end. They don't now, and wouldn't in 2025.

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1532793692733329408

Official announcement commencement of Smart Ticketing on Ferny Grove line from Monday.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=740694943910922


^

Quote from: #Metro on June 04, 2022, 11:00:43 AMJourno actually mentioned Ozbob and the operational plan for CRR. Mark Bailey simply deferred and said that plans will be made in advance as the tunnel will not be opened for another three years.

(The reference is near the end of the clip).

Mark Bailey at the presser, last question.

" System will change ... "

" ... show some changes how the rail operational network will be structured ... "

Of course it will, the whole purpose of building the tunnels is to run trains in them ..

Nonsense isn't it.  Melbourne has had their network details up for years already, both tunnels open same year.

One could be forgiven that they have something to hide?  Got that one    ?

I will just keep plugging away ..

Brisbanetimes --> Commuters still in the dark about Cross River Rail's integration with train network

QuoteIt will be the biggest single addition to south-east Queensland's public transport system in a generation, but commuters remain in the dark about just how Cross River Rail will integrate with the rest of the train network.

Public transport advocate Robert Dow, from lobby group Rail Back on Track, said the Victorian government had been able to provide operational details for Melbourne's Metro Tunnel project which, like Cross River Rail, was due to open in 2025. ...

Facebook ...

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1533095053547085825

Sent to all outlets:

5th June 2022

Re: How will the SEQ Citytrain network operate when CRR is commissioned?

Good Morning,

Brisbanetimes has followed up, thank you.

Commuters still in the dark about Cross River Rail's integration with train network
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/commuters-still-in-the-dark-about-cross-river-rail-s-integration-with-train-network-20220604-p5ar2x.html

We note the question on these matters asked towards the end of the Facebook streamed press conference at Ferny Grove railway station 4th June 2022 which in response Minister Bailey acknowledged there will be changes to the rail network and how it it is structured.
(Press conference: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=740694943910922  around 19 min 20 sec mark)

This is the crux of the matter.  How the network will be structured is known, and would have been known for years.
Melbourne has had their changed network details up for years for Metro Tunnel, both tunnels open the same year in 2025.

It is both perplexing and very, very concerning that network operational details are being withheld for the SEQ Citytrain network when CRR is commissioned. Other jurisdictions DO NOT do this, they release the details so that the public is properly informed.

We look forward to the details being published this week. Thank you.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on June 04, 2022, 04:26:40 AMSent to all outlets:

How will the SEQ Citytrain network operate when CRR is commissioned?

4th June 2022

RAIL Back On Track has made representations for a number of years now to have Cross River Rail Delivery Authority publish a rail operational network map when the tunnels are in service.  This map will show how the network is sectorised (paired).  This is important for the public to know.  Still not published.

Using the available information such as the redacted CRR business case, CRR project changes and the like, we have come up with an unofficial network plan (below).  We have previously asked the Minister for Transport Mark Bailey and Cross River Rail Delivery Authority to tell us if the map is incorrect.

No response.  Lack of a response suggests we are on the mark.

Melbourne is constructing a rail tunnel which will open in 2025, just like Cross River Rail.  This tunnel is known as the "Metro Tunnel". For this project there is much information including network maps and individual line diagrams ( see https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/metro-tunnel/about/overview/benefits-for-your-train-line ).

Why is it other jurisdictions are happy to make this information available as a way of showing the public what improvements and changes in their rail network they can expect.  In Queensland it is just construction videos, and vague 'bubbles' of feel good statements to be taken on faith. We have been burned before with costly transport failures in SEQ, we don't have faith anymore unless we know the real facts. Government and its agencies cannot be trusted on past form.

We call on the Minister for Transport and Main Roads Mr Mark Bailey Mark Bailey MP to direct Cross River Rail Delivery Authority to release information as for Metro Tunnel Melbourne.  It is not possible to build CRR without knowing how the network will operate. An overall network map and  specific line details at the level that is available for the Melbourne project is required. It is not acceptable to continue to hide this information.

A Facebook post by RAIL Back On Track on this matter generated a huge response ( https://www.facebook.com/RAILBackOnTrack/posts/5585675961446545 ). The Palaszczuk Government has had its integrity called into question.
I think we can add a lack of transparency to the causes of the growing dissatisfaction.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org



Notes re RBoT Network diagram :

Line pairings within sector groups could be different, but sectors are defined by the track layouts north of the tunnel and south of the tunnel.

Sector 1
Rosewood <> BNE Airport
Springfield Central <> Shorncliffe
Roma St <> Doomben

Sector 2
Cleveland <> Ferny Grove

Sector 3
Varsity Lakes <> Gympie North
Beenleigh <> Kippa-Ring

The suggested pairings are fluid in the sense that in peak trains could connect with lines the same sector of course, but the pairs would be the majority of workings. Pairings don't indicate that all services meet those pairs end to end. They don't now, and wouldn't in 2025.

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1533159775482957825

Couriermail --> No maps yet but commuters to get plenty of warning for new network ahead of Cross River Rail $

QuoteTransport Minister Mark Bailey has warned commuters that Brisbane's rail network will be restructured for Cross River Rail. Here's what we know so far.

Transport Minister Mark Bailey has warned commuters that the state's rail network would be restructured for Cross River Rail but that it was too early to release the inaugural Brisbane underground map.

Mr Bailey said commuters would get plenty of notice about changes to the train network at the weekend launch of the smart ticketing system for the Ferny Grove line.

"It's more than three years until we open the Cross River Rail project so there is plenty of time yet (to release maps)," he said.

"We are working very hard on the operational plan. The system will change because with a whole new rail line we will need to adjust the system and there's no doubt about that.

"It will be released well within time and scope before we open systems. ...

What precisely is Mr Bailey et al. working hard on? We are not asking for the timetabling but the line pairing.

Are we supposed to believe that they are "still working on it"? Line pairings can be worked out from the track layouts.

It is testing credulity to the point of absurdity.



I will remind the casual reader of this thread that Melbourne has all the network information available for the Metro Tunnel when commissioned in 2025 (same year as CRR).  Complete contrast to the non-transparency here in Brisbane with respect to Cross River Rail.

https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/metro-tunnel/about/overview/benefits-for-your-train-line

An example:

Cranbourne / Pakenham lines

This line services presently run around the City loop.  Big change for the line when Metro Tunnel in service.

QuoteThe Metro Tunnel and associated network improvements will create room for 121,000 passengers every week on the Cranbourne and Pakenham lines during peak periods. That's 45% more peak capacity.

The Metro Tunnel will connect the Cranbourne and Pakenham lines to the Sunbury Line with 5 new underground stations and save up to 15 minutes on a journey to Parkville and 25 minutes to St Kilda Road.

The new Metro Tunnel stations will have longer platforms for longer trains. High Capacity Signalling will be installed between Watergardens and Dandenong to further increase the number of trains that can run each hour reliably and safely on the line.

Cranbourne and Pakenham Line passengers will be able to access City Loop services by interchanging at the new CBD stations which connect directly to Melbourne Central station and Flinders Street Station.

====

People know the changes on their lines.  Here in SEQ it is ' navel gazing ' or you trust RAIL Back On Track to do the right thing, which the Government appears very reluctant to do.  An equivalent situation here would be a line diagram for Gold Coast / Beenleigh lines showing the new path through the CRR tunnel and access to Woolloongabba and Albert St stations for example, and new routing to the north. All lines have the diagrams for Metro Tunnel, all lines on the Citytrain network should have the equivalent forthwith!

I am considering doing up line diagrams for our lines here in SEQ.  The Government and CRRDA seem completely disinterested or unwilling to do what is really required by any basic standard of decency.

The big question is:  WHY THE SECRECY ?

Quote from: ozbob on June 05, 2022, 00:22:29 AMFacebook ...

This post is getting a lot of attention. 
The public is rightly concerned and is owed proper and timely passage of information.

Been a good day!

  10

  0

  

Queensland Government is getting hot hot hot!  Burned, and will be increasingly so ... they deserve a good roast! 

Sent to all outlets:

7th June 2022

Further comment Re: How will the SEQ Citytrain network operate when CRR is commissioned?

Good Morning,

A lot of interest again on Facebook on a further post on how the SEQ Citytrain network will operate when CRR is commissioned
(How will the SEQ Citytrain network operate when CRR is commissioned? https://www.facebook.com/RAILBackOnTrack/posts/5749952495018890  )

To highlight just how poor and serious this failure of communication by the Minister, Cross River Rail Delivery Authority and Government is consider this example of pro-active communication from Melbourne about their Metro Tunnel, due for commissioning the same year as CRR (2025).

Melbourne has all the network information available for the Metro Tunnel when commissioned in 2025 (same year as CRR) including individual line diagrams.  Complete contrast to the non-transparency here in Brisbane with respect to Cross River Rail.

https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/metro-tunnel/about/overview/benefits-for-your-train-line

An example:

Cranbourne / Pakenham lines

This line services presently run around the City loop.  Big change for the line when Metro Tunnel in service.

Quote
"The Metro Tunnel and associated network improvements will create room for 121,000 passengers every week on the Cranbourne and Pakenham lines during peak periods. That's 45% more peak capacity.

The Metro Tunnel will connect the Cranbourne and Pakenham lines to the Sunbury Line with 5 new underground stations and save up to 15 minutes on a journey to Parkville and 25 minutes to St Kilda Road.

The new Metro Tunnel stations will have longer platforms for longer trains. High Capacity Signalling will be installed between Watergardens and Dandenong to further increase the number of trains that can run each hour reliably and safely on the line.

Cranbourne and Pakenham Line passengers will be able to access City Loop services by interchanging at the new CBD stations which connect directly to Melbourne Central station and Flinders Street Station."




People in Melbourne know the changes on their lines, and have known for years already.  Here in SEQ it is ' navel gazing ' or you may trust RAIL Back On Track to do the right thing on what information is publicly available, and which the Government appears very reluctant to do.  An equivalent situation here would be a line diagram for Gold Coast / Beenleigh lines showing the new path through the CRR tunnel and access to Woolloongabba and Albert St stations for example, and new routing to the north. All lines have the diagrams for Metro Tunnel, all lines on the Citytrain network should have the equivalent forthwith!

We are considering doing up line diagrams for our lines here in SEQ.  The Government and CRRDA seem completely disinterested or unwilling to do what is really required by any basic standard of decency.

The big question is:  WHY THE SECRECY ?  It is creating great concern now.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Attached:  https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=259008

Quote... The big question is:  WHY THE SECRECY ?  It is creating great concern now.  ...
 

Why do you think they are not forthcoming with the network operational details?
(Please add your suspicions ... )

Sectorisation is known and has been known for at least 5 years ..

Minister Bailey has admitted there will be changes. 
Of course there will be changes, trains will be routed via the CRR tunnels ( well one would hope they would hey    )

Some possible explanations for the lack of transparency:

1.  They realise they have botched the track layout Northside and are too embarrassed 

2.  Concerned about Brisbane Airtrain possible changes (really depends on what the contracts state).

3.  Hubris - we know best ' there is a born to rule ' mentality that pervades the upper echelons of this Government.

4.  They know the project outcomes will not match the political spin promises made so far and wish to minimise the harsh feedback period 
(surprise! It will make it worse IMHO).

Victoria is demonstrating the correct approach to handling the significant rail network changes that will rightly occur when their Metro Tunnel is commissioned. 
It just appears to be bungled incompetence here Queensland sadly.

Put that in your pipe          !

I think you've hit the nail on the head pretty well there Bob. I think they realise commuters won't be happy with the new through running plans due to the botched northern portal, and Airtrain will be even less happy. Trying to keep it under wraps until the last possible minute so they're not called out on it until it's too late.

In a more optimistic world, maybe they're holding it under wraps because there's late plans to change the northern junction at Mayne. But I wouldn't get my hopes up

Definitely 4. As this is how transport planning is done in SEQ! Suggest project, market/sell project for political purpose, project not linked to any type of network capacity assessment or design!

Quote from: timh on June 07, 2022, 07:21:18 AMI think you've hit the nail on the head pretty well there Bob. I think they realise commuters won't be happy with the new through running plans due to the botched northern portal, and Airtrain will be even less happy. Trying to keep it under wraps until the last possible minute so they're not called out on it until it's too late.

In a more optimistic world, maybe they're holding it under wraps because there's late plans to change the northern junction at Mayne. But I wouldn't get my hopes up

Briefly, what is wrong with the Northern Portal? Is it that most trains will have to exit on to the Ferny Grove Line?

I don't consider that there is any problem with the northern portal, whatsoever.  There isn't even a problem with the North West Transit Corridor having a connection to it - plenty of room for that.  I envisage if that is ever built it would just look like the Joondalup / Mandurah line junctions west of Perth Station, which would also give you the option of running trains from the NWTC to Roma St surface platforms in the event of planned works or disruptions.  The fact there isn't a direct tunnel from Roma Street towards Kelvin Grove Road is of no concern to me at all.

The issue of most concern is the track layout north of Bowen Hills which does not appear to make optimum use of the existing 2 track pairs once CRR is off and running.  While expensive to fix it is nowhere near on the same level of cost or complexity as having to rebuild the tunnel.

The southside is the issue.  Park Road, Boggo Road and Dutton Park are all a complete mess and I do not think it will be easy to fix.

Reason 5.

Been suggested by others that they don't know yet how the network will operate!

I find that one very difficult to believe but it is out there.  If that is the case this project is far worse than any of us have ever imagined.

 

Nothing is outside the realms of possibility. QLD Gov. did open a rail line and then didn't have enough staff or trains on hand to operate it. So it DID happen.

We also had trains that didn't have wheelchair clearance and went into denial about that for a long time before that surfaced.

Springfield line was originally going to be single track (!!). And then there are bits and pieces of half-done works such as the gradual removal of single track from the Gold Coast line (thankfully all fixed now, should have been double all the way).

Find it hard to believe that a tunnel would be built without the operational plan, particularly as we have had three iterations of the tunnel over 10 years and I remember going to meetings with RBOT and we did raise this with TMR. Particularly in relation to the Beenleigh line as Beenleigh trains would be arriving on the surface at Roma Street but also in the tunnel at Roma Street CRR underground which could lead to people sitting on stairs and running between locations based on when the next train would appear.

Yo, we know the basic network plan was in the business case.
That's a prequiste to construction, track, stabling etc.

They know, the authorities just want to keep details hidden.

I think this must be the only major rail project to not make these details available well in advance.

The level of detail available for the Melbourne Metro Tunnel makes our mob look like amateurs ... 😶

The level of detail available matches the level of interest TMR and their Minister have in active and public transport being the primary mode of transport in SEQ and major centres.  AKA!!! NONE!!!

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1534188990282145792

Been booked for an interview with ABC Brisbane Drive at 4:30pm 13th June 2022.

Subject: "CRR Rail network when it opens and what we know so far?"

I will point out as able, that Queensland is the only jurisdiction that has not made this information publicly available in a timely manner, for similar large scale rail projects.  For example, Melbourne's Metro Tunnel which completes in 2025, the same year as CRR completes, has the all the details of how the network will be, including individual line diagrams - see https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/projects/metro-tunnel/about/overview/benefits-for-your-train-line and has been available for years ...